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411/412 004 four speed trans rebuild (new 12-7 @ 12:51 pm)
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:43 pm    Post subject: Re: 411/412 004 four speed trans rebuild (new 12-7 @ 12:51 Reply with quote

Update for 10-11-2015:

I got into a little bit of what I am posting today... on the opening page. And since I cannot go back and edit that page now....I have to get into these items here. The problem with doing this as I go along in this format.... is the fact that it becomes a really long strung out narrative. So...I will be making a PDF document of this not far off.

I believe there is too much risk during something that will be this detailed that people will miss important items.


So the parts washer and its solvent are now spic-and-span. Very Happy

But before I go any further...I want to get into some specifics about what we are going to be doing with this transmission....as well as some things based on my experiences with this specific gearbox type....that I dont think you should do.

What items be addressed during this rebuild/refurbishment:

Starting from the tailcone end:

1. Cracked tailcone repair

2. Replacement tailcone rubber bushing/buffer (made/cast)

3. Replace shift lever shaft seal and guide bushing on tailcone. This is three parts. This assembly uses an outer bronze shift lever seal housing (hockey stick) bushing part # 001 301 209. This is available from Weddle industries https://www.weddleindustries.com/product/1000697
This uses a seal of part # 001 301 227...also available from Weddle, CIP.1 and many others.

This part changes: From chassis # 412 2041 028 a part # of 004 301 223 is used. I dont yet know what the difference is.

The inner bronze bush for the shaft is part # 001 301 207..also available from Weddle and is also listed as a pilot bushing for Jetta and golf mk 1 and 2

4. tailcone to gear case gasket making and replacement

5. Add snapring access holes for the mainshaft special "E-clip" in the mainshaft bearing hub

6. Adding anti-rotation pin for the countershaft along with a notch for it to lock into in the gear case boss.

7. Replacing counter shaft needle bearings (with needles when possible but otherwise with Torlon or Bronze bushings)

8. Repairing a worn mainshaft ball-bearing bore in the case (not necessary on this transmission but about 75% of them will need this so I will outline it)

9. Specs, materials and methods for making a new countershaft when necessary. Two of my transmission will need this. All of them will need this if you let them run too long without either replacing needle bearings or installing bushings.

10. Adding 120 degree spaced oil reliefs on each end of counter gear. This is a modification. This goes a long way toward correcting the poor oiling of the needle bearings. We may be making an oil deflector for the oiling hole as well.

11. Marking all gears, synchros and hubs for direction and location with a scriber. YOU MUST DO THIS AND I WILL DETAIL WHY LATER.

12. Replace synchro hub sliding dog springs ...when or if necessary ...and if we can get them. In 412's from chassis # 413 2000 001 they were part #113-311-249A....and are the ONLY non 004 pre-fix (strictly type 4, 004 transmission) part number in the entire mainshaft assembly.

13. Measure all synchro gaps and replace/upgrade by swapping out parts from other transmissions if necessary....its rare.
*** We may be making mods to the sliders similar to what Weddle does. I have to inspect teh wear patterns. It may be a long night for each hub with a diamond needle file on a light table if its worthwhile.

14. Measure mainshaft axial play and calculate shim (if needed). We will never be replacing this part.
Unless "new" gears are being swapped in...you will never need to change this part. We are measuring to make sure of the condition of the gear stack...and ascertain what shim/spacer is supposed to be here and that it has not been worn. If its worn and does not match the thickness stamped on it...we can replace it (have one made really)

From the factory, the mainshaft gear stack height and tolerance is set.... relative to the dimensions of the case housing section it is in....and to allow proper clearance and pressure to operate the synchronizers.
Once that is done at the factory....the countershaft is set to run with gears center-lined on the mainshaft gears (within a tolerance range)...and held in place ...again relative to the case dimensions...with a thrust washer on each end whose dimension is custom set for the case. There are a range of thrust washer increments that were available for setting this. Once the gear set is worn in...you cant change it...you must maintain it. If a thrust washer is worn....we renew it to original thickness.

WHAT THIS MEANS:...in short...if you ever damage the gear or differential case and have to replace either from another transmission.....even if no internal parts were changed...you will for sure have to get new thrust washers for the countershaft ...and they may need to be made custom as the factory increments may be between what the countershaft needs to have to stay where it is supposed to be......and very possibly (about 50% chance) you may need to adjust the main shaft spacer shim between 1/2 and 3/4 gear sets.

15. Replace the differential side bearings

16. Check and adjust ring gear to pinion gear backlash

17. Set differential side bearing pre-load and mark adjusting rings.

18. The o-rings on the differential side bearing adjusters.

19. Replace the differential output shaft side seals

20. Verify the side play of spacer ring between CV hubs and differential housing.....while simultaneously verifying that the tolerances inside of the differential for the side thrust washers are correct as well as the output shaft centering spacer.

WHAT THIS MEANS: If you find any play in the outer CV hub relative to differential...that is NOT from axial play from worn splines (about 50% of all 004 transmissions have some).....we will First open the differential and using simple inspection as well as by the book methods....make sure that the play found at the CV hubs is not caused by a worn center spacer in the differential between the side output shafts (very common) or even more common...worn thrust washers between the side output shaft gears and the differential housing.

It is MOST common in early miles too have worn outer ring spacers right behind the CV hub if the seals have been leaking and the area is not kept clean...or if the CV hubs have been run with loose or missing snap rings. That is an easy fix. New ones of several sizes are not hard to find. It is the same part as an 091 transmission.

The problem is that if it runs for too many miles....the in and out movement allowed to the CV hub puts in and out load on the differential side gearing. The thrust washers usually wear before the tube spacer between the gears because the spacer is hardened.

But once the thrust shims get a certain amount of wear...increasing the lateral movement....the tube spacer begins to wear. During this increasing in and out movement ....the mesh depth of the spider gears becomes alternately too deep and too shallow causing extreme wear because the spider gears have very long and high gear ratio teeth (makes for quick cornering under power like no other ACVW transmission has). The end result will eventually destroy ANY 004 transmission. When a tooth chips it dumps the debris directly onto the ring and pinion mesh area.


21. Measure and verify pinion gear to crown wheel mating distance from differential centerline. Remove pinion/mainshaft and verify locating shim thickness.

22. Replace pinion shaft bearings and adjust preload

23. Adjust pinion gear to ring gear back lash

24. Mark adjustments and remove ring and pinion and mainshaft

25. Check rolling resistance to spec of each assembly and re-install.

26. New Input shaft seal

27. New gaskets for detent plunger cover

28. New gasket for reverse idler gear cover

29. New gasket for cover plate

30. Measure gear slider fork tolerances. Its rare that these are bad. If they are worn out, either swap in parts from another transmission or you can have them TIG welded to build them up and then surface ground to tolerance.

NOTE: I will be settiing u a simple fixture to preload new bearings and races...and run them under load for break-in in oil on a a drill press. I want to be able to install them using pre-load for broken in bearings. It is more accurate. It is impossible to readjust pinion shaft pre-load after assembly without a total tear down...so i would rather get best adjustment dimensions up front.

There may be more items. I will work to find and include them before this page expires and I can no longer edit.

Some things NOT TO DO:


This is from my experiences and some directed research here and there.

1. We will not be reusing ANY bearings (except for the mainshaft needle bearings and only after thorough inspection and measurement). There is no acceptable amount of wear in a 004 transmission.

