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Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76-79 Buses & 80-82 Vanagons CAT
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SGKent Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:49 am    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons Reply with quote

the catalytic needs to be something like within one inch of the location from the engine ports as it was on the factory unit or something like that if they get technical. You'd have to read the specs - I am not a specialist in designing smog exhausts. I do know that one issue we ran into was the cat needs to be a T1 cat and not a P1 cat although CARB & BAR started wavering P1 cats this year on some year buses - but I don't know how long that will last again.

Lyle - they are going to sell that unit as a direct fit so it needs a new EO. Should be any day. I am hoping it breathes better than the Emico. I'll know more when I can measure the final unit.

I thought Wyoming doesn't smog? Why would you need a cat if you are going to be leaving the state to one that does not smog?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:05 am    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:

Lyle - they are going to sell that unit as a direct fit so it needs a new EO.

That still doesn't make much sense. The 339916 model which started this whole thing for me was marketed as a Direct Fit converter for my Vanagon (and as we know, it was anything but a Direct Fit). It was covered under E.O. D-193-105.
But, who knows. Magnaflow is obviously a lot closer to and more knowledgeable about these things, so I'm sure they are doing what they need to do. As you say, let's hope the new E.O. identifies it as a T1 cat.

SGKent wrote:

Should be any day. I am hoping it breathes better than the Emico. I'll know more when I can measure the final unit.

Yaaaay! Fingers crossed.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:12 am    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons Reply with quote

SlowLane wrote:
As you say, let's hope the new E.O. identifies it as a T1 cat.


That was the whole idea behind this drill.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:18 am    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons Reply with quote

HerrMahnenschmidt wrote:
SGKent wrote:
HerrMahnenschmidt - are you looking for a cat? What year bus, and is it Federal or California?


YessirIam. 1977 CA-spec Westy.

Didn't know there was a difference between Federal and CA-spec in '77. Thought the difference started with the '79 model and the use of an O2 sensor + 3-way cat.

HerrMahnenschmidt wrote:

I was wondering, though -- would it be CARB-sanctioned to reproduce a stock exhaust system in stainless? Does the muffler have to be stock to pass smog?

Check earlier in this thread. BusJe modified a RockyMountainWesty stainless-steel Vanagon exhaust setup to his '79 Federal with a CARB-compliant cat (the Magnaflow 339004, I think). It passed. Looks sweet, too. That exact solution won't work for your '77 because of the flange differences, but at least it suggests that stainless is okay.
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Last edited by SlowLane on Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:21 am    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons Reply with quote

Slowlane - it was easier to ask the question that way. CA 75 - 78 and Fed 79 - 82 take the same T1 cat I believe. Fed 75- 78 take a delete pipe. CA 79 - 82 use a different cat that one can be made to fit from a universal.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:33 am    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
Slowlane - it was easier to ask the question that way. CA 75 - 78 and Fed 79 - 82 take the same T1 cat I believe. Fed 75- 78 take a delete pipe. CA 79 - 82 use a different cat that one can be made to fit from a universal.

Ahh, okay, got it. Thought that only Canadian vehicles got the coveted delete pipe and that all you 'Mericans were stuck with the 2-way cat from 75-78. Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons Reply with quote

FWIW I thought that a Federal model without a cat could simply add a cat to help run cleaner but was told by someone lately that when they asked about that with BAR they were told that the car would be automatically flunked because it came without a cat, unless they were willing to change the registration from Federal to California, in which case they would be forever tested as a California vehicle.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:29 am    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
I thought Wyoming doesn't smog? Why would you need a cat if you are going to be leaving the state to one that does not smog?


I should clarify that we have moved *back* to California from Wyoming (yeah, I know, why? Because grandkids and family, both pretty compelling.)

Bus was originally a California vehicle, delivered to Los Angeles. Original exhaust had/has a cat. I replaced it in Wyoming, but now I am back in California. I assume the nice Shocked smog people are going to want the vehicle returned to original configuration.

Wasn't aware that Fed and CA cats were the same for 77. That's interesting to know. Anyway, I am either going to source or fabricate a reproduction exhaust in SS, and pretty sure I will need a new cat, as the old one (in WY) is pretty beat up.

Thank you for you efforts and shared knowledge on this topic.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons Reply with quote

I think it is GREAT thing you guys are doing pursuing this tedious but necessary venture. Thought I'd throw in a few tidbits for amusement.

