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Wagon progress update Part 2... the problems
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Pepperbilly
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:08 am    Post subject: Wagon progress update Part 2... the problems Reply with quote

Just when you think it's all going well, suddenly it's not.

For those of you that have been following my wagon progress, you are familiar with Goldie my '73 412.

I had her running so sweetly. Every aspect of engine performance was just right. Cold starting was virtually immediate and warmup pretty much per book. Beautiful smooth idle dialed in. In gear there was no "see sawing" of the idle compensator like is so common with the automatics. Had her out on monday on a beautiful 80 degree day for a 30 mile test drive. Very nice power on the freeway cruising 60-65 mph...steady power. Back road performance equally nice on hills. Perfect idle at stops. BUT, just a mile from home my power just gradually went away. I had real trouble making the slightest of inclines. I could gain additional power by pumping/feathering the throttle but just barely enough to keep crawling. I also seemed to notice some muffled backfiring like in the intake but never saw any smoke out the back. I pulled over and stopped with the engine wanting to stall. Idle was erratic and slow. It did stall but would restart. Finally nursed her home the last 1/4 mile.

Shut her down. NOW WHAT? Yes, the tank is full of gas...just gassed up. Checked for any loose or popped vac hoses. All tight. Restarted the engine and checked all basics. Dwell and timing just fine where I had set them.

Shut her down again. Hooked up my fuel pressure gauge. Perfect at 28 psi with the engine running...no fluctuations.

Pulled my spark plugs. Three of them were colored white with no signs of fuel being burned. This says really,really lean. The fourth plug was lightly tan colored and showed proper burning. This is a big clue now.

Maybe I have MPS problems. I did have it apart to install a new copper diaphram purchased from Tangerine Racing. The end cap is out for adjusting. I thought I had it adjusted well enough because it ran so well but I could be way off base here. I do know the MPS held good vacuum when assembled because I checked that with my MityVac.

Yes, I am still using my original F.I. wiring harness. I have checked almost every wire and it seemed ok. Tightened and repaired connections where needed.

Thats's where I'm at folks. Fun and games the Type 4 way Very Happy .

Bill
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:23 am    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update Part 2... the problems Reply with quote

As I noted in my PM....this is classic behavior of horrible gas contamination...or...a clogged sock filter.....or....since you note that one injector seems to be getting "some" fuel......it could be a failed main gas filter that let silt into the lines and plugged three injectors.

Other items that are "happens when running" specific.....are a loose ground star under the intake plenum. Keep in mind that all four injectors pick up their ground at that point. If that has corrosion between the brass christmas tree connector star and the case or if the bolt its on is loose or if the individual female connectors are loose......a combination of heat expansion and engine vibration can cause intermittent connection once warmed up...several times per second or minute.

That very last one.....was one of the hardest to track down on my 411 wagon. The ground star felt tight....but had corrosion behind it and was getting very poor ground.

Likewise....the same kind of ground corrosion issue can affect the fuel pump...but that would not explain three clean plugs and one normal.

Check the grounds. Ray
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Pepperbilly
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update Part 2... the problems Reply with quote

Ray, you are so right!!!

I removed the fuel sending unit. The sock filter looked ok in the gas tank but I could see this fine looking brown “silt” on the bottom around the sock filter. Looked like sand at the beach after the tide goes out. Tapped the filter with a long wooden dowel but nothing really released from it. Definetly some fine debris in the tank.

Time to look at the main filter by the pump. Mind you this is a brand new filter. Disconnected the lines on the filter and here you go…that brown silty debris came out. Sooo… looks like this is leftover debris from when I cleaned the tank. It’s not much but it’s sure fine stuff. Got to get this stuff completely cleaned out now. Wonder what it has done to my refurbished and cleaned injectors?

Collected some in a container…
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Look at the inside of the filter…
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I put on a new filter and added some Stabil to the tank. Started the engine and the more it ran the smoother it got. So this is all very hopeful…and to think I was about to fly Ray up to Seattle Very Happy. Maybe I still have to. Stay tuned.