Unlike a bug, type 3 or 091 or 002 transmission.....where I can find a replacement for any of those within a month or less, you could go for a year or more to find a replacement 004 transmission. You cannot afford to be judicious about bearings by reasoning that the good German bearings inside have many more mile left in them.
On these transmissions....anything less than perfect...known mileage on a needle or roller bearing...and pristine conditions for all surfaces...means when the bearing gives out....the destruction will be great and irreplaceable. Some of this is insured due to the hypoid gear set final drive.

It is not as robust in working through minor damage as the same type of gear set in a 003 automatic transmission.....because the 003 has a cast iron carrier housing for the final drive. The 004 is aluminum. I have shattered two final drive housings.

2. Needle bearings MUST be run on the same area of shaft and in the same direction. You cannot flip or move needle bearings or roller bearings.

Observe:

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To the naked eye and to touch/feel....the countershaft and needle bearing set in this transmission ...most would clean...oil and re-use. This is exactly how these two parts look to my eyes under good light.

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When carefully light to show the imperfections....this is what is REALLY there. These marks cannot be "felt" by fingernail. You can feel them if you drag a sharb pick or scribe across them...more as a "rumble"...than as grooves. That is because these grooves are only maybe 1-2 microns deep (if that much). But...they are damage to the hardened surfaces.

Flipping the bearing end for end, running a different used bearing in its place on the shaft, running a new shaft with this used bearing and even running a new bearing on this shaft....will result in RAPID wear.

Rapid at this scale of time is between 10,000 and 30,000 miles. In that time the needle bearings will literally cut a groove in the shaft.

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You can see the same wear on the needle bearing at the other end with careful lighting.

The pictures will be better now that I am on the other workbench and can carefully light and use all of my equipment. Very Happy

3. The mainshaft needle bearings are a different type and have much less load (or actually a different type of load). Most of the mainshaft load is held by the mainshaft ball bearing and the two pinion bearings.

The only time I have seen visible or measurable wear to the nylon caged needle bearings....is when the transmission has been run on little or no oil or on water/dirt contaminated oil.

That dos not mean that the surfaces are not worn or broken into the needle bearings. So....when we pull four sets of mainshaft two row needle bearings....we will mark them for location and direction on the shaft....and keep each set of needle oriented as to what direction and what cage they were installed in. They will go back to the exact position on the shaft.


3. We will not be using excessive RTV or gasketing. The gaskets in this transmission...especially the gasket between gear case and differential case....have specific thickness must be accounted for by the countershaft position and thrust washer. So..we will be measuring the gasket thickness and making gaskets whose crushed thickness will duplicate factory.

I am sure there will be more to come. Ray
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Lars S
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ray, many thanks for this thread, Im following with greatest intrest!

raygreenwood wrote:



...
I say this because there are a pair of slanted sloped mounting holes in the rear croasmember.....that would very nearly meet up with the tailcone mounting yoke of the 914 -901 trans. Thesd holes are unused on type 4 cars for anything that i have ever seen.
...


Is it possibly the hole to the left in this image you mean? If so I have found out how it was used; for the wire to second heater control box at the heat exchangers which was fitted on on each side on cars with the M202 (improved heating ) package.

/Lars S

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lars S wrote:
Ray, many thanks for this thread, Im following with greatest intrest!

raygreenwood wrote:



...
I say this because there are a pair of slanted sloped mounting holes in the rear croasmember.....that would very nearly meet up with the tailcone mounting yoke of the 914 -901 trans. Thesd holes are unused on type 4 cars for anything that i have ever seen.
...


Is it possibly the hole to the left in this image you mean? If so I have found out how it was used; for the wire to second heater control box at the heat exchangers which was fitted on on each side on cars with the M202 (improved heating ) package.

/Lars S

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Ah!....that explains what those are for! I have never seen a car fitted with the extra heater control boxes and cables! Thank you!

Learn something every day! Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:50 pm    Post subject: Re: 411/412 004 four speed trans rebuild (new 12-7 @ 12:51 Reply with quote

Since I cant update the time stamp of the original title any longer. ...I hope those that are interested are watching the date and time.

It will be a large update in the am. I am writing this because I just got out of the garage.

This transmission has been normal.....as you will see in a LARGE update in the am......until I removed the third speed bushing. I noticed right away that two small locking plates were missing on the main shaft spacer. Upon removing the spacer....holy crap!.......I have never worked on one like this!

It has a three piece third gear synchronizer.... with a steel face!......that looks really similar to what came in the 901 in the Porsche 914. There was information in the books that for a short period of time.....a three piece synchro was used in early models. I thought those were very early.....like European only and 19mm slave cylinder.

Since its clear that this trans has been at minimum 50% diassemled before. ...due to the sealant on the gaskets......its possible that either this was ine of the interem gearboxes between early with 19mm slave. ..and late standardized. ......or was heavily rebuilt using early or middle years parts.

Either way....very interesting....pictures on the way! Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:51 pm    Post subject: Re: 411/412 004 four speed trans rebuild (new 12-7 @ 12:51 Reply with quote

3-piece synchronizers were introduced in August 72 (73 modell, early 73s have still one piece synchros). But on second gear - are you sure you found them on third ? So 3-piece synchros should be found in 73 and 74 type 4s.

by the way: Volkswagen reintroduced the 3-piece synchros in 88 for the Passat and said it was a big innovation... And around 2012 I saw a DCT transmission on a fair: Those Volkswagen guys told me, that they now have 3-piece synchros... No one would believe me that they already had this 40 years earler.

Joerg
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:36 pm    Post subject: Re: 411/412 004 four speed trans rebuild (new 12-7 @ 12:51 Reply with quote

lhd_service wrote:
3-piece synchronizers were introduced in August 72 (73 modell, early 73s have still one piece synchros). But on second gear - are you sure you found them on third ? So 3-piece synchros should be found in 73 and 74 type 4s.

by the way: Volkswagen reintroduced the 3-piece synchros in 88 for the Passat and said it was a big innovation... And around 2012 I saw a DCT transmission on a fair: Those Volkswagen guys told me, that they now have 3-piece synchros... No one would believe me that they already had this 40 years earler.

Joerg


Hello Joerg! Than you for the insight! The books are sketchy on these transmissions.

Yes...you are correct...it was second gear.


Also...this is an FC series. I have been inside of FC, FA and FE series...and have been in several of each....and NEVER seen the three piece synchro. i had only read about them.

Having been inside of a few of each series and never seen the three piece synchro...it makes me wonder about production variability.

Wouldn't FC starting in August of 1970 be tooo early? But then again...it ran long enough that they could have started the three piece synchro mid-series.

Also..since this transmission has been fully opened at some point and is in very good condition...perhaps someone swapped cases (which is a bit of an undertaking as I have done this before)....which "may" entail new main stack and for sure new countershaft shims.

Either way...its a very interesting synchro design. What surprised me was when I got to the mainshaft spacer between 2nd and third gears....and there were no locking plates! When I removed the 3rd speed bush and spacer and then 2nd gear.....I had to say out loud ...."what is that!!!?"

Laughing

Also since you appear to be a professional transmission man....please feel to comment on any of my methods. For instance...and I may as well start this update here in another post iin a few minutes. Please comment on my methods!

Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:52 pm    Post subject: Re: 411/412 004 four speed trans rebuild (new 12-7 @ 12:51 Reply with quote

Update for 12-14-2015

A little bit of information up front on how I am proceeding. Please comment on this! Thank you!

How I like to proceed on dismantlement:

Not being a transmission professional....but having some experience at least with these transmissions...and being cognizant that I am not doing a full rebuild....just a deep refurbishment (bearings, seals, adjustment, cleaning)...and that not all tooling is at my disposal so I will have to improvise at a precise level......and having read alot...and spoken to quite a few transmission mechanics.....this is how I proceed with all of that in mind:

1. I dismantle the gear stack in order.

2. In a notebook (and with camera now) I record any markings found on each part and their relationship to the part above them and below them in the stack.

