A word of caution on paper air cleaner elements.

Multi69s

Many of the cheaper air cleaners come with paper elements, not K&N style cloth elements. Your engines could see a shorter lifespan due to this. My experience is a little different then most, but it can also affect your engines as well. In my configuration, I have a very short intake tract. That coupled with the cam overlap is giving me times of intake stand off under certain conditions. The car is definitely drivable, but I will be working to remedy this condition in the next few days.

However, I took the car on a 300 mile road trip last weekend. When I pulled off the air cleaners to do some jetting, there was major damage to the air cleaner elements. I found multiple holes in the elements that were the diameter of a pencil's lead. This means that you can be sucking in all kinds of dirt and other items into the engine. What I believe has happened, is that the standoff makes the element wet. Then the intake suction is actually pulling loose pieces of the element.

Most of you will not have this situation, but if your engine is coughing back through the carbs, it will probably end up with the same damage as I have found, just take a little longer. So if you have the paper elements, keep an eye on them.
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modok · Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:46 pm Post subject:

I had zero trouble with paper filters, save for they don't like water. 7 1/4 spectre brand cheapos. The aircleaner bases I made for them had 2" velocity stacks UNDER the level of the filter so standoff was not a problem. I do not know what kind of junk you have bought, I've never seen any paper filters sold in a bubblepack so...... what did you do???LOL

LivinInnaVWBus · Samba Member Joined: October 07, 2013 Posts: 968

Paper elements are typically much more restrictive, but also much more effective than the K&N style oil filters.
The company I work for is a K&N dealer, I can get the stuff at cost but choose not to. K&N isn't all it's cracked up to be but I field calls all day long from people brainwashed by the ads.
Your oil will get dirty much quicker, you'll likely lose fuel economy(rather than gain, as they claim), the oil can contaminate 02/MAF sensors AND they can cause you to rebuild your carb sooner... all for a power gain most never notice.

ach60 · Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:24 pm Post subject:

In '73 VW went to paper filters which had been the norm for most other manufactures for at least 10 years prior.
VW used the same size filter on Beetles, Rabbits, Dashers, and what ever else they where making from 73 till the mid 80's
If K & N was that great, then you'd see it on a vehicles from the factory.
I put a K&N on my '99 New Beetle, no more than 3 months later the MAFS died, VW replaced free, the second time the MAS died, again VW replaced for free, and I got rid of the K&N.
Never had another MAFS fail again.
It's better to just run the OG VW filter system you have.
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Multi69s · Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:42 pm Post subject:

earthquake · Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:12 pm Post subject:

If any of you guys are using one of those 6 3/8" - 6 1/2" cheap chrome filters on you stock Solex's I found this filter fit my housing perfect, and its taller then the one that came stock.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Replacement-Washable...34084.html

Casey
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Multi69s · Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:12 am Post subject:

Paper elements are perfectly fine for stock type intake systems, but notice I posted in the performance forum. In here we run into situations that you would never see in stock or near stock applications. You won't see standoff or inversion in a typical single carb motor (at least not much), however, when your carbs are only 2" above the heads, everything goes out the window.
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mark tucker · Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:50 am Post subject:

Boolean · Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:39 am Post subject:

I have done a dyno test comparing no filter/Genuine K&N/stock type paper filter.
Actually, there was no measureable difference in power between the three.
I know from my own experience that the K&N lets fine sand through.
Papers do not.
Test was done on a 300+ hp turbo engine.
I will not let K&N near an engine I care about.
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Mr.Duncan · Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:27 pm Post subject:

I use the VW of mexico style air cleaner (or late 73'-75' carb plastic air cleaner)

Works fine.

As you can see Amsoil paper air filters are the best, (but expensive) So I use Napa Gold air filters.

You can see the "high flow" K&N is really high flow, however it does let a ton more particles in.

Very interesting article to read.

http://www.gmtruckcentral.com/articles/air-filter-study.html

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nextgen · Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:27 pm Post subject:

As Mulit69 pointed out this is performance NG. Yes Paper flows great stock. But for some of our engines you will need a very big filter to flow the air our engines need. Again it is a balance big paper filters and change them in a timely manner. If you are not a sand buggy, clean and oil your K&N filters regularly you will not have a problem.