SlowLane wrote:
...Didn't know there was a difference between Federal and CA-spec in '77. Thought the difference started with the '79 model and the use of an O2 sensor + 3-way cat.


Here is the emissions sticker from my 1977 California import bus:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is me fighting to fit up aftermarket exhaust parts with the new Emico CAT. (not Emico's fault!) There is no O2 sensor for 1977, but the CAT is built with the port, You can use that port as a place for your LM-2 analyzer, I guess. Hopefully, when Magnaflow releases the final product, it will also have the port. Soon after I bought my Emico CAT per Steve's suggestion, they damn near doubled their pricing. What cost me a bout $280 delivered wound up being close to $600 on my last inquiry. Mad

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is the very first attempt to pass a smog check after my engine refresh and exhaust system rebuild. Vey happy was I. Very Happy

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:45 am    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons Reply with quote

Wasted youth wrote:

SlowLane wrote:
...Didn't know there was a difference between Federal and CA-spec in '77. Thought the difference started with the '79 model and the use of an O2 sensor + 3-way cat.


Here is the emissions sticker from my 1977 California import bus:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Just so you're aware. the cat referred to on your sticker would have been a 2-way cat, not a 3-way. It's impossible to source a 2-way cat for this application now, so we're stuck with installing 3-way cats.
It had been my misunderstanding that all US buses for '75-'78 had the 2-way cat installed, but Steve clarified that that was only the case for California models.

Quote:
Here is me fighting to fit up aftermarket exhaust parts with the new Emico CAT. (not Emico's fault!) There is no O2 sensor for 1977, but the CAT is built with the port, You can use that port as a place for your LM-2 analyzer, I guess. Hopefully, when Magnaflow releases the final product, it will also have the port.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The O2 bung in the Emico cat can indeed be used to house a wide-band sensor. The new Magnaflow cat should also be coming with an O2 bung. The prototype shell test-fitted by Steve and me did have one. Technically, the new Magnaflow doesn't actually need the bung, since none of the targeted vehicles came with O2 sensors, but it's such a nice option to have that I don't think we'll want to be pointing this minor detail out to Magnaflow.

A couple of notes about your Emico cat:
    1. You will probably find that it fits better if you clock it 60 degrees counter-clockwise from where you have it shown in the picture (using the picture as a reference for clocking direction). The O2 bung should be facing upwards. O2 sensors need to be installed with their tips facing downwards to avoid water accumulation. This will also rotate your muffler into a more agreeable position, but will likely also mean that you'll have to clock your tailpipe 60 degrees the opposite direction.

    2. Assuming that you have the same Emico cat that I have, it will have the stamp E.O. D-280-72. If so, then there are a couple of strikes against that cat.
      2a. E.O. D-280-72 was withdrawn by the cat manufacturer Airtek effective 10/15/2013, so if you purchased it after that date, the smog tech can reject it as non-compliant, if he chose to.

      2b. The Airtek cat covered by E.O. D-280-72 is for a passenger car (P1) application, not a truck (T1) application, which is what bit me when I took my van to the smog referee. He insisted that I install a T1 cat.


If your cat has a different E.O. number, please share it with us. Could it possibly be that Emico has provided us with a T1 solution after all?
Oh, and your smog numbers are enviably good. I'm quite jealous.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:04 am    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons Reply with quote

I didn't know this two-way style was NLA. I thought I looked at Emico about a year and a half ago and they were still available, but time marches on I guess.

Arrow I thought the new development would support first and second year Vanagons. They have O2 sensors and this style CAT, and will need that port.

The CAT in my picture was indeed clocked incorrectly, Steve stepped in and showed me how to set it right. (In the German Chocolate thread) but the reason the fit up was poor was actually because of the new three-way F pipe thingy had its flanges welded crooked.

That bus ran great. Only a couple of troubles with fuel delivery, double relay and the T2 sensor. Once those worked out, it was sweet! But I couldn't keep them all, and decided to sell it and hold onto the 1973 bus so I would not have to deal with smog checks in the coming years. However, I totally regret selling it.