3. If there are no markings on the part noting which direction they face on the mainshaft or what position with respect too adjacent gearing.....I scribe marks on non-critical surfaces and note them iin my notebook

4. Because these transmissions are medium to high mileage....parts have worn into each other. If the transmission was shifting properly when torn down (or is unknown/un-driven by me).....I mark the position of the synchro hub to the slider and also the brass synchro ring as these have been running against each other for some time.
I dont mark the steel tooth wheel attached to the speed gears...as those are free-wheeling when not engaged.

5. I mark the sliding dogs or clutch keys on the ends so I know the direction they have been running. I also mark keys for position so they go back in the same slots in the clutch hubs.

6. The sliding /key dog springs....are cleaned one at a time and put back into the hub in the exact same degree position it was. The spring tension from key to key is variable to some extent and they have been running this way. If I replace them...which i might in this build if i can get them....they will be going back in the original position.

7. Needle bearings are marked on their plastic shells to direction they are running on the shaft, and what gear they are running with. They are never swapped or moved around. If the needle rollers need to be removed....they are kept in proper left right orientation and washed in a magnetic dish so that they dont roll around out of orientation.

8. All parts are cleaned one at a time in a clean parts washer bath with new solvent. I use either/both brass and nylon brushes. No steel or stainless steel. After the parts are blown dry they get a final rinse/wash in brand new 50/50 acetone and MEK mixture to remove any last residue or small debris. They are blown dry and immediately oiled with WD-40 and placed in order on a clean plastic film covered workbench.

Some transmission experts I have spoken to have also noted that in gearboxes that have been running well for a long time...they proceed this way as well.

Others have noted that when gearboxes that have been running for long periods that do not have overly worn synchros...but are getting loose or sloppy in gear selection....they mark these parts coming out and then rotate them at least one sector...90 degrees to get fresh wear paths.

Any thoughts on my methods are welcome!


Mainshaft gearing removal:

First...a couple of simple tools you should have:

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A carbide scriber pencil for marking parts

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Several magnetic parts dishes. these are $2.99 each at Harbor Freight. They are great for putting critical parts in and using the dish in the parts washer.


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This was another important hint that this transmission has been serviced to at least some level. You can see the gasket sealant on the differential housing. The factory did not use sealant to my knowledge.

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The small dent...just above the black dot I drew on the silver spacer bushing at the bottom of the gear stack...is also a common thing that happens when trying to re-install this disc....when you dont use either a press or proper non-marring mallets....is another indicator that this transmission has been stripped all the way down at some point. there is no need to remove this disc unless you plan to remove the differential.

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This is the first piece to remove. This the mainshaft ball bearing hub and fourth gear. It simply lifts off to expose the 4th gear needle bearings.
The needle bearings are not hard to find...but replacing them will depend on what quality I can get.

NOTE: these needle bearings have metallic cages. DO NOT scribe on them. Take them out and place them in the magnetic dish...one needle bearing set in each dish. You can scribe the magnetic dishes to preserve order and orientation.

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There is no need to remove the large snap ring in this picture unless you plan to replace the mainshaft ball bearing. This one is very smooth and they are very tough and robust. The amount of pressure required to press the bearing from this hub is HUGE. Don't mess with it unless its required. Wash the splined hub and bearing as a unit.


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These are the markings on the 4th gear slider hub...facing in the direction of the tailcone and 4th gear ball bearing (which is the direction I have noted in my notebook that all orientation marks will face during this build) the one on the left...obviously a VW logo. I dont know what the middle mark is. It looks like a double stamped "G" or "0". The one on the right is a double stamped "1".

I chose to use the mark in the middle because it coincides between two teeth on the clutch hub that are precisely in the middle of a sector between two sliding keys which also coincides between balance teeth sectors on the brass synchro ring. An easy set-up.

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So I made a scribe line here on the brass ring right above a center mark. The black line below it is artificial...just point to the "G" I am aligning with

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I also scribed marks on the two teeth of the synchro hub flanking my centerline mark on the synchro ring...again the black marks are artificial so you can see where better.

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I repeated the same marking procedure on the third gear synchro ring directly below the ones made on the synchro ring above.

You can now remove the upper synchro ring and slider....BUT....BEFORE YOU REMOVE THE HUB!

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Scribe the end of each sliding key to note orientation

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This is the scribe mark on the end of a key held on a magnet

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Slide the hub upward slowly until the keys tilt out towards the bottom

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Wrap your hand or a rubber band around the hub to keep the keys from springing out. In this way you can put them on the work bench iin order of where they came out of the hub.

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Note the position of the spring wires on top and bottom. Notice how they alternate and overlap. Leave them where they are for now. If they dont have enough tension to stay in on their own...make not in your note book, take a picture...and not having tension is a dead giveaway to replace them.

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This lock plate for the snap ring...is strangely not shown in the parts catalog. I believe it is similar or identical to one found in type 1 or type 3 but for now do not destroy it pry lightly and it will pop out.
Under it is the snap ring.

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This is identical in difficulty to removing as the snap ring on CV axle hubs. IT IS NOT THE SAME SNAP RING...do your best to not destroy or bend it. You will need stout snap ring pliers and a small screwdriver.

Later on reassembly I will show how to use a dremel tool or files to put small grooves in the end of this snap ring to fit the snap ring pliers to make removal and replacement simpler.

This snap ring should have a fairly tight fit in the groove. It should only spin when installed with moderate to high pressure from a screwdriver or pick. If its very loose or easily spins...there has been a bit of where in the gear stack. You will have to source a newer thicker one, then file to fit tight.

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This synchro hub is not very tight but will generally not pull out with hand pressure unless you are very strong. I sued a simple puller and used aluminum washers on the lower end.

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It should pull loose just with hand pressure on the screw. Very simple.

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With the hub off you can see my scribe markings for synchro ring and slider reference.

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And you can get a full view of the upper and lower sliding key spring positions.

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Here is where we are. The silver tube around the shaft just below the visible splines is the third gear bush (no needle bearing on third gear). BUT..its orientation should also be preserved.

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This bushing slips right off.

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I scribe a fine line just on the edge for orientation towards the shaft end.

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This spacer is important. It lifts right off.
It was used to set the spacing between 4th/3rd and 2nd/1st gear clusters primarily to match the countershaft gears. If new gears are installed anywhere on the shaft...it is this spacer that needs to be recalculated and replaced. Note its shape and orientation in your notebook.

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There were eight different thickness sizes with different part #'s available. It is a special shim..because its hardened, precision ground and has cut-outs for lock plates in the ID.

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This is where it got strange to me! I was expecting two thin lock plates that slip into recesses in this gear ...second gear....no lock plates...no recesses inn the gear.

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Carefully lift the gear off. There is a needle bearing assembly in the center.

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Top of the gear showing oil relief grooves.

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Bottom of gear and synchro...note the three slots (sorry for the poor picture i will replace it in the am)...these index to the steel face of the three piece synchro hub.

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Here is the needle bearing. I am scribing the plastic carrier for orientation and position in the gear stack. The other one below should be done the same way.

NOTE: the small square "keys" in the top picture...of the ring that is plugged into the synchro ring.

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I mark orientation of synchro rings to hug and slider the same way as I did for the 4th/3rd slider and synchro rings with a scribe line.

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Here is the inner brass syncro ring and its steel driving/friction face that operates in the lower brass receiver ring. I will have a picture set later on all of this for clarity.