Something I never told anyone. I have the same K&N filters on my bug since 1990 and moved them from car to car. The bug I have now has them on it for over 120k the engine is T-4 914. The only problem I have is the rubber on the top and bottom of each filther, is no longer soft. I is like steel, I have to use foam gaskets top and bottom of each one.

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Boolean · Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:51 pm Post subject:

I'm pretty sure the stock 1600 paperfilter flows enough for 300 hp.
Not the plastic housing though. Those are almost always a restriction on every car I modified.
The only reason to use a K&N air filter would be that they look cool. And cool won't bring you home. Much like chrome.
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mark tucker · Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:48 pm Post subject:

I have the china k&n..kang&nong?? that came with my empi hpmx crabs, Ive always ran the prefilters on them so they stay clean, back in the old days when I ran duell 4 bbls on tunnel ram sticking out of the hood I used paper elements, they were about $4 each and got changed every 2 months.
for my bug the kang&nong work as fine as frogs hair. Ive had a new set of k&n's for about 4 years on the shelf,but...not untill I need them, I also have the king kong filters for someday....Im still awaiting for the calander that has someday on it. Wink

jsturtlebuggy · Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:30 pm Post subject:

R2C filters are working for me. I have one on my Subaru Manxter and on my VW powered buggy. Pacific Customs sell a larger variety of sizes and shapes. Also Speedway Motors carries the 14in round ones.
I no longer have silt on my throttle plate the K&N was allowing to get through. They do discolor with age. I also cover them with Outwears. They can be blown out with low psi compressed air.

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Aerindel · Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 3:40 am Post subject:

Everything I have ever read says that paper filters are more effective.

K&N where built with high flow in mind first and filtering ability second as an improvement for street racers who where going with no filters at all previously.

I think they are little more than a gimmick for normal driving.

Yes, you can wash them but for the price of one K&N you can buy dozens of paper filters, enough to last you many years, and give your engine better protection to boot.

Every new car on the market comes with paper filters, I refuse to believe that that new cars costing tens of thousands of dollars are designed around paper filters in order to save a $100 bucks.

It sounds to me like the OP doesn't have a paper filter problem,he has an intake design problem.

It also makes no sense that a 'wet' filter would weaken as paper filters are not made from water or gasoline soluble paper.
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udidwht · Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:00 pm Post subject:

Multi69s · Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:47 pm Post subject:

I Ride Sand · Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:16 pm Post subject:

modok · Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:27 pm Post subject:

Good possibility it is an exhaust tuning problem. Collector ID bigger than 2"??
yeah, wet paper does not flow!! Paper swells and absorbs water but synthetic materials do not, and so why aren't we using synthetics???

I have the r2c filters on now, seeing how they hold up to the fuel fog, so far, good!

OLD VW NUT · Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:43 pm Post subject:

The first time I read about fuel fog standoff was in Bill Fisher's How to Hotrod VW motors. At that time I owned 2 VWs - one bone stock 68 deluxe bug and a 64 deluxe bug. The 64 was my 'test bed' for modifying both cars. What worked on the 64 was transfered over to the 68 - the wife's dd. I had a stock 1500 single port in the 64 and decided to use an after market air cleaner since they look better than the oil bath cleaner. And the oil bath was a PITA to clean and refill - I'm a lazy man! I noticed almost immediately the paper filter wasn't holding up - it began to get holes in the filter. I went back to the stock filter. Maybe a year later I bought Fisher's book - after reading that section where he outlined the fuel fog problem I understood why that paper filter was falling apart. It did smell like gas.

Fisher mentions that all the VW air cleaner designs have a built in fuel fog containment to them. With those fancy little air cleaners all a guy needs to do to contain the fog and prevent possible lean condition is to add a 2-3" piece of pipe - metal or plastic (fuel friendly) to raise the paper filter up and away from the fog.

Even long manifold IDF/HPMX setups such as I have are not immune to fuel fog standoff. EMPI has several videos on youtube showcasing their carb's performance. A couple of those clearly show the fuel fog hanging over the tops of the carbs when the motors are pulling hard on the dyno - even with the velocity stacks - which I always run with.

I've mentioned this to guys that have paper filters on their motors where there is no area for fuel fog containment - I usually get <crickets> in response. Oh well - live and learn.

Anyone know where I can get paper filters for 44 HPMX/IDF carbs?
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