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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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 Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:39 am Post subject: Re: The Fuel Pump Problem, looking for complete solution |
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| titan3c wrote: |
| I'm going with the Airtex E2000. Now I need some fatherly advice---- or in my case father needs some sonly advice. Using this pump would you use the Y connection installation, or go straight to the tank? Or does it make any difference? Bob |
I have only used that pump twice. It worked very well. I used the double "Y" on both so I dont know how it runs without it. Some other high pressure pumps that are known to have suction issues like the Bosch 044.....I always use a feeder pump......so I have no data on straight through plumbing on my installs with either pump mentioned. I have seen it make a difference on a range of other pumps.
I would ask others who note that they have used this pump. My issue....is depending on which person you ask......I may not trust their diligence in the matter.
I am very attuned to my systems. Even when installing new or used three port pumps.....I listen carefully for cavitation sounds at all tank levels and check pressure carefully.
It would be a worthwhile careful test since you are worried about it......to plumb it straight through to start with. Start with a full tank and plumb jn an ACCURATE fuel gauge. Listen carefully and track fuel pressure at every major tank level. Ray |
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titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:22 am Post subject: Re: The Fuel Pump Problem, looking for complete solution |
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| Ok, so just to be sure I'm going the Y route. BTW, that brings up another question. Where is the connection for a fuel pressure gauge? |
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Lars S
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Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 783
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:39 am Post subject: Re: The Fuel Pump Problem, looking for complete solution |
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| titan3c wrote: |
| Ok, so just to be sure I'm going the Y route. BTW, that brings up another question. Where is the connection for a fuel pressure gauge? |
On one side of the engine, on the steel fuel rail between the injectors there is a plugged T. Just take the small schrew plug out and attach a gauge, secure with a clamp.
Lars S
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:43 am Post subject: Re: The Fuel Pump Problem, looking for complete solution |
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| titan3c wrote: |
| Ok, so just to be sure I'm going the Y route. BTW, that brings up another question. Where is the connection for a fuel pressure gauge? |
Look on the fuel rail on the left side of the engine compartment. There is a little nipple with a 7mm bolt. DO NOT lose the bolt or washer.
Get about 3' of fuel hose and two fuel injection clamps. In a pinch as others have noted you can get away with a 0-60 psi water pressure gauge...but since you are going to own a 412.....and pressure is critical...and sooner or later you will get in to REAL tuning....  ....I would recommend a "real" gauge. Do not buy a dedicated automotive fuel pressure test gauge. Unless you will be working on any modern cars that require the schrader valve attachment...it will be wasted money and most of the gauges in these sets are run of the mill as far as accuracy goes.
These are VERY GOOD...and worth the investment
http://www.mcmaster.com/#4240k7/=111ulyy about $80 and graduated at 0.5 psi and accurate to 1% of the full scale...grade 1A...about $80
http://www.mcmaster.com/#3845k5/=111umz8
This is the mimiumum quality gauge I would use for tuning....grade A accurate to 1% at middle of scale range and has 1 psi marks....about $30
http://www.mcmaster.com/#3548k11/=111up4h
This is a pretty good one as well. Has pressure in bars and psi...glycerin filled...1.5% of full scale accuracy ....but be aware it has British standard pipe thread so order the nipple for the fuel hose at the same time. Good deal for about $35. Increments of 1 psi. Since the list of gauge sizes is in bars...you will need a 4 bar gauge...thats about 57 psi.
Ray
http://www.mcmaster.com/#3548k11/=111up4h |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22402
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: The Fuel Pump Problem, looking for complete solution |
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| titan3c wrote: |
| Ok, so just to be sure I'm going the Y route. BTW, that brings up another question. Where is the connection for a fuel pressure gauge? |
Those of us in the type 3 forum do away with the "Y" when going to either the Airtex E2000 or the Precision brand E16020 pump. The reason for doing away with the "Y" is then you don't have to plug it off. I've installed 4 of these pumps on type 3s in the past 8 years, and I've only had 1 of them go bad in that time, and it was a brand new one out of the box that was getting installed in 2014. That pump went back to O'Rielly's, and a new one was installed that didn't leak. The oldest one I installed in 2007 on my wife's Fastback.