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Scribing hub and sycnhro

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Scribe marks between slider and hub teeth

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I have scribed and removed the sliding key, needle nearing and slider hub.

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The hub pulls off with about as much or a little less force than the 4/3 hub.

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last needle bearing set. Scribe and mark this one for orientation as well.

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removing the reverse gear. It should slide off easily.

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You are looking at the mainshaft, the case centering bushing ring (which i will remove in the next installment), the splined adjusting ring for pinion bearing preload and the inner pinion bearing underneath it.

The plan moving forward:

1. Remove the case centering ring.

2. Remove the pinion shaft assembly..complete.

3. Mark both side adjuster rings for the differential bearings.

4. Only remove the one opposite the ring gear...counting exact turns for removal.

5. Inspect pinion and differential bearings and clean thoroughly.

6. Clean the case housing

7. Reinstall the differential to exact position...without the pinion shaft assembly.

8. Oil bearings and check pre-load by rotation. Record that.

9. Remove differential and install the pinion assembly

10. Oil pinion bearings an check preload by rotation. Record that.

11. Reinstall both pinion and differential and take critical measurements before proceeding further.

More to come! Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:40 pm    Post subject: Re: 411/412 004 four speed trans rebuild (new 12-7 @ 12:51 Reply with quote

Transmission codes for the 004 startet with FA for all models in 68 (69 models). The FA should have a 11:41 r&p (3.73 ratio). FC startet in 70 (71 models) with 11:43 r&p (3.91 ratio), as far as I see for the station wagon (type 46). FE (r&p 10:39 / 3.90 ratio) startet somewhere around 71 first for police station wagon (I think not because of "faster" r&p but the teeth might be thicker and stronger on these). in late 73 (all 74 models) all station wagons got the FE. Since production stopped in May 74 this were only few. Since this information is compiled from technical literature there still might be errors in it. I couldn't check all informations on cars. I would expect to find 3-piece synchros in all transmission codes depending on time of build. In this years VW didn't change codes for all minor changes as they did in later years.

And yes I'm a professional meanwhile but I didn't disassemble a 004 up to now (did mainly 002, 091, 094 and 4WD syncro transmissions, at the moment I'm working on a 001 beetle stick shift transmission). Therefore I follow with interest your story. I like your approach about marking parts and keep things in the right order. Also the importance of measuring things before disassembly, something I certainly agree with. I also like the thoughts about importance of thickness of gaskets etc. And I agree that it is not necessary to replace all bearings, most of them can run for a very long time without problems. Especially the needle bearings in the toothed gears are not under heavy load all of the time. They don't move when the gear is engaged and in other cases just run with a difference speed between shaft and gear. E.g. when mainshaft is running with engine speed (appr 800-5000 rpm) the needle bearing might only be on several 100 rpm forward or backwards to the main shaft depending on gear engaged and engine speed.

Some other remarks: In my experience it's often necessary to press a bearing or synchro hub in mounting direction before removing snap rings since they tend to move against the rings. With ball bearings I remove the plastic ring between the balls (you can snap this type out and back in position with some care without problems). You can then inspect inner and outer ring for wear and damage which could hardly be seen with the plastic cage in place. With my 001 we knew this transmission was noisy, but all parts seemed fine on first sight. But the main ball bearing had tiny dents in both rings and also on the balls which could be found after removing the cage, cleaning the bearing in solvent and under good light. A magnifying lens is of good help in this inspection!

Joerg
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:08 am    Post subject: Re: 411/412 004 four speed trans rebuild (new 12-7 @ 12:51 Reply with quote

lhd_service wrote:
Transmission codes for the 004 startet with FA for all models in 68 (69 models). The FA should have a 11:41 r&p (3.73 ratio). FC startet in 70 (71 models) with 11:43 r&p (3.91 ratio), as far as I see for the station wagon (type 46). FE (r&p 10:39 / 3.90 ratio) startet somewhere around 71 first for police station wagon (I think not because of "faster" r&p but the teeth might be thicker and stronger on these). in late 73 (all 74 models) all station wagons got the FE. Since production stopped in May 74 this were only few. Since this information is compiled from technical literature there still might be errors in it. I couldn't check all informations on cars. I would expect to find 3-piece synchros in all transmission codes depending on time of build. In this years VW didn't change codes for all minor changes as they did in later years.

And yes I'm a professional meanwhile but I didn't disassemble a 004 up to now (did mainly 002, 091, 094 and 4WD syncro transmissions, at the moment I'm working on a 001 beetle stick shift transmission). Therefore I follow with interest your story. I like your approach about marking parts and keep things in the right order. Also the importance of measuring things before disassembly, something I certainly agree with. I also like the thoughts about importance of thickness of gaskets etc. And I agree that it is not necessary to replace all bearings, most of them can run for a very long time without problems. Especially the needle bearings in the toothed gears are not under heavy load all of the time. They don't move when the gear is engaged and in other cases just run with a difference speed between shaft and gear. E.g. when mainshaft is running with engine speed (appr 800-5000 rpm) the needle bearing might only be on several 100 rpm forward or backwards to the main shaft depending on gear engaged and engine speed.

Some other remarks: In my experience it's often necessary to press a bearing or synchro hub in mounting direction before removing snap rings since they tend to move against the rings. With ball bearings I remove the plastic ring between the balls (you can snap this type out and back in position with some care without problems). You can then inspect inner and outer ring for wear and damage which could hardly be seen with the plastic cage in place. With my 001 we knew this transmission was noisy, but all parts seemed fine on first sight. But the main ball bearing had tiny dents in both rings and also on the balls which could be found after removing the cage, cleaning the bearing in solvent and under good light. A magnifying lens is of good help in this inspection!

Joerg


Thank yoou very much!...and thank you for adding to my own and the community knowledge base!

The years may be why I have never seen the three piece synchros before.

In North America....short of a few "gray market" vehicles that came through Canada or possibly with military personnel or from tourist vehicles (my 412 was a tourist purchase by Canadian Air Force Personnel and then sold to an American School teacher in Frankfurt for final shipping home)......there were very few 004 equipped vehicles shipped.

And...virtually all were 2 door saloons.

Of most of these...few entered the country that were pre 1971. If they did....again...gray market.

Only two of the transmissions ...in driving cars...that I have seen...and one on a parts shelf...have been the early style with the 19mm slave cylinder. I have never been inside one of those...yet. I hope to acquire one by Christmas. And...its from an early 411 wagon. It will be interesting.

The rest of the series of transmission I have been inside of....have all been from either late 1971 and 1972 411 and 1973 412. I have never gotten one from a 1974 412...that I know of.

So most probably all of the boxes I have been inside...have been from the "middle years"....those between the early style transmissions with the small slave bell housing and the later models with the three-piece synchro.

That would be ....as you note...late 1973...which could have been some of the last D-jet injected 412's before switching to L-jet injected 1.8L.

Other odd notes through the years that others have found...is that at least for North America...all 2 doors with 004...only came with D-jet. And that all two door saloons to Northa America ...had 4 speed manual transmission....and that the two door saloon was not offered in the United States as an option. Only four door and variant.

Raises lots of questions.

I also checked my notebooks on what I have worked on. So far from what I can see....I have worked on one FA series. I thought that I had.

But...if FA was the earliest...1968-1969....it should have been the early style bell housing....which I have never been inside of. Is it possible that they changed bell housings middle of a series to the late bell housing?

Also....ALL 004 that I have found have been in 2 door saloons. Only my friends in Canada have seen wagons and four doors with 004.