Bill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update Part 2... the problems Reply with quote

Some posted the fineness of the filters here. I don't remember the values but the filter should be finer than the injector screen!

EDIT: One source says the filter is 12 micron.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 5:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update Part 2... the problems Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
Some posted the fineness of the filters here. I don't remember the values but the filter should be finer than the injector screen!

EDIT: One source says the filter is 12 micron.

So 12 micron. Is there anythig like silty crap that is smaller than 12 micron?

Bill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:04 am    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update Part 2... the problems Reply with quote

As noted....and it depends on where and who is doing the listing....you see fuel filters being listed at 10-12 micron.

Here is a pretty good thread on stock EFI filters for bus/L-jet and type 3/4 D-jet.

All 4 page of this thread are very good. Lots of input. My filter dissections start on page 3 and 4.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=40

The red silt found in filters like that can range from common red dirt to rust to additive silt. It can come from in ground fuel tanks, from re-dissolved tetraethyl lead in old fuel system parts etc. It really depends on what it is.

So....typically the in-tank sock filter is anywhere from ~95microns to about 125 microns.

Some analysis if you get bored

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9594363&highlight=#9594363

So the "rocks" get taken out in the gas tank to maybe down to ~95 microns.
Then the main fuel filter "should" get anything down to 10-12 microns.

I will have to measure an injector inlet screen.

But yes, there are particles in fuel finer than 10-12 microns.

You have to remember that 25.4 microns = 0.001" so....12.52 microns = 0.0005".
You can see particles of both of these sizes in the ight light.

That being said, the internal tolerances of our injectors ....between the pintle and the opening as the pintle pulls back to spray.....are right around ~0.010" or larger.

All the screens in the injectors are for are to catch debris and dust that was in the lines and pumps during assembly or that gets in during regular component replacement.

Here is a D-jet dissection in this thread if you are interested.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=20

Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update Part 2... the problems Reply with quote

Finished draining and cleaning out the fuel tank. There really wasn’t much stuff other than a few flakes that I broke up and vacuumed out with a long small plastic tube taped onto the vacuum cleaner hose using an old master cylinder boot to step it down in size. Worked great and did all this through the fuel sender opening. I think the biggest problem came from the smaller “silty” stuff leftover from initially cleaning the tank. Thought I had it pristine clean but now find out that was not the case. Flushed out the bottom with some water and then acetone. Installed another new filter.

Still could not get the engine running like before this happened. I pulled the fuel injectors and did a spray test in glass jars. The results were really not good. None of them had a decent spray pattern…alot of spitting. Looks like I’ve got dirty injectors. Damn. These are the injectors I gave a second life to by having them cleaned and tested. Now, what to do? Have them cleaned and tested again or go the rebuilt route? These are old injectors.

Today I spent the afternoon trying to get my fuel gauge to function. Took my sender apart since my gauge passed the “grounding test”. It showed full when I did this. The fuel sender needed a good cleaning inside. The float works great and with an ohm meter connected to the base of the float wires the ohm values were good. About 72.3 ohms empty (float at bottom of travel), and about 2 ohms full (float all the way at top). Put the sender together. I could not get any ohm readings. Took it apart and back together several times but still nothing. Not clear why this thing doesn’t send a signal.
I double checked my gas gauge with a spare head temp sensor of all things. Just thought of that while I was trying to come up with a test. It works great! Just connect the head sensor to the brown wire at the tank that is for the sending unit. Connect the threaded end of the head sensor to a jumper wire to a good known ground. I used a heat gun to heat up the sensor really hot then turned the ignition switch to on and watched my gauge. As the sensor cools off it passes through the ohms range the gas gauge uses and the gauge went through it’s full to empty cycle. Felt good to watch something work! Now, just gotta figure out what the cure for my sending unit is. Needed some good news.