If you do a search in the type 3 forum, you'll find quite a few of us who have switched to that style of pump, and I know Dave Pallo (Raiderss) has gone from NY to western Missouri and back, along with NY to Colorado Springs and back without a fuel pump related issue since going to the Airtex pump.
We found out about this pump from Russ Wolfe, as he had a Bosch pump fail on him, and was looking for an affordable replacement. For those of you who don't know who Russ was, he was a VW dealer trained line mechanic (in the mid 60's after getting out of the Navy), a Mahle MFG employee (machine tool builder), and a forum moderator here on the Samba. He was also my friend.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:41 pm Post subject: Re: The Fuel Pump Problem, looking for complete solution |
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Thera ya go.....good advice.
As I noted.....the double "Y" is only installed where its proven to be needed. That woule be on high pressure roller cell pumps that normally use a feeder pump
.....but you are not using one.
The current generation of turbine pumps like the Airtex 2000 and others are surprisingly good....especially for the limited needs of D-jet. Ray |
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titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:42 am Post subject: Re: The Fuel Pump Problem, looking for complete solution |
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I've noticed the thought of using nylon fuel line with quick disconnect was mentioned. What is the advantage of using nylon? It looks interesting to me.. Also the quick disconnect fittings have barbed hose fittings. I'm assuming no hose clamp is needed----is that correct?
I see there are numerous types of quick disconnect fittings available. My thought is that a squeeze to release type would be best. Could these quick release fittings be used on the rubber hose too? |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:50 am Post subject: Re: The Fuel Pump Problem, looking for complete solution |
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| titan3c wrote: |
I've noticed the thought of using nylon fuel line with quick disconnect was mentioned. What is the advantage of using nylon? It looks interesting to me.. Also the quick disconnect fittings have barbed hose fittings. I'm assuming no hose clamp is needed----is that correct?
I see there are numerous types of quick disconnect fittings available. My thought is that a squeeze to release type would be best. Could these quick release fittings be used on the rubber hose too? |
All modern cars use as much nylon as possible in places where rubber would normally be used. They only use rubber in certain spots any more...where maximum flexibility is needed....like for short sections between the end of the fuel rail and the fire wall.
I used to hate push lock fittimgs for fuel injection. ....just hated them......because the earlier plastics used in the bayonet style injector to fuel rail o-ring joints typically started leaking with high miles and new o-rings wouldnt fix it. Still not sold on bayonett stye injectors but will admit,they are now pretty damn dependable..
I am officially a nylon fuel line fan. I will be using all nylon,wherever I can.
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Benefits: no issues whatsoever with pressure or with fuel composition...its cheap as well.
Risks: its top end temp ...sustained.......is about 300F. Even then about 275 is safer. Its safe to use in a correctly sealed ACVW engine compartment....BUT......it must be carefully routed and sited to keep it away from radiant heat soak and the exhaust system.
The push fit connectors ......just like fuel iniection electrical connectors. ...every company seemed to scramble to make their own damn connector system instead of staying with what works best.
Some of the earlier American car company connectors absolutely suck. They seal very well.....but are notorious for cracking parts of the connector when its taken open to change a component. ..and leaving you stranded.
But they have gotten quite good. Most of the late model Ford....SOME of the late model GM and most of the connectors from Europe and Japan......are excellent.
But.....there are TONS of killer connectors out there. There are a full range of screw in connectors for each end of a lot of the late model Bosch and other turbine and roller cell pumps. This is why I will be using one of the Bosch pumps with a 14mm female screw fitying inlet and outlet.
It allows you to buy for cheap on line.....screw in barbs, gasketed banjo style fittings....or screw in push lock connectors from any manufacturer....making fuel pump hook up very easy.
Also using a modern filter for either inlet side or pressure side.....allows using push lock fittings straight to the filter.
The rest of the connections that dont need to ever really be taken loose except for overhaul maintenance. ...like connections to the fuel damper, and the connection of the nylon lines to th3 body tunnel steel line....will be barbs.