The wagon that contains the early style 004 that I will be getting soon...is old enough and from far enough north that it most probably came through Canada (only about 5 hours from the Border)....always mysteries with these cars!
Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:01 pm    Post subject: Re: 411/412 004 four speed trans rebuild (new 12-7 @ 12:51 Reply with quote

I was thinking of the FA too yesterday during the day.

I now checked other sources:
spare parts list (appr. 73):
- The bell housing (which also carries differential) was changed with model 70. So the early style housing was in production for one year (69 model only from 08/68 to 07/69) and for saloon only.
- r&p was 11:41 (3.73) for saloons from start to model 70 and from mid 72 to end of production
- r&p was 11:43 (3.91) from start of variant (all) and saloons model 71 and part of 72
- r&p 10:39 is not covered in this spare parts list (too old)

the models:
68 were only saloon models available (type 41, 42)
variant / station wagon startet with model 70 (type 46)

exchange parts list (78):
lists transmissions FA and FC for saloons with 11:41 r&p
and transmissions FC and FE for variant with 10:39 r&p

I assume that this has to be understood as: If one ordered an exchange transmission he would get an 11:41 for saloon and 10:39 for variant and core would have been accepted with different equipment. It doesn't necessarily mean, that different code letters were equipped with the same r&p sets. Therefore I think with the 004 code letters indicate the r&p ratio and FA could be found with both bell housing types.

In Germany and rest of Europe most cars were equipped with manual transmission while US and Canada mostly had automatic transmissions. This is because of personel preferences (and maybe different road conditions and driving distances) and still the case today. It would be good if we could find people that could check above informations against real cars. Question would be car model and transmission code letters (manual only). One other hint is that code letters were mostly assigned without gaps (but not necessarily to one model). So I'm missing FB. FD and FF are listed as early rabbit transmissions, FB might be type 48 (which as far as I know wasn't sold in North America).

Joerg


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:14 pm    Post subject: Re: 411/412 004 four speed trans rebuild (new 12-7 @ 12:51 Reply with quote

I found something:

without guesswork 73:
FB is listed as saloon transmission with 11:41 r&p from May 72 to end of production. But this still means that FA should have been equipped with both types of bell housings / clutch slave cylinders.

Joerg
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:31 am    Post subject: Re: 411/412 004 four speed trans rebuild (new 12-7 @ 12:51 Reply with quote

lhd_service wrote:
I found something:

without guesswork 73:
FB is listed as saloon transmission with 11:41 r&p from May 72 to end of production. But this still means that FA should have been equipped with both types of bell housings / clutch slave cylinders.

Joerg


Excellent information yes!....... these were difficult to pin down. I will ho through my log book for my current two door saloon. I have every document ever generated for it. I also kept a log of all miles and work as ai,drove it.

At one point in time of my drivimh this car...the original transmission had problems. I obtained a replacement from a 2 door 411 wreck with a known history. This car has had three transmissions.

I generally write down all donor chassis #s for parts as well as part #s of old parts removed.

The first donor was a 72 411 2 door....mid year. My current 2 door is a november build 1972....which makes it a 1973. I will see if I have the trans codes and model #s. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: 411/412 004 four speed trans rebuild (new 12-7 @ 12:51 Reply with quote

Update for 12-17-2015

This is mainly a technical detail update. I have a few things to do for a few days....holidays and work...but just wanted to clarify a few details I have been showing in this build thread and that Joerg has made note of as well.

These items are:

1. The differences between normal two piece and three piece synchronizers

2. The repair of the broken tail cone (breaks on many 004 transmissions)

3. The repair of the clutch fork pivot point (breaks on EVERY 004 transmission)

NOTE: Digging through my parts stash from transmissions that have died or from those I salvaged but were not repairable as a complete unit....I found that I HAVE had a 004 with three piece synchro in my possession. I just never knew it, never drove on it and never worked with it. I bought it with a damaged differential as a parts core a long time ago. I stripped it, oiled teh parts and quickly put it in a box. This morning I started looking through boxes...and sure enough....three piece second gear synchro!


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This is the normal two piece synchro for third and fourth gears for a 004.

From left to right: the snout on the left normally has the large ball bearing on it.
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The gear on the left is fourth gear with its welded gear and male synchro hub

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The female brass synchro ring.

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The 3/4 synchro hub with keys and slider removed.

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The third gear female brass synchro ring.

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The third gear male synchro cone and gear welded to the third gear hub seen on the right

This two piece style is very common to most VW trans and many other cars. On most of the 004's that I have seen the first and second gear synchronizers were identical to this. Very simple.

Compared to the models that have the second gear with a THREE PIECE synchronizer assembly:

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Here is the complete first and second gear set with three piece synchronizer assembly. at first glance it looks virtually identical in operation and build style.

The gear on the left if first gear. It has a normal two piece style synchro just like third and fourth gears shown above. the gear on the right is second speed gear.

So I will just show the stack up starting with second gear.

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This is second speed gear and its welded on synchro cone and gear. Note the three notches milled in the steel synchro cone at 120* intervals.

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This bronze synchro ring is what mates to the steel synchro cone surface. Note the three "keys' or tangs that are on this ring.

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This is the steel shell that sits on the brass synchro ring on second gear. Note the three tangs on the ID. These mate with the 120* slots on the ID of the second gear hub....and covers the face of the brass synchro ring.

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So the steel shell/face is indexed to the second gear.

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This is the third synchro ring part. Notice the three rectangular slots in the ring. These are what key this ring to the first brass synchro ring I installed. Those lock the two brass rings into a single unit that move as one...while the steel face in between moves with the gear as one.

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Installed.

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Then the synchro hub...without keys, sliders or needle bearings in this picture

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Then the first gear brass synchro ring is applied. Note...the slots in this part. It is the same part # as the 2nd gear synchro ring even though it does not use the slots. The third and fourth gear also use identical part #'s (generally)....for both gears. I say generally...because I need to check the parts book there may have been some tooth geometry changes from one synchro ring to the other over the years just like they did in other transmissions.


I found one of the repaired tailcones I had done many years ago. I think this is my very first one. Sorry...the welding is terrible. I do a little better work now. But this works very well and is actually far stronger than the tail cone casting on the transmission.

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A reminder of the basic plan

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You can see that I utilized the tail cone bushing plate...and basically a piece of pipe (may have been electrical conduit). I removed the hockey stick/shift rod from the tail cone casting and milled or filed it flat. I then removed the bronze bushing.

I welded a metal plate in both ends...drilled centered holes and welded in the tube. Then re-installed the inner bushing and outer seal and bushing.

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I did not remember until looking at the pictures...that I actually used "freeze plugs" from a water cooled car. they were only a few cents each, were very concentric so they were easy to set up a perfectly centered hole on a drill press.

Then spot weld in the tube so you know its centered. I had to reduce the ID of one or both of the caps slightly with a file and dremel. In this way...I believe it simply pressed in from the back/transmission side...then i tack welded around both ends. I use a gasket and RTV between tail cone and this bushing mount.

You have to make sure that this bushing mount is very securely bolted. If the transmission is installed correctly there should be little load on this part. But if it works loose...with this modification you will know it because it starts affecting your shifting.
I use flanged nuts and Schnoor lock washers with locktite.

The clutch fork pivot:

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A reminder of what part we are speaking of and its damage.

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This is what it should look like top side. The fork pivots against the left edge of the opening. You can see the missing strengthening plate in this picture

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Bottom side.

The problem is that that it is very hard to make a "thicker plate because of how this plate mounts. So....lets modify the plate.