Bill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:52 am    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update Part 2... the problems Reply with quote

So.....it's possible that you have....or had what I call some "goo" in the fuel line system somewhere.

First thing. Remove your injectors from the engine. Carefully pop off the yellow Pintle covers on your injectors so you can see the pointless. Look for crud or crusty rust around the tips. Spray them off with carb cleaner.

Then, with the inlet barb facing down and over a paper towel, spray carb cleaner up into the inlet and see what comes out.

It's possible there was some dust or fine particles that clogged the inlet filter. But, that would impede fuel feed and not really affect the spray pattern so much.

Then, stand the injectors up in something to keep them vertical and fill the barb up with carb cleaner and let it soak for an hour or two. Then dump them on a paper towel to see what comes out.

The "goo" problem I was mentioning could be varnish. Fill them back up from the barbed end and then carefully....push the pointless straight down onto a hard surface...gently....until the pintle clicks open....and the carb cleaner drips out. See what comes out.

Lastly, tape the injector to something with the barb side down....over a paper towel. with the red plastic straw on the carb cleaner can.....and a nine volt battery connected to the plug on the injector.....do not yet connect both wires to the battery.....put the carb cleaner straw over the Pinole to cover it.....and then connect the last 9 volt battery wire to click the injector open....while you spray carb cleaner through it in reverse. Only do this for about five seconds at a time.

There is a high chance this will fix the spray pattern problem.

I am betting you either had some varnish or rust starting around the Pinole from ethanol and moisture.

That problem is made worse by the pintle covers if there is any kind of very slow leakage from the injectors. After the car cools down when there is not heat to evaporate away the fuel.....even a small droplet that oozes out....will stay in that little well around the Pinole in that damn pintle cap. If it has ethanol in it, it will pull moisture out of the air and start the corrosion process. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update Part 2... the problems Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
So.....it's possible that you have....or had what I call some "goo" in the fuel line system somewhere.

First thing. Remove your injectors from the engine. Carefully pop off the yellow Pintle covers on your injectors so you can see the pointless. Look for crud or crusty rust around the tips. Spray them off with carb cleaner.

Then, with the inlet barb facing down and over a paper towel, spray carb cleaner up into the inlet and see what comes out.

It's possible there was some dust or fine particles that clogged the inlet filter. But, that would impede fuel feed and not really affect the spray pattern so much.

Then, stand the injectors up in something to keep them vertical and fill the barb up with carb cleaner and let it soak for an hour or two. Then dump them on a paper towel to see what comes out.

The "goo" problem I was mentioning could be varnish. Fill them back up from the barbed end and then carefully....push the pointless straight down onto a hard surface...gently....until the pintle clicks open....and the carb cleaner drips out. See what comes out.

Lastly, tape the injector to something with the barb side down....over a paper towel. with the red plastic straw on the carb cleaner can.....and a nine volt battery connected to the plug on the injector.....do not yet connect both wires to the battery.....put the carb cleaner straw over the Pinole to cover it.....and then connect the last 9 volt battery wire to click the injector open....while you spray carb cleaner through it in reverse. Only do this for about five seconds at a time.

There is a high chance this will fix the spray pattern problem.

I am betting you either had some varnish or rust starting around the Pinole from ethanol and moisture.

That problem is made worse by the pintle covers if there is any kind of very slow leakage from the injectors. After the car cools down when there is not heat to evaporate away the fuel.....even a small droplet that oozes out....will stay in that little well around the Pinole in that damn pintle cap. If it has ethanol in it, it will pull moisture out of the air and start the corrosion process. Ray


Not sure what you mean by the “pointless”.

I am really considering new injectors. The ones I am using are a mix of originals and a second set purchased in the early ‘90s. My injectors surely must have corrosion of some magnitude. I feel I don’t want to fight this.

I see Rockauto has two options listed. Send them in and rebuild and return. OR brand new ones by Standard Motor Products. Getting new ones interests me alot. Do you know of any other new options out there?

