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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9620
Location: Western WA
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 Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| vanagonjr wrote: |
| I guess that's my point. Would we, or should we, see these same failures on heavy 2WD van, or is this a Syncro Transmission specific problem? |
One big difference is the Syncro has a granny gear, this can put much higher loads on R&P, pinion and carrier bearings. And at the forward end the low gear case might increase loads on the mainshaft bearing.
I cant imagine much difference on the other components. I've only seen inside a syncro tranny once, and never inside a 2WD tranny, so don't take my word. I'm just offering these talking points here for someone who actually KNOWS.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| photogdave wrote: |
| gears wrote: |
I'm contemplating trying out a newly available VERY inexpensive replacement 4.86 Syncro R&P in a stock Syncro van. .. |
This will be very interesting to many of us! I'm sure this will warrant its own thread.
Looking forward to learning more. 8) |
I've just learned (via another phone call) what I needed to know. These are now off the table as an option. The quality just isn't high enough. However another call earlier today (from the guy who purchased my gear business in 2009) revealed that my old gear cutter may be manufacturing R&Ps by the middle of next year.
Unfortunatley, you will not get 100K from the popular aftermarket R&P. These are heat-treated at a small nearby facility, rather than the world-class heat treater who's a bit further away and a bit more expensive .. so we consumers get an R&P (for around 1,400) that's worn out in 30K.
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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Farfrumwork
Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2008
Posts: 692
Location: Mile High
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| gears wrote: |
I've just learned (via another phone call) what I needed to know. These are now off the table as an option. The quality just isn't high enough. However another call earlier today (from the guy who purchased my gear business in 2009) revealed that my old gear cutter may be manufacturing R&Ps by the middle of next year. |
Your business in Boulder? (Matt M.?) interesting!
| gears wrote: |
| Unfortunately, you will not get 100K from the popular aftermarket R&P. These are heat-treated at a small nearby facility, rather than the world-class heat treater who's a bit further away and a bit more expensive .. so we consumers get an R&P (for around 1,400) that's worn out in 30K. |
^^ that is an unfortunate bit of insight - booooo!  Might be better to 'gamble' with the used OEM set... 
I wonder if there is any way to get the aftermarket R&P in an un-treated state and shop it to a better outfitted heat treat facility?
_________________
sold  -> '85 Wolfsburg Syncro / 'Built' DOHC EJ25 (a great machine!)
'07 Legacy spec.B, road tuned stgII
'17 4x4 Sprinter, stone grey, SMB pop-top, on 33"s
"Blood stains, speed kills - Fast cars, cheap thrills - Rich girls, fine wine - I've lost my sense, I've lost control, I've lost my mind" |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5392
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| gears wrote: |
| photogdave wrote: |
| gears wrote: |
I'm contemplating trying out a newly available VERY inexpensive replacement 4.86 Syncro R&P in a stock Syncro van. .. |
This will be very interesting to many of us! I'm sure this will warrant its own thread.
Looking forward to learning more.  |
I've just learned (via another phone call) what I needed to know. These are now off the table as an option. The quality just isn't high enough. However another call earlier today (from the guy who purchased my gear business in 2009) revealed that my old gear cutter may be manufacturing R&Ps by the middle of next year.
Unfortunatley, you will not get 100K from the popular aftermarket R&P. These are heat-treated at a small nearby facility, rather than the world-class heat treater who's a bit further away and a bit more expensive .. so we consumers get an R&P (for around 1,400) that's worn out in 30K. |
Hmmm, is it safe to assume that the new 5:43 R&Ps (and other ratios) are in the same boat, or do we know?
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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syncrodoka
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12008
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
| Hmmm, is it safe to assume that the new 5:43 R&Ps (and other ratios) are in the same boat, or do we know? |
I hope not, I am running the same ratio.  |
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Syncro Jael
Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2013
Posts: 2204
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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That is great news on a $1400 R&P. Only another 30k miles?
I plan to scope the R&P each time I drop the gear oil. Hopefully I can catch anything that is going awry early.
Please Mendeola, make us a strong transaxle for our Syncro, please... 
http://www.transworks.biz/mendeola.html
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat) |
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ScottShelley
Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2012
Posts: 596
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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Well, that sucks! Gamble on the original or go for the 30,000 new unit from W.... Disappointing
| gears wrote: |
| photogdave wrote: |
| gears wrote: |
I'm contemplating trying out a newly available VERY inexpensive replacement 4.86 Syncro R&P in a stock Syncro van. .. |
This will be very interesting to many of us! I'm sure this will warrant its own thread.
Looking forward to learning more. |
I've just learned (via another phone call) what I needed to know. These are now off the table as an option. The quality just isn't high enough. However another call earlier today (from the guy who purchased my gear business in 2009) revealed that my old gear cutter may be manufacturing R&Ps by the middle of next year.
Unfortunatley, you will not get 100K from the popular aftermarket R&P. These are heat-treated at a small nearby facility, rather than the world-class heat treater who's a bit further away and a bit more expensive .. so we consumers get an R&P (for around 1,400) that's worn out in 30K. |
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xoo00oox
Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2010
Posts: 2672
Location: East Nassau, NY
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Syncro Jael wrote: |
That is great news on a $1400 R&P. Only another 30k miles?
I plan to scope the R&P each time I drop the gear oil. Hopefully I can catch anything that is going awry early.
