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Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76-79 Buses & 80-82 Vanagons CAT
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porky79
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:51 am    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vana Reply with quote

An answer to my/our prayer? Just for kicks I looked at the CARB approved list of catalytic converters for bus years 77 thru 79 and what do you know! They have updated their list for the bus to include a Walker Mfg. p/n 80801 with EO D-182-54. And its a PC-1 !!! Now there are both type T-1 and PC-1 listed as approved for the bus. I'm going to get the bus smogged ASAP with my PC-1 cat before something changes ! Hahahaaa!!! Very Happy

https://ssl.arb.ca.gov/PartsSearchTool/CatalystSearchTool.aspx

There is a Walker cat #80801 on Amazon for 132 bucks. It might be a workable solution for anyone that needs a cat.

Autozone lists it for 185 bucks - at least it could be inspected and measured at Autozone!!! Good luck to all. William
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vana Reply with quote

I hope the PC1 holds. I sent a letter politely to Secretary Nichols last month asking that CARB consider including PC1 since some buses have been passing with them the last few years and it would be against California state's intentions to remove a good working PC1 cat to replace it with a T1 that required considerable butchery to the air cooled exhaust, and unnecessary expense to the owner. In fact buses are kinda like California - surfers, buses, palm trees and In and Out. In the meantime we will keep working on a T1 solution because people who need a catalytic can't rely on a PC1 solution forever unless CARB revamps its rules completely. My focus is soley on air cooled buses and vanagons.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vana Reply with quote

porky79 wrote:
I'm going to get the bus smogged ASAP with my PC-1 cat before something changes ! Hahahaaa!!! Very Happy

Best of luck with that. If yours is an Emico cat, better first check the specific E.O. applicable to your model to make sure it hasn't been rescinded.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vana Reply with quote

SlowLane wrote:
porky79 wrote:
I'm going to get the bus smogged ASAP with my PC-1 cat before something changes ! Hahahaaa!!! Very Happy

Best of luck with that. If yours is an Emico cat, better first check the specific E.O. applicable to your model to make sure it hasn't been rescinded.


An EO lasts as long as the catalytic is purchased and installed before the EO expires. My understanding is that CARB assumes that the seller is the shop installing it, so the sale and installation date would be the same.

Folks here should be aware that air cooled Buses and air cooled Vanagons with the same engine etc., have a different database of acceptable catalytics. What shows for an air cooled bus is not the same as an air cooled vanagon. We have not won that battle yet. That tripped me up with your Vanagon where you and I differed on the subject a while back. It wasn't until I compared Online databases that I realized we are being treated as completely different vehicles. Additionally, the database changes so what is true yesterday is not the same as tomorrow and beyond. One encouraging thing I noticed was in a small engine workshop here a few weeks ago. I read the PowerPoint on it, and the author seemed to be implying that CARB wanted to realign California as much as possible with US EPA rules, with a couple small exceptions. If they eventually decided to adopt that same approach with catalytics that would be awesome - do like the 48 states do instead of being the odd one out. The original CARB II rules were to prevent consumer fraud where people were sold inferior products which did not last. It was also to slow the fraud of some shops insisting a catalytic was bad when it was not just to make a sale. Anyway here is the CARB statement from their webpage:

Quote:
The following Executive Orders for aftermarket catalytic converters have been rescinded or withdrawn. The rescission and withdrawal prohibit the manufacturers, their agents, and any businesses connected with these converters from production, advertisement, offer for sale, sale, and installation of the converters. Distributors of these converters must stop sale and contact the manufacturers for procedures on product return.
Affected converters sold on or before their rescission or withdrawal date, are legal for use and installation in California. Affected converters sold after their rescission or withdrawal date, are not legal for use or installation in California.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vana Reply with quote

Okay, here's my deal. I've been working for the last few weeks on a California 1979 bus. Converting it back to fuel injection. The engine is complete and running on my test stand right now but I need to replace the CAT. Today I went onto the CARB site and found this chart

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It looks to me like the Walker 80801 CalCat Universal Catalytic Converter which they list as 14.8 inches long would be my best chance. Like was said, Amazon has this for $132. Not sure what the original CAT measures out to right now.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Am I on the right track here? Should I get the new CAT and take the bus to my local muffler shop and have them weld on the flanges and make it fit? Ultimately we want this bus to be California legal.

PS- The reason I think the Walker will work better is because of the length, it's shorter than the Magnaflow units by about 3 inches.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vana Reply with quote

Gary and I discussed this in a pm.

My understanding is that the person testing the smog may be asked by the system to type in the EO number on the Catalytic converter. The BAR system will then pass or fail the cat based on that EO number. If there is no EO on file or it is for the wrong type vehicle then the vehicle gets flunked. The owner can then ask for a referee. It is a common practice for manufacturers to ask for their EO's on the older cats to be rescinded when they bring out a new line of cats. My understanding is that if the cat was purchased and installed while the EO was valid then it is always valid. I believe that there is supposed to be a process to register the cat to the car when it is installed but don't quote me on that. I would guess that if a cat EO is no longer valid and the system says flunk, then a receipt showing when it was purchased and installed would be all that someone would need to prove it was installed while the EO was valid. Keep those receipts showing when it was bought and installed.