I still have the paperwork on that CAT, but don't know how much good information is included. I will look when I can and edit this post if it helps.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons Reply with quote

what happened is that the PC1 cat was accepted for quite some time. ARB even showed them. Then ARB started enforcing the PC1 vs T1 thing and Slowlane got turned down. I started writing letters and making calls on my own time since I work for a sister agency and come across some of the folks daily. Sometime this year ARB included the PC1 as acceptable for VW buses but I don't think they have for Vanagons. At any rate it can change again in a heartbeat if someone updates a database without knowing why PC1 is being allowed for a VW bus. Technically a bus shows as a car at DMV (or used to) but all were IMPORTED by VW as trucks, and that is why it shows as a TRUCK with ARB standards. When the magnaflow exhaust is done then we will have a T1 direct fit so it becomes a moot point. What I really want out of the next state senate and assembly is a return to allowing 49 state cats. The issue that brought about CARB II is that people bought a cat from a small shop, then they burned some weird cheap fuel, Brad Penn oil (yes the high zinc will void a cat warranty if you tell them you run it) and/or additive and hose it, then find out that it isn't under warranty any longer. Next they call BAR and ARB, and take up their time. Each call from the public has to be logged. So, all that time gets used up of tax payers money. So the state added a warranty provision to the CARB II that makes the warranty last long enough that people will not have that problem. The state thought everyone else would adopt that consumer protection but most states have not. Heck, in some parts of the country a river of coal ash can wash away your house and destroy your farm, and that state's epa won't hold the coal ash owner responsible. Most people just want to breathe clean air and have clean water. They want their children to live long lives and not get some rare cancer at age 6 because some business 10 mile upstream used to plate with chromium.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons Reply with quote

Wasted youth wrote:
I didn't know this two-way style was NLA. I thought I looked at Emico about a year and a half ago and they were still available, but time marches on I guess.

The Emico is a 3-way cat. Never was a 2-way. CARB doesn't insist that the cat chemistry match the original specification, so all that are available now are 3-way cats. The cat manufacturers would throw a fit if they were forced to build 2-way cats for the small number of vehicles from the late '70s and early '80s that are still on the road.

Quote:
I thought the new development would support first and second year Vanagons. They have O2 sensors and this style CAT, and will need that port.

The new Magnaflow development driven by Steve supports all aircooled Federal Vanagons (1980 - 1982.5) as well as Federal buses from 1975 - 1979.
Federal Vanagons didn't come with O2 sensors or 3-way cats either. The California-spec Vanagons, as well as the '79 Cali-spec bus, did have O2 sensors and 3-way cats. The 3-way catalytic converter and the narrow-band oxygen sensor are complementary technologies.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
Technically a bus shows as a car at DMV (or used to) but all were IMPORTED by VW as trucks, and that is why it shows as a TRUCK with ARB standards..


I thought they were sold as station wagons to circumvent the "chicken tax".

but, it's CA so who the hell knows...
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
SGKent wrote:
Technically a bus shows as a car at DMV (or used to) but all were IMPORTED by VW as trucks, and that is why it shows as a TRUCK with ARB standards..


I thought they were sold as station wagons to circumvent the "chicken tax".

but, it's CA so who the hell knows...


Yes, I thought so too. But somewhere something must have changed. I wonder if it is connected to Datsun bringing in trucks? How did they get around it?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons Reply with quote

Probably they were classified as trucks for emissions & collision, yet considered passenger vehicles for importation because that was their primary purpose. Same way a Suburban/Excursion/Durango is a truck in some ways but a passenger car in others...
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons Reply with quote

Wasted youth wrote:

Yes, I thought so too. But somewhere something must have changed. I wonder if it is connected to Datsun bringing in trucks? How did they get around it?


by putting the beds on in port making them "assembled in usa"

oddly enough, ford is making the transit with seats and pulling them at port to sell them as a work van.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/feds-watching-fords-run-around-on-chicken-tax-riles-customs-officials/

more "do as I say, not as I do" bullshit....
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my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
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most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons Reply with quote

somewhere, I can't recall where but about 6 months ago researching this I found a copy of the original EPA certifications. They were made by VWOG and imported into the USA as trucks. My title reads Station Wagon on it but in the fine print it says Truck.

Examples:

this is a 1977 gas mileage est from EPA. see page 29
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/pdfs/1977_feg.pdf

California Air Resources Board certification VW Kombi etc as a truck Jan 1976
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/1976/volkswagen_ldt_a0070013_2d0_ta0.pdf
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons Reply with quote

Passenger vehicles ( non pickup,type VW Busses) weren't hit with the chicken tax. Ford imports Transits with passenger seats, rips them out, and then sells them as utility vehicles to avoid the poultry penalty.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons Reply with quote

Stories like this box me in while I try to teach my kids to always be honest and never cheat. Laughing
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