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Front End/ Steering Jigsaw Puzzle
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Obertancat
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2023 8:15 am    Post subject: Front End/ Steering Jigsaw Puzzle Reply with quote

Hello,

Just picked up a 1974 Automatic 412. I've done Bugs, Things, Karmann Ghias, and Transporters, body off and not. But the parts situation with these Type 4 VWs is something else. I've trolled this board and learned a lot. Thanks.

Anyway, I bought the car with the front suspension and steering disassembled (was told that a young guy was going to restore the car but was dissuaded by his father; wonder why?) My reason for posting is that some of the parts don't seem kosher. Steering box and Pitman arm are still attached to car.

Going by the Haynes book,the idler arm bracket assembly seems wrong, although there was an idler arm, idler arm bushing and fitted bolt in the trunk. Here is the current inventory. This idler bracket seems more like one for a Super Beetle? The struts are hanging on the car. There is a tie rod attached to the passenger strut.


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Any insights would be appreciated.
_________________
1965 Beetle
1971 Ghia Coupe
1979 Super Beetle
1962 Easy Camper Transporter
1973 Thing
1974 Thing
1957 Oval Beetle
1974 Type 4 412
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2023 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Front End/ Steering Jigsaw Puzzle Reply with quote

Obertancat wrote:
Hello,

Just picked up a 1974 Automatic 412. I've done Bugs, Things, Karmann Ghias, and Transporters, body off and not. But the parts situation with these Type 4 VWs is something else. I've trolled this board and learned a lot. Thanks.

Anyway, I bought the car with the front suspension and steering disassembled (was told that a young guy was going to restore the car but was dissuaded by his father; wonder why?) My reason for posting is that some of the parts don't seem kosher. Steering box and Pitman arm are still attached to car.

Going by the Haynes book,the idler arm bracket assembly seems wrong, although there was an idler arm, idler arm bushing and fitted bolt in the trunk. Here is the current inventory. This idler bracket seems more like one for a Super Beetle? The struts are hanging on the car. There is a tie rod attached to the passenger strut.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Any insights would be appreciated.


Ok....Welcome to the type 4 world! Very Happy

The first picture is an idler arm from a Super Beetle. Now....the bracket may actually bolt up and work on a 411/412 as the super beetle used the same bushing and has the same bolt size. So I am not saying that it will not fit and work.

That sway bar in your first picture next to the idler arm bracket is NOT from a 411 or 412 and will not fit anywhere on the car.

In your second picture....on the right...that is the complete subframe with control arms and balljoints from a 411 or 412. It also has the

The loose idler arm and bolt with the bushing on it laying on the left in your second picture IS from a 411 or 412.

So see if the bolt and that loose arm will fit onto the idler arm bracket and see if the idler arm bracket holes line up with the holes in the body on the car. Don't worry. There are only three bolt holes in the body and four in the bracket. It only uses three.

The rotors look to be correct. Those are late 1972 to 1974 Rotors.

Ray
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Obertancat
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:30 am    Post subject: Re: Front End/ Steering Jigsaw Puzzle Reply with quote

Thank you, Sir.

I'll mess around with it today. There is a 411/412 bracket in the classified, so I can get that if need be. Question: Do you know if the center tie rod orientation/ length is the same for the 412 as for the Super Beetle?

It's kind of a neat car. I'll post some pictures when I can get out from under it.

Again, thanks.

Peter
_________________
1965 Beetle
1971 Ghia Coupe
1979 Super Beetle
1962 Easy Camper Transporter
1973 Thing
1974 Thing
1957 Oval Beetle
1974 Type 4 412
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2023 7:21 am    Post subject: Re: Front End/ Steering Jigsaw Puzzle Reply with quote

Obertancat wrote:
Thank you, Sir.

I'll mess around with it today. There is a 411/412 bracket in the classified, so I can get that if need be. Question: Do you know if the center tie rod orientation/ length is the same for the 412 as for the Super Beetle?

It's kind of a neat car. I'll post some pictures when I can get out from under it.

Again, thanks.

Peter


Oh....forgot to mention. That centerlink in your picture is from a Super beetle and will not fit. I think it's a little longer for one but it's also missing the boss and bushing where the steering damper connects on the 411 and 412.

You can still find centerlink for 411 and 412 on line NOS. They are fine....but they always had a short life because of poor nylon material inside. Get one and plan to rebuild it at 30-40k miles. I have a "how to" for rebuilding them using bronze bushings and washers and they will be better than stock, rarely wear out and if they do you can rebuild them again.

Rebuilding takes pretty common tools, about 3 hours and costs maybe $50 in parts or less. If you find a decent used one for cheap you could just rebuild it now.

Here is one on ebay

https://www.ebay.com/itm/195935475696?fits=Model%3...BM0JTmoOxi

I would also get ahold of Heimlich from NosVW here on the forums. I know he has some NOS and he has worked out seals for them. Most NOS 412 centerlinks come without seals these days.

Ray
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Obertancat
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2023 8:23 am    Post subject: Re: Front End/ Steering Jigsaw Puzzle Reply with quote

Thanks Ray,

I really appreciate that you went the extra step and actually located the part.