Bill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:20 am    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update Part 2... the problems Reply with quote

Pepperbilly wrote:
Not sure what you mean by the “pointless”.
Bill


Autocorrect for pintle, I presume.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update Part 2... the problems Reply with quote

Yes auto correct.....I was using my phone. Laughing Its about 2.5 months old and its one of things I hate about it. I have never had these kinds of auto correct issue for typing with any phone or computer I have ever had.

From what I an see, it is not auto correcting based on my usage history but instead with what might be a popular response using those particular letters out in the "on-line-osphere".

That point alone pisses me off which means its constantly linked and reporting.

I will see if I can tweak it. My old phone would show choices above the keypad when it "thinks" you are mis-spelling something. This one just keeps correcting it. Will probably disable it.

Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update Part 2... the problems Reply with quote

You can usually shut off auto-correct entirely.

An office mate assumed it was making suggestions from history because there were a suspiciously large number of times it had the suggestion "fuck" replacing her typos.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 2:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update Part 2... the problems Reply with quote

I had repeat issues of this until I removed the filter sock inside the tank. Then, it was no longer the issue. Good luck!
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update Part 2... the problems Reply with quote

Still researching my fuel injector choices. No decision made yet.

I did move forward on something else though. I finally repaired my fuel sending unit. The answer lies in getting rid of the corrosion (or bypassing it), within the sender. A big shout out to telford dorr on the Bay Window Bus forum. He has a wonderful fix for this problem...and it works! Now my sender and gas gauge all function like designed. Mystery solved Smile !

Bill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update Part 2... the problems Reply with quote

Pepperbilly wrote:
Still researching my fuel injector choices. No decision made yet.

I did move forward on something else though. I finally repaired my fuel sending unit. The answer lies in getting rid of the corrosion (or bypassing it), within the sender. A big shout out to telford dorr on the Bay Window Bus forum. He has a wonderful fix for this problem...and it works! Now my sender and gas gauge all function like designed. Mystery solved Smile !

Bill


So....you can see from my sectioned injector at that link I posted....that internal corrosion is one of the issues that affect the sealing of the pintle.

From the sound of the corrosion issues you have been having....across the board, fuel system and brake system, what you are seeing is a product of the area you live in. I had the same issues in Atlanta.

You have a lot of moisture in the air and you have four seasons temperature. You have up and down dew point issues. This is aggravated by the tact that both brake fluid and gasoline with ethanol are hygroscopic.
They absorb moisture readily in these types of environments even when garaged.

So....from my sectioned injector you can see that the key parts like the injector pintle and the surrounding orifice plate are nickel plated.
While nickel itself does not rust....it is also NOT a sacrificial anode to prevent rust. What this causes is if rust does get a foothold from say....the side opposite the plating.....the steel itself will rust and the nickel plating does not. So it eats the metal out from underneath the plating causing "abscesses".

This alone may not cause an injector to leak or have a poor spray pattern. BUT..... as rust grows.....it blooms outward increasing its volume/size. This "growth" around the pintlw opening or on the pintle itself can cause poor sealing and spray pattern.

So.....since these injectors may have corrosion issues that may never be fixed ....one thing I have not tried.....but I will....is to put a few drops of phosphoric acid diluted on the pintle from the outside and cycle the injector a few times. Let it fizz and dissolve all the rust. Then test and repeat...then immediately pu it into use to let fuel wash away the phosphoric acid.

I will test one tonight. At the very least it might fix it. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update Part 2... the problems Reply with quote

I was supposed to receive my new fuel injectors today but not happening. Hate waiting for parts that make the car go. Maybe monday.

Bill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update Part 2... the problems Reply with quote

Progress to report and it is really good…so far Very Happy .