I have been running one like in the drawing above for about 80K miles with no wear.

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A c rude sketch but it gives a good idea of how to repair this. Just take a small section of mild steel rod....i started with 3/8" because its easier to work with. Put a slot 3/4 of the way through it along its length. Then spot weld it onto the plate. I also did some shaping to the fulcrum point.

I will post more later when I make a new one. Ray
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:33 pm    Post subject: Re: 411/412 004 four speed trans rebuild (new 12-7 @ 12:51 pm) Reply with quote

Update 4-9-2016

OK…so it’s time for an update. It’s been a while. Between funding, parts being made by another excellent type 4 owner (I’ll get to those later) and fabricating tools.

By the way lhd_service…thank you for the excellent differential tool set offer…which I plan to buy soon but cannot afford until May or June…so I must proceed with what I have on hand.

For the moment…let’s finish the transmission strip down.

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So we are down to removing the shaft to case bushing ring. Notice the snap ring in the picture.

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This is not a tight snap ring. It’s just insurance against movement

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Remove it by peeling it off.

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Put it someplace safe and do not lose it!

IMPORTANT NOTE: In the Haynes manual they speak of using two methods: #1 a long arm puller or #2 using hardwood hammer handles to lever the ring off.

Having used both…I will tell you that the only ring I have ever broken…and I have broken one…was from using a long armed puller. These rings are one TIGHT!

The twin hardwood hammer handles with a small amount of heat applied to the outer rim of the ring works every time. However…not having any hardwood hammer handles I could risk breaking….I first tried some cheap fiberglass harbor freight hammer handles….I snapped two of them you can see in the background.

I used two metal tools and put nylon scrap underneath them to not damage the case edge. I have light scratches on the case edge but nothing else. These will smooth out no problem.
You will literally have to put the case on flat ground on wood and stand on the handles to pop this part loose.
And….no you cannot proceed without removing this part. Try to avoid getting it at an angle.

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This did the final trick.

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Notice the two raised lugs at 180° apart and the corresponding notches in the pinion carrier housing

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Light scratches on the case…no big deal.

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The differential side bearing tool. Later I will post how I made this. I drew out the 24 point pattern after measuring the bearing hub, then from a scrap piece of ½” thick mild steel plate (use ¼” or even 1/8” plate its plenty…but ½” is what I had on hand)…..I cut the plate into a circle that was larger than the 24 point pattern with a cheap bi-metal hole saw.

Then used my angle grinder and a cut-off wheel to notch along the line to make the teeth. File to fit.

It’s nowhere near perfect but has PLENTY of tooth contact. The clamped it down and used another hole saw slightly larger than the pinion shaft diameter and cut out the center.
Then I bought a cheap socket of the correct OD to fit decent in the center….ground the chrome off the outer edge of the socket….cleaned both parts with acetone ….heat them to about 400F with a propane torch and then welded them together with my little mig-welder. Works perfectly.

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This ugly looking tool is was made the same way. It’s ugly but works like a charm. It fits the pinion carrier adjusting lock ring.
I used a 1/4” piece of steel plate I had that was just wide enough. Same production method as the larger tool…but I used cheap galvanized steel pipe and coupling to make an extender that fits over the 10”-12” of the pinion shaft that will be sticking up in your way (yes I ground off the zinc in the welding areas first).

My previous tools for both of these from eons ago…were made from old oil field open end wrenches with three pieces of key stock welded into the faces that allowed me to turn the pinion and side bearing adjusters. They worked decent…but slipped once in a while and were knuckle busters.
At some point for historical reference I will post pictures of those too.

VERY VERY VERY IMPORTANT NOTES BEFORE PROCEEDING!
OK. Before we go any further we have to understand what MUST be measured and recorded. In most ways this differential is no different than most other ACVW in what dimensions must be known…but its very different in respect to the fact that you cannot measure these dimensions as easily because of interference from the pinion carrier.

So….you will have to get parts as clean as possible….and carefully remove the differential while keeping exact track of the bearing adjusters….and then remove the pinion carrier….without disassembling the carrier body (for the time being).

Once these are out of the way of each other…..you will be making some measuring fixtures….and then re-install each assembly (the pinion carrier and the differential)…..ONE AT A TIME! It does not matter which one you start with.

Then we will finally install them both together again to measure the lash between ring and pinion.
If you have a fixture for lash already….you “could” measure lash while everything is still together….but since 99% of those working on this transmission do not have fixturing….it’s easier to take it apart…make the tooling and then put it back together. This also insures the bearings are as clean as possible….and will then also allow us to use pattern marking paste for another bench mark.

But to measure pinion gear distance from centerline and ring gear distance from centerline….it’s easier to have them out to do them one at a time.
These are what we need to measure:

1. With the differential in the case but pinion carrier and shaft out of the case: you will measure the distance of the ring gear from the pinion shaft centerline.
Since in most cases the transmission you are working on should hopefully be an “operable” transmission and not a basket case cobbled together….you will assume that unless you have horrible differential side bearing wear that this adjustment is at least close.

You can actually pick a spot, make a fixture than can be removed and exactly replaced with the measuring tool (either a dial indicator or micrometer)…..measure from any fixed point on the case…it does not have to be the pinion shaft centerline…..and find the axial location of the ring gear.

In this case I am using the machined case parting line as the reference point for a jig fixture. Unless you damage it…it will not change.
When you put new side bearings on the differential…..you will use the same tool mounted at this same fixed point to find out if the new bearings have moved the ring gear closer to the pinion shaft centerline or farther away. You are simply using this method to find out where in space the ring gear is…BEFORE you change the factory preload setting or replace bearings.

2. You will need to measure the distance of the pinion gear from the centerline of the differential ring gear: In the factory tool set it has a mandrel that fits in place of the differential that allows a dial indicator to sit on the centerline and measure through a hole in the bottom…to the top of the pinion gear face.

Again….you can pick any fixed point to measure this distance from. It does not have to be the differential centerline. It can be…as noted before…from a fixed point like the case parting line.

All you are trying to find out for now…is how far the pinion gear is from A FIXED POINT. You are finding out its CURRENT location before you alter the pre-load or replace the bearings.

When you put new bearings on the pinion shaft….and measure from this same fixed point with the same tool starting from the same position…..you will see if the distance of the pinion gear to your fixed measuring point…has grown…or shrunk…and by how much.
This will tell you exactly how much to add or subtract from the shim…which is the only adjuster for this measurement.

3. Ring and pinion gear lash and contact pattern: From the other two measurements you know where the ring and pinion gears are in a three dimensional space…..with reference to a repeatable benchmark. Because of that you can remove and install them repeatedly and get them back to the same starting relationship.

The gear backlash and tooth contact pattern measurement will tell you whether the current relationship between the gears is correct or not.

NOTE: The option is yours……if you find that at this stage…before you have replaced or altered anything……if you find that the ring gear is too far away from the pinion shaft and is creating excessive lash and a tooth contact pattern that is off….you can correct this with the bearing adjusters.

Usually if the lash in a used transmission is due to bearing wear. A small amount is due to normal gear face wear. Because the lash may become normal or better when you install new bearings…..I would recommend NOT altering anything until AFTER you replace the bearings and set the preload.
THIS IS JUST PRE-DISASSEMBLY MEASUREMENTS.

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The right side adjuster. It has no markings. So…either it’s never been apart or it was marked by something removable when they did it.

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I added a case reference line, a punch mark for starting point and labeled the parts right and left…which you MUST do.

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The left side had no markings either

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Removing the side adjusters which hold the outer bearing races

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Record the EXACT number of turns and partial turns it required for that bearing adjuster to be removed and write it down in a place where you cannot lose it. In this case its written on the garage wall and in my notebook.