There are a great many barbs available out there.....brass, stainless, hard nylon....sharp barbs, soft barbs, single barbs....barbs with female push connectors on them and barbs with male connectors on them, barbs with banjo fittings on them, barbs with screw threads male and female on them etc......bluntly put.....barbs that will allow you to make the end of the nylon tubing easily connect to anything you want or need.
I have been working on how to permanently curve nylon line.....its not hard....and works well.
Joining a barbed fitting to a nylon line to a barbed fitting is the hardest part. There are many sites online about this.
The factory/dealer method is to heat the nylon in boiling water. It needs to hit boiling. Then they use in some cases....a special pliers...or tools that are literally made from a caulking gun with dies that hold the line and the fitting and press them together.
The issue that comes to mind.....is what the hell do you do if you need to replace a line section in the middle of nowhere. Actually......its not hard.
I have been able to take threaded fittings....meaning take a fitting with the pushlock you require......whether its male or female....on one end......and remove all the threads except for just about 1/4 of thread length on the tip.
Use a two flute tap that is slightly undersized to the hose ID... to very lightly tap the inside of the end of the hose. You just want light threads. This does not cut any deeper into the nylon than the barbs of a barbed fittings so its not an issue.
Then screw the fitting into the tube. Now....remember. ...the threads are only on the tip.....and the area you sanded away the threads....is just about ID size on the nylon tube. So in reality....its now very similar in shape to the ends of the fuel rails and injectors of D-jet....smooth tube with a single bump in the end.
When you do this on the bench...you then heat the nylon tube with a torch LIGHTLY.....then apply a fuel injection clamp in the smooth area where you ground away the threads.
You can also take a barbed fitting.....take a file an knock off just the sharpest edges of the barb....so its like the soft barbs you can buy. Then take an appropriate sized thread die.....and superimpose threads on the barb section.
Use stainless steel barbs for this but it should work with brass as well. Then you can just screw the fitting into the end of a nylon tube......and apply a clamp for safety.
Ray |
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titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: The Fuel Pump Problem, looking for complete solution |
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| Real clever-----I like those kind of ideas. I just now jacked up my car, and have it on work stands in prep for installing the new pump. I surveyed the situation and have a couple of simple questions. One, does it make any difference which connection on the tank goes to the filter and pump. It looked to me mine was opposite to what I thought it should be. Also I noticed the pump had a plug in power connection----I suppose that should just be clipped and make connections for the new pump. Bob |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: The Fuel Pump Problem, looking for complete solution |
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| titan3c wrote: |
| Real clever-----I like those kind of ideas. I just now jacked up my car, and have it on work stands in prep for installing the new pump. I surveyed the situation and have a couple of simple questions. One, does it make any difference which connection on the tank goes to the filter and pump. It looked to me mine was opposite to what I thought it should be. Also I noticed the pump had a plug in power connection----I suppose that should just be clipped and make connections for the new pump. Bob |
Yes.....the inlet and outlet are specific from the tank. I wi look at mine to verify....but if memory serves....the right side is out and left side is in. The outlet from the tank has a sock filter on it.....whch you should remove snd put an external strainer. If not.....it will sooner or later get clogged....usually in the middle of nowhwre.....causing you t have to drain the tank to get it out.
You can use a nice cartridge strainer before the filter or use very cheap inline diesel fuel filters before the main filter i wi post a part number in the am. Ray |
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titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:34 am Post subject: Re: The Fuel Pump Problem, looking for complete solution |
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| Whoa----I didn't know about the sock filter. How does that come out? Bob |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:37 am Post subject: Re: The Fuel Pump Problem, looking for complete solution |
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| titan3c wrote: |
| Whoa----I didn't know about the sock filter. How does that come out? Bob |
You will notice that the fuel inlet and outlet to the tank go into the center of a large nut. That nut comes off.....and the inlet and outlet tube is one unit.....welded to a round metal sealing disc.
The fuel tube unit only fits in one direction. It has a square notch that is keyed to the tank opening. It also has a stamped fiber gasket.
Dont lose or tear that gasket up. The problem with that gasket.......a rubber gasket cannot,replace it. As you tighten the nut.....it crushes a rubber gasket until it just shreds.