The 1975-78 crossover back system was delivered to Magnaflow this morning and they are beginning to do the design work on the 75-78 and 79 - 82 Federal cat back system.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vana Reply with quote

product development at Magnaflow wrote that they are starting CAD work today and will start building soon.

Quote:
... will design the fixtures in cad today and should have parts from our laser tomorrow. And start building a prototype

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vana Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
product development at Magnaflow wrote that they are starting CAD work today and will start building soon.

Marvelous news, Steve! Great work and thanks for persevering. Applause

Aeromech: I think you may find either the Magnaflow or the Walker to be a tough fit on the '79 CA because the original cat has those flanges offset from the centerline of the cat. I know for a fact that the Magnaflow's ports are concentric with the cat body, and I strongly suspect the Walker does as well.

FWIW, the original cat body is 11.5" flange-to-flange, as shown by chris' and porky's photos earlier in this thread.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vana Reply with quote

Looks good to me. Hard to see in the pics but the length of the new one is a bit less than 9 inches plus the inlet and outlet. I think a muffler shop should have no problem welding it in.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:

In 2009 California and New York passed laws to prevent cheap and used cats from being sold. Each model sold has to be approved by the state. Because the bus is considered a derivative of a truck, (sports van), it has to have a truck approved cat. There are well made good quality 48 state versions that will fit by they are not legal to sell in California or New York. Nothing that is certified for the bus fits. There are not enough buses to sell these to in CA and NY that will justify the expense of making a new model cat that fits. Magnaflow lists 4 models that fit. They are 18" long and they actually don't fit a 12" opening. Either they need to make them fit, or remove them from the approved list. That way the state can issue waivers on people whose buses need a cat. Unfortunately getting a cat approved requires a specific test that costs too much for the out of state manufacturers to be interested. The whole thing is a huge mess.


Steve none of that matters for NY residents, there is no emissions testing for Buses here, nor does it need to pass a visual inspection. A Bus gets a safety only inspection, as do Vanagons. It would pass if it has no exhaust whatsoever on it.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VDubTech wrote:
SGKent wrote:

In 2009 California and New York passed laws to prevent cheap and used cats from being sold. Each model sold has to be approved by the state. Because the bus is considered a derivative of a truck, (sports van), it has to have a truck approved cat. There are well made good quality 48 state versions that will fit by they are not legal to sell in California or New York. Nothing that is certified for the bus fits. There are not enough buses to sell these to in CA and NY that will justify the expense of making a new model cat that fits. Magnaflow lists 4 models that fit. They are 18" long and they actually don't fit a 12" opening. Either they need to make them fit, or remove them from the approved list. That way the state can issue waivers on people whose buses need a cat. Unfortunately getting a cat approved requires a specific test that costs too much for the out of state manufacturers to be interested. The whole thing is a huge mess.


Steve none of that matters for NY residents, there is no emissions testing for Buses here, nor does it need to pass a visual inspection. A Bus gets a safety only inspection, as do Vanagons. It would pass if it has no exhaust whatsoever on it.


Thank you. I knew that and that is what helps create the problem. The legislature here assumed other states would pass the same laws but they did not. Only NY passed the new cat certification law but it is moot on buses because NY does not smog that far back. So - Calif ends up being the only state that requires these specially certified cats - which means that if 3 get sold a year no one wants to make them. Magnaflow agreed to handle it because they told CARB their universal models would fit all. Now when they don't fit our buses they can't pull them or they pull them on all 10,000 other vehicle models too - hence why they are going to make them work for us. My best guess is that Magnaflow will make a cat and high performance muffler combination so they can sell them as an upgrade in all 50 states. Probably sell a delete pipe as an option on Federal models. At least that is the direction I have encouraged them to go. Whether someone wants a high performance cat and muffler or just a muffler, they would be able to fir components from Magnaflow on. Folks here who need one to pass smog, or someone in Wyoming who wants more performance, both would have options on a system with the original heat exchangers and crossover from 1975 to 1982. (except California models post 1979 however they already have an option like Gary is using.)
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:50 am    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vana Reply with quote

Update:

I spent a bit of time this weekend working on the CAT. The original had broken ceramic rattling around inside that was driving me crazy so I pulled it and cleaned it out. Now it's just a hollow tube.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here's a pic of it removed

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So, I reinstalled the old CAT using new hardware. The rattling is gone. Sometime, probably after the engine is installed I'll get the new CAT welded in place.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:03 am    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vana Reply with quote

Does anyone else find it sad that it is easier to get a big manufacturer to R&D and produce a new CAT (in relatively small numbers)then it is for the state to just change a law, or just a date on an existing law for that matter, to exempt 40 year old cars from such strict emissions standards? No wonder nothing gets done in this country!