Installed 4 brand new SMP fuel injectors from RockAuto. Also, another brand new fuel filter. These injectors do not use a pintle cover. They fit perfectly and the plugs on the wiring harness fit nice and snug. Before this I also rechecked my fuel pump output and it measured out to .591 liter in a 30 second flow test. That is good. The engine started on the 3rd try after priming fuel. Cold idle was high but good response and no hesitations or shudders. I readjusted the idle and computer knob after the AAR closed off. Let it run for half an hour. Shut her down and restart was immediate after 10 minutes. Mustered up some courage to take her down to the gas station and after that a 10 mile test. Ran beautifully! Will probably have to work with adjusting the MPS at a later time. So far so good!

I also got the feel of the KYB KG 5410 gas shocks I installed in the rear. It certainly felt more firm in the rear. I liked it. Keep in mind I have not altered anything in the stock front suspension. I will probably have to though. No alignment yet either but my eyeball tape measured align is tracking really well in the front Laughing !
My photos are showing the stance as of today. I have in the front trunk an additional 150 lbs. Very happy with how the “nose up” attitude has leveled out. The gas shocks in the rear for sure improve the level.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Bill
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:38 am    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update Part 2... the problems Reply with quote

Some thoughts about weight in the trunk.

About 150 lbs in the trunk is a good start toward levelling the front end.

Do not think that the front end being level with the rear is "abnormal". It was a bit of a miscalculation on the designers part.

That huge front trunk was really designed to be used. This is a road trip car!

In order to be able to handle the weight of say...the luggage for four people....the front springs are pretty damn large and progressive for such a light vehicle.

In retrospect, they probably could have tweaked the front strut springs...down a little in power...them compressed them slightly more at unloaded weight (about an inch) by using a shorter strut rod length.....which would have given them about the same "power" because of the extra preload....which would have allowed the car to be ~90% level (about like you have now).

Then with a full trunk load....it might be say...10% lower than level....which would also artificially alter the static castor...to help control that extra weight.

About the weight...bear with me on this one.... Wink

So, if you think about luggage and weight....think about how the airlines do it. They allow a maximum of ~50 lbs per bag. Most people are about 40 + lbs going on a four day pleasure trip.

Depending on what you pack and what size bag, you can get about five medium suitcases into the front trunk. Thats about 200 lbs.

To get the stock front suspension to sit dead level....I found that about 200 lbs does it. 150 is a decent level but 200 pretty much does it.

I used to travel in my car as my daily for a living across numerous states. It had a lot of miles already and breaking down was a worry. I was poor (still am) Laughing
In the front trunk I typically rolled with three tool bags totaling about 75 pounds. I also had a ~35 lb floor jack, four one gallon plastic pails with lids that had miscellaneous Parts (one was relays and electrical, one was filled with every type of bolts and small part and fittings, one had a coil of fuel lines, vacuum lines, a fuel pump, spare filters etc.)...these totaled about 30 lbs.
I had one slightly fatter bucket with an alternator stuffed in it. A jack stand and a couple blocks of wood, a quart container of brake fluid, a gallon of windshield washer fluid.

All told so far this is right at 130- to 150 lbs...I weighed it out.

Its not that the car was so unreliable that I needed all of that...its just that I could easily be anywhere in the middle of nowhere a few hundred miles from home and you could not count on buying parts if you need them. Also, this was the storage space for a lot of these parts.

In fact, the larger parts I carried never got used....but the bucket of bolts and fasteners saved my ass on numerous occasions. The relay and fuel injection parts bucket save my ass a couple of times.

So on top of this depending on who I was visiting, my small 20-25 lbs suitcase and my 40-50 lb rolling tool bag for work.

It was after I started putting the work tool bag in the front trunk that I realized that about 200 lbs was the sweet spot.

Yes, for handling, the extra weight can induce a slight amount more front end roll on curves at high speed...but nothing huge.

The only issue in the long run ....and I have always said this, the stock front strut valving is a little bit too soft.