The fiber/paper gasket is about .060" thick and starts to compress and then becomes solid so the nut will get tight and the tank is sealed. Its really a "gland" type seal.
You can take the original seal and coat it with very, very thin RTV on the outside face of it if the seal os getting a little chewed up.
I sulpose since ai have mine out....now would be the time to measure it and shop for a replacement. Its not that you wouldn't be able to find something......its just that 99% of the time.......people don't find out they have this seal......until they are under the gun.
You dont usually have this fuel pickup out......unless you are stuck somewhere with a clogged sock filter.....or unless you are lucky enough to have the tank out for refurb and have time on your side. Ray. |
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titan3c
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Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:24 am Post subject: Re: The Fuel Pump Problem, looking for complete solution |
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With my feeble mind I don't have it clear as to where the sock filter is. Is it in side the outlet tube?
Fuel seems to be flowing good, but I had some bad experience on a 76 Cadillac years ago with that problem, and I know it can happen wthout too much warning. So if I can eliminate that possibility-----now would be a good time. Bob |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:34 am Post subject: Re: The Fuel Pump Problem, looking for complete solution |
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| titan3c wrote: |
With my feeble mind I don't have it clear as to where the sock filter is. Is it in side the outlet tube?
Fuel seems to be flowing good, but I had some bad experience on a 76 Cadillac years ago with that problem, and I know it can happen wthout too much warning. So if I can eliminate that possibility-----now would be a good time. Bob |
Below is the diagram of the tank and parts list. the part in question is #21 on the diagram. The seal is #19. The L shaped tube that the straner goes on is the tank outlet to the fuel filter and pump.
The picture below shows the actual rubberized fiber gasket (red arrow) and the cam slots that only allow the plate and tube assembly to go in one way (green arrow)
Ray |
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titan3c
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Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: The Fuel Pump Problem, looking for complete solution |
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Thanks Ray----that is a big help. So now I think I will drain the tank, and remove everything, pull the inlet, and outlet assy, and replace the sock filter.
BTW---When I got to the fuel pump, and pulled the elec connection it was wet on the outside around the elec plug, and that end of the pump----and it smelled like gasoline. Bob |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: The Fuel Pump Problem, looking for complete solution |
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| titan3c wrote: |
Thanks Ray----that is a big help. So now I think I will drain the tank, and remove everything, pull the inlet, and outlet assy, and replace the sock filter.
BTW---When I got to the fuel pump, and pulled the elec connection it was wet on the outside around the elec plug, and that end of the pump----and it smelled like gasoline. Bob |
Its either hoses leaking....or at this age...its commoy either the o-rings of the pump or the seal in the releif valve section.
Keep an eye on it but plan for a new pump.
When draining the tank...iust in case you don't know. ...it has a tank drain plug. You need a short arm 8mm allen key.
I woule be surprised if you can find a new sock filter. I would cut it out. Then use an inline diesel strainer or order a 100 micro strainer cartridge from Summit racing. I will post a number for the cheap diesel filters whch they sell for like $1 each and are perfect.
Ray |
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titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: The Fuel Pump Problem, looking for complete solution |
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| Question: How do I get the tube assy loose? The ring is off, but the tube assy doesn't seem to want to come out. I'm hesitant to apply any pressure until I know what I'm doing. Bob |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: The Fuel Pump Problem, looking for complete solution |
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| titan3c wrote: |
| Question: How do I get the tube assy loose? The ring is off, but the tube assy doesn't seem to want to come out. I'm hesitant to apply any pressure until I know what I'm doing. Bob |
Bear in mind itw been stuck to a gasket for 40+ years. Spray some oil on it and tqp the tubes a little side ro side. And pull on it. It will loosen up. Ray |
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titan3c
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Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:48 am Post subject: Re: The Fuel Pump Problem, looking for complete solution |
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| Also---Doesn't it twist to the left to release? |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:35 am Post subject: Re: The Fuel Pump Problem, looking for complete solution |
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| titan3c wrote: |
| Also---Doesn't it twist to the left to release? |
I will have to check this morning....but no....if memory serves it should not have to twist at all. Give ne about an hour. Ray |
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