I went ahead and bought the idler bracket assembly off the classifieds.

At the risk of wearing out my welcome, please permit me this additional query.

I have a tie rod still attached to the passenger side strut assembly. Seems decent enough condition. At this point I just want the car to steer down the driveway so I can attend to the brakes, electrical and engine.

This rather unattractively priced one from eBay doesn't specific a specific side, leaving me to conclude that both struts are of equal length?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/196035014541

Thanks again.

Peter D'Adamo

BTW Your caliper restoration thread was awesome.
_________________
1965 Beetle
1971 Ghia Coupe
1979 Super Beetle
1962 Easy Camper Transporter
1973 Thing
1974 Thing
1957 Oval Beetle
1974 Type 4 412
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heimlich Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2023 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Front End/ Steering Jigsaw Puzzle Reply with quote

I've got the drag link but I haven't yet worked out the seals for it. I did finally get my type4 microfiche read in and I post below the one with the drag link in it. Maybe that will help you with the parts. Just for fun I put the suggested price from VW down below as well. In 1985 VW was selling these to dealers for $65 and suggesting over $100. Can you believe that?

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2568137

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Obertancat
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 11:16 am    Post subject: Re: Front End/ Steering Jigsaw Puzzle Reply with quote

Thank you! Very helpful.
_________________
1965 Beetle
1971 Ghia Coupe
1979 Super Beetle
1962 Easy Camper Transporter
1973 Thing
1974 Thing
1957 Oval Beetle
1974 Type 4 412
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 8:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Front End/ Steering Jigsaw Puzzle Reply with quote

I will try to help with the seals. I have a couple of methods that work...but look nothing like factory.

The original seal is a strange 70's urethane...almost like a modern TPU (thermoplastic urethane). Soft, gets gummy with age and not really a great seal design. It seals simply by being clamped but as it gets gummy and sometime later crispy...it shrinks up and no longer seals.

More later. Ray
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2023 12:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Front End/ Steering Jigsaw Puzzle Reply with quote

Obertancat wrote:
Thanks Ray,

I really appreciate that you went the extra step and actually located the part.

I went ahead and bought the idler bracket assembly off the classifieds.

At the risk of wearing out my welcome, please permit me this additional query.

I have a tie rod still attached to the passenger side strut assembly. Seems decent enough condition. At this point I just want the car to steer down the driveway so I can attend to the brakes, electrical and engine.

This rather unattractively priced one from eBay doesn't specific a specific side, leaving me to conclude that both struts are of equal length?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/196035014541

Thanks again.

Peter D'Adamo

BTW Your caliper restoration thread was awesome.


As for the tie rod...yes both are of equal length. Its rare to need a new tie rod unless one is missing.

That one on Ebay...if its new and you also need the rod itself....its a good deal...sadly.

Both tie rods are the same part # 411 417 361 A. Both inner tie rod ends are the same part # 311 415 818 B....and both outer tie rod ends are the same part # 311 415 811 C.....so they are both type 3 part #'s.

BUT....those two inner tie rod ends have a peculiar 9* angle to them. You "CAN" run the straight version of them with no steering issues but what it does its not too far down the line it rips the boots because it keeps them at an extreme angle.

Those angled tie rod ends are very hard to find. At ISP west, the angled tie rod ends 311 415 818B are $65.95 each.
https://vwispwest.com/tie-rod-end-left-side-inner-1968-on-angled-311415818b/

The straight outer ones 311 415 811 B are only about $15
https://vwispwest.com/tie-rod-end-left-side-outer-1968-1977-311415811c/

So just in tie rod ends you have $81. If that tie rod assembly is NOS...the extra $87 may be worth it because the quality of the tie rod ends will be better than what is currently available.

I can tell you from just a few years back that finding the angled tie rod ends is not easy.

Some threads on this

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

My solution:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=609730&highlight

This thread is just about type 4 tie rod ends and has a lot of part #'s

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=601656&highlight

Ray
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Obertancat
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2023 12:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Front End/ Steering Jigsaw Puzzle Reply with quote

Thanks Ray,

Yes, one of the tie rods was MIA. I will have to check and see if the ends are angled. It should be in today.

Picked up the correct 411-412 idler bracket, which came with the arm and a half-decent bushing. I have the snazzy SB bushing, so I'll probably swap it out anyway.

The center tie rod bracket that you found came in and yes, it is significantly shorter than the SB one I was given with the car. I hope to pop everything in tomorrow.

Once I can get it to steer I plan to rebuild the MC and move onto the rear brakes. I rebuilt the calipers as you described and I think they came out okay.

I suppose one could say that the constant need to jury-rig solutions, rehab original parts, and spend hours on the internet trying to locate non-locatable parts is a downside of the 411-412, but I'm kinda enjoying it.

Peter
_________________
1965 Beetle
1971 Ghia Coupe
1979 Super Beetle
1962 Easy Camper Transporter
1973 Thing
1974 Thing
1957 Oval Beetle
1974 Type 4 412
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