With a full front trunk, if you are going say...45-55mph or faster and go over a moderate dip in the road, the springs can handle it but the compression valving can be just a little soft so you have a bit too much downward travel speed on the shock. It does not bottom out....but it compresses a little more RAPIDLY than it should.

What that causes is a highly compressed...highly energized.... front coil spring. What that causes....is a BIG rebound reaction. Its the rebound valving that is really lacking.....but its only really noticeable when the trunk is full because all of that weight rebounding upwards....has a lot of inertia. This is when you can actually get a "bottoming out"...or really a "topping out" where the struts extend all the way until the internal piston stops upward movement.

This causes a big quick change to camber. It can be a bit of control issue at high speed for a second or two.

The stock "wet struts" did a really good job overall. However, with age and a lot of miles, the top strut tube seals start to leak, you start to see fluid at the top of the struts. You are down a little on the oil charge.

This causes not really a compression problem...but an oil starvation issue on the rebound stroke so the rebound with a fully loaded trunk at high miles can get a little violent.

Next in line, the KYB oil strut cartridges were overall very good. They had very slightly better compression valving, about the same rebound valving as stock.

The Monroe strut cartridge's were the best overall for mileage/lifespan...but were dead on equal to stock in valving.

The worst were Boge. They were very soft and smooth...because they were even softer than stock valving. In the 20-25k miles range ...they usually beat themselves to death.

Lastly, when I quit travelling so far from home, I unloaded a lot of the trunk. I put in a tire inner tube full of sand (think like a big heavy sausage)....situated up front near the nose sheet metal. This was about a 150 lbs...but being so far up and all in one place...it cause peculiar handling. The extra weight was situated a long way from the wheel axis.

I then moved the sausage back against the front of the firewall forward of the gas tank. Much better center of gravity....but not the same compression as 150-200 lbs spread out in the whole trunk.

Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update Part 2... the problems Reply with quote

My new SMP fuel injectors are performing very nicely after a couple of 30 mile test drives. The idle and throttle response is immediate and so smooth Very Happy ! The fuel contamination problem is solved. Will be changing the fuel filter more frequently though just to play it safe. Will also be monitoring the mpg and maybe making MPS adjustments. It seems to be running a hair bit on the rich side, BUT that is better than too lean. Hate to touch the MPS because it is running so well…we will see.

When I think back about a year ago, I may have damaged the original injectors. I tested them myself with a 12 volt car battery and they all clicked. I did not know at the time I should have been testing with nothing more than 9 volts. When I had them installed initially and tested the wires for resistance from the computer plug they all were borderline high. I did have Dr. Injector at that time clean, flow, and pressure test them. He gave them a clean bill of health. I am just not sure. Did I have a resistance issue, or a problem with contamination, OR both? Well, I went with new injectors because I could. I think I made the right decision.

Bill

You can see the new injectors nestled in there. They have silver bodies not yellow like the originals

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The motor complete now with a nice new Blue coil and new injectors.


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Pepperbilly
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 7:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Wagon progress update Part 2... the problems Reply with quote

She's running great but now the gas heater does not fire. I promised you problems!

I am pretty up on how to do things to make this heater run properly. I cleaned and tested everything while it was out of the car. I have the proper gas heater trouble shooting guide BA 4 for 1973 models. I am concerned about what it is doing...

When I turn on the heater using the switch on the dash and the heater lever fully pulled back things do happen. The aux blower in the engine compartment runs and the fuel pump "ticks" like it should. The heater will not fire into the combustion mode though. The pump is delivering fuel because I physically removed the outlet hose and looked. I also pulled the glow plug but testing it showed no spark although the plug body got pretty warm. This is as far as I got today. What worries me here is the fact that while I was driving the car I believed my gas heater was running when in fact there was no combustion happening. I had the heater on in this running condition for about 20 minutes. Just wondering if the fuel pump keeps running with no apparent combustion, is the heater body filling up with raw gasoline? No manual talks about this situation.

Bill
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