NOTE: What you want to do is remove the adjusters so that you can slip the differential to one side away from the pinion carrier. Removing the adjuster from the ring gear side of the differential will allow you to move the differential out of the way enough to remove the pinion carrier…but you need to remove the other adjuster to get the differential out of the case…so it’s easier to just remove both now.

NOTE: for those with the hideout (in my opinion) philosophy of saving good condition differential bearings because they seem decent and have to be better than what’s available ….which is dangerous in transmission this rare……look carefully. These bearings are beyond the pale.

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These are left and right bearing races…..notice the roughness?

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These are the bearings. Look carefully at the lines of wear in the center section versus the end that had no race contact.

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Next….remove the five 15mm nuts that hold the pinion carrier.

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There are three points where you will feel an overlap of the cast iron outer hub that you can get a small nail bar, pry bar or large screwdriver behind to lever the pinion carrier out.

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Proceed slowly alternating. When the cover is flush with the studs. The pinion carrier should pull out. Careful not to chatter it against the ring gear teeth.

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Here is the pinion carrier on the bench. DO NOT DISASSEMBLE IT YET. Put it aside carefully for the moment.

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Here is the view into the case.

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Here is the pinion gear spacing shim and o-ring…TAKE GOOD CARE OF THESE!

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Also…this lip is where the outer pinion gear cover separates……is pressed on…to the pinion carrier. The bearing, race and pinion inner spacer shim is under here. DO NOT YET DISASSEMBLE THIS!

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Push the differential to the side…..

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Tilt and lift it out being careful not to dent the threads or bearings.

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Looking into the case you can see debris. This is bearing or race material. Either from the current bearings or from a previous set. I will not know until I inspect the pinion bearings.
A little bit of this is brass probably from synchros….but much f this is bearing material…not brass.

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Be sure you find and capture the spacers between the CV hub and differential housing. Keep them separated per side and do not lose them.

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Measuring Jig plates: I am using a product called Mic 6 aluminum. Its unhardened, stress relieved pre-machined jig making plate. It is machined flat and parallel on both sides to within .015” per foot......which is plenty flat and parallel for making a jig plate since the measuring tool locations will be FIXED......meaning once you decide where you want the micrometer or dial indicator to be.......you will drill holes and add clamp bolts so that the measurkmg tool always goes back on in the exact spot.....and drill holes with guide pins so that the jig plate always goes back onto the case in the exact same position and locks down.
It comes in numerous thickness and width and has a plastic protective film on both sides.

A piece big enough to make nice jigs is about $20 from McMaster Carr. I am also using an 8mm x 1.25 center punch marking set to mark locations for precise drilling and will be using dowel pins for locations. I will be making two jig plates. These will allow repeatable and removable mountings for micrometer and dial indicator to take the measurements we need for differential ring and pinion bearing replacement.

This is aside from the torque/rolling resistance readings we need for bearing pre-load and for the adjustments internal to the differential…those are another chapter.

Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:21 pm    Post subject: Re: 411/412 004 four speed trans rebuild (new 12-7 @ 12:51 pm) Reply with quote

Update 4-11-2016

This update is just information...no pictures...but its important information.

As an update:

First we should get straight what I am doing with this refurbishment and the measuring tool jigs I am using and outline what you can and cannot do with this type of measuring jig…..and when you will need the factory tool set…..as compared to the one I am making.

If I don’t, as I progress, what I am doing will seem very unorthodox.

What I am doing (and what most of you will be doing):

A. Taking an already operating transmission and replacing the bearings and checking all of the synchro gaps and properly adjusting the main gear stack, replacing the differential and pinion shaft bearings to insure longevity BEFORE it starts to get damaging wear.

NOTE: I will be adjusting differential and pinion shaft bearing preload and checking and adjusting the internal shims, spacer tube and thrust washers in the differential to account for wear….but those will follow along factory lines and are not using this jig I am discussing.

B. I will be using a homemade measuring jig to measure and document the already factory set relationship between the ring and pinion gear. I already know this relationship is correct because I have driven with these transmissions and the ring and pinion gears are original.

NOTE: This relationship is set on the pinion shaft ….call this the X axis…..PRIMARILY with a shim between the shaft head and the pinion gear which is splined onto the shaft and SECONDARILY with a shim between the differential housing and the pinion shaft carrier (more on this coming up)

IMPORTANT: This shim under the gear just moves the pinion gear with reference to the ring gear. The shim between the case and the flange on the pinion shaft carrier…..moves the entire pinion shaft assembly fore and aft with reference to both the differential case AND the main gear set case.

This is very important..…because if you somehow feel the need to change, replace or lose this shim….THE MAINSHAFT SHIM BETWEEN 1&2 AND 3&4 GEARSETS AND THE COUNTERSHAFT THRUST SHIMS AND THE SHIMMING OF THE BALL BEARING HUB WILL ALL NEED TO BE ALTERED….because it moves the entire main shaft…which DOUBLES AS the pinion shaft in this transmission……fore and aft changing the relationship of the gears splined onto it…..to the outer case which holds the reverse idler gear and the counter shaft gear cluster and the main shaft ball bearing hub and snap ring.

The ring gear to pinion shaft spacing…call this Y axis….is set by moving the bearing preload adjusters in and out together Just like on the 002 and 091 transmissions….once you adjust the two outer adjusting rings to get proper bearing preload….you turn them in and out simultaneously the exact same amount to move the ring gear further or closer to the pinion shaft…while not disturbing the preload you have set.

A better way…not simpler but better…is to set the left side bearing adjuster to give you your proper spacing of ring gear in the Y axis…..lock it….and then simply sue the other side adjuster and your torque wrench to adjust preload.

C. all we need to know for what we are doing……a bearing replacement/overhaul….is to measure where the pinion gear is in the Y axis to ANY fixed point…..and where the ring gear is in the X axis to any fixed point.

WHAT THIS MEANS FOR ANYONE ELSE WATCHING THIS: is that we cannot use the factory markings on the ring gear and formulas in the book to set up the ring and pinion from scratch. Also…since we are not replacing any critical parts like: the differential housing, the pinion shaft, the ring gear or the pinion gear…..we have no need to use the factory method or jigs.

WHAT YOU CANNOT DO WITH THIS METHOD I AM USING: You cannot replace any large critical parts.

For instance:
A. if you have a damaged differential housing. Let’s say the diff case is cracked. If you get another differential housing from a donor transmission..…you need to bring with it….the pinion shaft, with its gear and shim and at a minimum the ring gear (the whole differential would be better)…AND….the differential housing with the pinion carrier shim.

Why?....because each case casting and the pinion carrier casting is slightly different in its casting and machine work. The pinion carrier is set by shim to match the differential housing. You still may have to do some small adjusting work to the countershaft gear cluster thrust shims in your gear section….but taking the whole differential housing, ring, pinion and diff and pinion shaft along with the case…will allow you to make the rest of the transmission work with the differential section.

If you don’t have the whole differential and pinion shaft and carrier….only the outer case…..you will likely need the factory tool set to set the relationship between the ring gear and pinion gear.

B. If your differential case is fine….but you somehow need to replace the ring and pinion gear because of damage or wear…and you have a donor R&P set with no pinion shaft, shim set or outer case….you will need the factory tool set to adjust the relationship using the factory set-up markings on the ring gear.
Ray[/b]
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:52 pm    Post subject: Re: 411/412 004 four speed trans rebuild (new 12-7 @ 12:51 pm) Reply with quote

Ray, Im once again impressed over your knowledge and the way you have put it in writing for all of us.