SGKent you are a god-damned hero!
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:02 am    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vana Reply with quote

I read stuff like this and think...what a shit show...

I suppose I could see it being an issue with "real" cars, say from the 80's-90's (as in, you can cruise 75+ with the a/c on)
but I guess the question is, how many of these "obsolete" cars are still on the road in CA?

there has to be a # somewhere of how many 20+ year old cars are still in service out there, used for DAILY DRIVER status....I'm not talking about a 90 M3 that gets used on weekends (if that makes sense) but collector cars that are not used that much....I mean if someone is rocking a 88 excel on a daily basis, yea, that should have to pass, but I don't know...seems that all that "clean air" out there has gone straight to the brain and removed common sense.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vana Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
I read stuff like this and think...what a shit show...

I suppose I could see it being an issue with "real" cars, say from the 80's-90's (as in, you can cruise 75+ with the a/c on)
but I guess the question is, how many of these "obsolete" cars are still on the road in CA?

there has to be a # somewhere of how many 20+ year old cars are still in service out there, used for DAILY DRIVER status....I'm not talking about a 90 M3 that gets used on weekends (if that makes sense) but collector cars that are not used that much....I mean if someone is rocking a 88 excel on a daily basis, yea, that should have to pass, but I don't know...seems that all that "clean air" out there has gone straight to the brain and removed common sense.


I read somewhere that people estimate that only 10% of all air cooled VW's are still around from the 50's, 60's and 70's. If that number is anywhere near accurate, it means there's still at least a million or two of these old, air cooled VW's around the country. I bet less than 5% are still daily drivers? So, that leaves very few of these cars running around, polluting the environment.

I think most states and counties should only smog cars that are 30 years old or newer. How often do any of us really see cars on the road these days made in the 80's or even 70's? Not very often.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vana Reply with quote

once a car hits 25 years old, you don't get tested in Connecticut anymore.

but, as you point out how many 25 year old cars are still jamming around out here? most rot away in 15-20 years anyway. that leaves "collector" cars and for us, the season is March-November...usually. at that, the weather has to be near perfect for most to pull them out of the garage.

this year we have seen no salt as of yet so I am still driving them. cold don't cause rust Laughing
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vana Reply with quote

^^Yup. Mass it's 15 years. Spent a couple of blissfull years driving my 97 Saturn with the check engine light blaring in my face. Made no difference on inspection day. Like Skills sez after 15 years most up here are dust in the wind, swiss cheese, or if they're restored then they are tucked in the garage waiting for sunny summer days. In the last 3 years of daily driving my bug I have seen one, count 'em one, other ACVW out in winter, another bug with VT plates out on Rt. 2. THATS IT.
Can't imagine not having to battle the rust out in the SW, driving them year round and being to work on 'em outside year round must be a blast. The trade-off is I get water out of my tap all year long...
Sorry for hijacking...back to Magnaflow....
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vana Reply with quote

All you classic car owners in Cali can thank Governor "Moon Beam"....they still hug trees and have jaded insight. For gods sake there is a drought for the farmers because they want to save type of "shad" ....what an effed up state with their priorities in the wrong place! Perhaps they should attempt their focus on the Mexican Mafia and the 1/2 million tons of cheap crystal meth... Nope lets worry about a 70's Bus! Huge Kudos to Steve for even attempting to help out the Bus community! Find a relative who lives out of state that you trust....sell them your Bus. Title it there.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:51 am    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vana Reply with quote

Gary, it doesn't take a whole lot to weld new flanges on that new cat, then bolt it right in like it is supposed to be. That's what I had to do with my '87 Vanagon "universal fit" (which didn't fit, of course) cat. If you weld that new cat in there, you will increase the difficulty of removing it if it needs to be pulled to correct an exhaust leak somewhere in the system or some other disassembly issue, etc.

If that old cat is trash, cut off those flanges and weld them on the new one. If not, using mild steel 1/4" plate is easy enough to fabricate new flanges.

BTW, your fuel injection fuel pump supply unit in its dedicated case gave me some wood! Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vana Reply with quote

Thanks Steven,
The plan is to use the original flanges off the old cat and then it would be removable as you said. My problem right now is that my welder went to Texas for Christmas so I'm SOL. I may reinstall the engine and take the whole thing to the muffler shop or wait until he returns and get him to do the job. He's a fantastic welder.

It was fun building the fuel pump rig. The box cost me $25 and was a military surplus night vision goggle case. I bought the fuel pressure gauge for $15 and the pump off eBay for around $30. The rest of the parts were just laying around. It includes a master red guarded switch, a fuse holder, and a green "run" light that comes on when the pump runs. You can't hear the fuel pump run with all the noise so the light works out well.

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It was Telford's suggestion to build the box.
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