Thanks!

/Lars S
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: 411/412 004 four speed trans rebuild (new 12-7 @ 12:51 pm) Reply with quote

Ray,

I came back to see how far you got. Was busy with other things and this time of the year there is not so much to do or start. So I'm going to push this thread in hope you will tell about the proceedings in the meantime.

Since I have not been inside a 004 transmission yet, I like to see your work first before starting. Especially the modifications you wrote about before.

Joerg
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:29 pm    Post subject: Re: 411/412 004 four speed trans rebuild (new 12-7 @ 12:51 pm) Reply with quote

lhd_service wrote:
Ray,

I came back to see how far you got. Was busy with other things and this time of the year there is not so much to do or start. So I'm going to push this thread in hope you will tell about the proceedings in the meantime.

Since I have not been inside a 004 transmission yet, I like to see your work first before starting. Especially the modifications you wrote about before.

Joerg


Funny you should mention this! Very Happy ......I just ordered pinion bearings and needle bearings today. I have been locked out of my garage for three weeks.

Here is an entertaining story for you..... Laughing

My illustrious landlord....in his effort to modernize.....probably in support of future raises in rent....installed a garage door opener (which I have no need of).....and me not being home....the maintenance man had some problems with the stop/start point programming and being that it was 15°F outside and in the garage.....elected to finish it after Christmas.

A key point to this hilarity.....is that this is a detached garage.....not connected to the house....and has no side or back door. Remember this important fact. Wink

He pulled the track disconnect cord (and that point is also central to this story....remember this)......and closed the garage door and promptly went to San Diego for Christmas.....this was Friday before last.

I come home.....no clicker control on the porch or in the mailbox. I go to lift the garage door....and I am locked out. Rolling Eyes

Call landlord.....he says hes on it. A week goes by and I am busy out and in town. No clicker...no call...still locked out. I call landlord last Wednesday......make the explicit point that he has locked me away from my large tools....and car needs maintenance to start an 1100 mile round trip for Christmas.

He called the maintenance man on a three way....maint man swears he left the track unhooked or he would not have been able to close the door. ......and left the clicker laying on the front hood of my 412..... Rolling Eyes Mad

So....landlord says.....just pull that red handle and the door will release......like....WTF?.....dude.....there is no door.....to get in.....to pull the release handle!!!.....what kind of idiot installs a garage door opener on a detached garage with no 2nd entrance??
I point this issue out.....and I can hear his hand slap his forehead. I could almost hear the silent, mental ......DOH!!!!!

So....landlord says spare clicker is in the shop. He will be by in the morning. And......no call....no show.
So.....unbeknownst to landlord.....I go out qnd lightly pry up a piece of vinyl siding....drill a 2" hole in the wall....make a 7' long steel hook......and......pull the track release cord.......and guess what......NO DOOR RELEASE.

So....I put the plugs back in the hole and replace the siding.....put my padlocks back on so just in case some yahoo fixes it while I am out of town...the door wont be standing open.

Got back 40 minutes ago. In the morning.....I will go to the side of the garage.....and take a brick to the only other way in.....the crank out window over my parts washer. Then I will work to get around the 3/4" slip in panel with a 2" x 4" drop in strony back I have blocking the window.....to stop precisely this from happening. Probably take my sawzall to it.

So.....in short....I will drop in another chapter to the transmission in a couple weeks. It will be measuring play in the existing differential bearings.....and locating the ring and pinion position relative to the case.
Then installing the new bearings......after I break them in with a fixture that clamps them...in a bucket of clean gear oil...on the drill press. Then I can use the preload specs for new bearings with 30 miles or more.
Then once the ring and pinion are installed and located properly.....I will remove ring gear....adjust bearing preload on the pinion shaft assembly.
Then remove pinion shaft assembly and set preload and mark the adjuster rings for ring gear preload.....re-install both.....and check total rotating torque.

When that is done and correct I will move on to checking of synchronizers and then reassembly of gear stack....and then adjustment of shift forks and final case assembly.

So....to finish the garage door story....I am at my parents house.....and look at their garage door opener.

GUESS WHAT?.....the release lock assembly that rides on the track on my garage door....with that nifty red pull release handle......is installed backwards!!!!.......this is why it cannot see the stop point in tue program.....and if the garage door closes tight......there will be a sprijhback that locks/jams the track..... Rolling Eyes Laughing

More to come. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:10 am    Post subject: Re: 411/412 004 four speed trans rebuild (new 12-7 @ 12:51 pm) Reply with quote

12-30-2016

An interesting note and a small recap:

The correct bearing part # for the PINION SHAFT bearings are:

SKF: 331457

Timken: M86648 sometimes listed as M86648-A

I am re-posting this because at one point in time I listed it as M86649...WHICH IS INCORRECT!. The 86649 is identical to the M86648...but the ID is too small by .035"


As far as finding these....I rarely find the SKF bearing available at all when doing a google search. Occasionally I find one on Ebay...but in the recent past the few I have found looked like they were stored poorly...boxes dusty or ripped up...and bearing either wrapped in paper or out of the bag....and no outer race.

I can buy Timken outer races easily as they fit several bearings....but I am wary of mixing races with bearing brands....not to be construed as a form of "racism" Laughing

The only bearings I can readily find are the Timken M8664A...and they are EXPENSIVE...typically best deals are $58 to $70 each without outer races....with peak prices around $112 each.

This leads me to believe they are either out of production or in limited production.

Get what you need to rebuild now or in the future...and keep your eyes open and collect them.


An interesting note while looking up these bearings. In the Timken specification literature...they list that the design lifespan is tested and set at 90,000,000 revolutions. Scroll down and read a bit.

http://cad.timken.com/item/all-product-types/taper...item-28335

So....I took my tire size (205-60-15) and found the circumference minus about 1/6th sidewall crush flex....which is 74.93".....and divided the inches per miles (63,360) by the inches per rotation (74.93)...and I get 845.58 rotations per mile. So...one mile= 845.58.

So..divide 90,000,000 revolutions by 845.58...and you get 106,435.81 miles as a design lifespan for the pinion bearings... Shocked ...and...you know?,,,thats about right!

For the stock 165/80-15 tires you get approximately 77" per rotation. so 63,360" / 77" = 822.85 revs per miles...so a lifespan of about 109,375 miles.

EDIT:

I just bought two Timken M86648 pinion bearings from carid.com for $58.85 each and $9 shipping. I will let you know how they look and what service is like. The ratings on CarId.com are excellent.
Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:51 pm    Post subject: Re: 411/412 004 four speed trans rebuild (new 12-7 @ 12:51 pm) Reply with quote

An update so you do not think I have forgotten this. Its all under plastic still.

Today...for the fifth time in 6 months....I tried to order pinion shaft bearings. I got an e-mail/note three days ago that Rockauto had my Timken M86648 bearings in stock. I could not order until today....and....once again...out of stock... Rolling Eyes

It makes me wonder if they had them in stock at all. Three of the other four companies were not as quick as RockAuto to correct.
You order...you pay....a week or so later when nothing has arrived you get an e-mail that they are out of stock or waiting on stock way down the line...then you have to contact to get your refund.

I will be back on this soon. I may have to physically show up at a bearing dealer and order for exorbitant prices.

Places like CarId.com.....stay away from. They dont have anything. They are just trolling. Many of them will take your money and just assume they can order what you want and mark it up.

I have just place a stock query with Summit Racing whose site says they have these bearings. We will see.

Sorry for the year plus delay. Ray
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