Please Mendeola, make us a strong transaxle for our Syncro, please...
http://www.transworks.biz/mendeola.html |
CRIPES! It is threads like this that this that discourages me from wanting to drive my Syncro Westy, the one Syncro I have with the stock Syncro transmission. It adds a bit of stress just waiting for the gear box to start making noise or get hard to shift, then what the Hell are you supposed to do? Spend a small fortune for a rebuild and countdown the miles until you get to do it again? My Syncro with the Audi transmission on the other hand it fun, I can beat the Hell out of it off road and hit the highway at 75mph for hours without even thinking about what the transmission temps are up to. If it decides to go bad, a good used one can be had for a couple hundred bucks.
Does anyone else feel it takes the enjoyment out of driving their Syncro or am I the only one who can't be shelling out $6k+ for a transmission? |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9620
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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Do we KNOW that the aftermarket R&Ps are 30k units?
It certainly makes sense that the transmission should be big enough for the engine. The Subaru trans project would be a good one too.
How much are the parts alone, in a $6000 Syncro gearbox rebuild? Does anybody have a parts invoice they could publish?
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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syncrodoka
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12008
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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My stock tranny syncros are fine driving 75MPH for hours on end for years now but if this tranny with new R&P and AL case/gear carrier and upgrades craps out I will be a unhappy camper.
I wouldn't accept a replacement option that doesn't have a G gear or lower and a locker if Weddle made something though.
Last edited by syncrodoka on Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:50 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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ScottShelley
Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2012
Posts: 596
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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It disappoints me on so many levels. First, why sell a new R and P that will only last 30,000 miles? Why isn't there more disclosure from the rebuilders on the issues with used R and Ps. A lot of very confusing choices...
| xoo00oox wrote: |
| Syncro Jael wrote: |
That is great news on a $1400 R&P. Only another 30k miles?
I plan to scope the R&P each time I drop the gear oil. Hopefully I can catch anything that is going awry early.
Please Mendeola, make us a strong transaxle for our Syncro, please...
http://www.transworks.biz/mendeola.html |
CRIPES! It is threads like this that this that discourages me from wanting to drive my Syncro Westy, the one Syncro I have with the stock Syncro transmission. It adds a bit of stress just waiting for the gear box to start making noise or get hard to shift, then what the Hell are you supposed to do? Spend a small fortune for a rebuild and countdown the miles until you get to do it again? My Syncro with the Audi transmission on the other hand it fun, I can beat the Hell out of it off road and hit the highway at 75mph for hours without even thinking about what the transmission temps are up to. If it decides to go bad, a good used one can be had for a couple hundred bucks.
Does anyone else feel it takes the enjoyment out of driving their Syncro or am I the only one who can't be shelling out $6k+ for a transmission? |
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| xoo00oox wrote: |
| Syncro Jael wrote: |
That is great news on a $1400 R&P. Only another 30k miles?
I plan to scope the R&P each time I drop the gear oil. Hopefully I can catch anything that is going awry early.
Please Mendeola, make us a strong transaxle for our Syncro, please...
http://www.transworks.biz/mendeola.html |
CRIPES! It is threads like this that this that discourages me from wanting to drive my Syncro Westy, the one Syncro I have with the stock Syncro transmission. It adds a bit of stress just waiting for the gear box to start making noise or get hard to shift, then what the Hell are you supposed to do? Spend a small fortune for a rebuild and countdown the miles until you get to do it again? My Syncro with the Audi transmission on the other hand it fun, I can beat the Hell out of it off road and hit the highway at 75mph for hours without even thinking about what the transmission temps are up to. If it decides to go bad, a good used one can be had for a couple hundred bucks.
Does anyone else feel it takes the enjoyment out of driving their Syncro or am I the only one who can't be shelling out $6k+ for a transmission? |
Dude, I'm in the process of (temporarily) converting a Syncro to 2WD, 'cause the owner can't stomach the $4k+ needed to make his trans w/dead R&P function. If you had a kit ready to convert a Quattro drivetrain with a reversed 1.8t/TDI, I'm about 92% sure he'd pull the trigger on that option. I'm also sure dozens of others would be falling all over themselves to give you their monies. Please help them to give you monies. Think of the children.
_________________
Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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vanagonjr
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2010
Posts: 3431
Location: Dartmouth, Mass.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| vanagonjr wrote: |
| I guess that's my point. Would we, or should we, see these same failures on heavy 2WD van, or is this a Syncro Transmission specific problem? |
One big difference is the Syncro has a granny gear, this can put much higher loads on R&P, pinion and carrier bearings. And at the forward end the low gear case might increase loads on the mainshaft bearing.
|
Well, I do have a Syncro tranny set aside for my 2WD, so would I be in the same boat? Actually I would't be, because I doubt that I will be in granny gear often, but spinning the rear wheels more often is certainly a possibility.
| gears wrote: |
| [. so we consumers get an R&P (for around 1,400) that's worn out in 30K. |
"That sucks  " My out loud comment when I read this.
| Farfrumwork wrote: |
I wonder if there is any way to get the aftermarket R&P in an un-treated state and shop it to a better outfitted heat treat facility? |
Not an entirely crazy idea, but the quality of the steel has an effect of the possible quality you can get out of the finished product, but I certainly know of places that could do a good job.
| Syncro Jael wrote: |
That is great news on a $1400 R&P. Only another 30k miles?
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Not trolling here, but you can buy a competent Toyota 4WD for what you will have into that drivetrain. I know that van is a better camper without question-that why we own them. I know of at least 3 Syncro owners who moved to the Toyota platform because they wanted to venture to remote places, like Mexico and South America, that I have conversed with on other forums.
One had built his up, at professional shops, to do such. After tranny problems on a trip, he moved into a Toyota Tundra and 4WheelCamper. If he were to ever see this thread, he certainly would be glad he moved on, even though the truck camper is less convenient.
_________________
John - 86 Wolfsburg Westfalia "Weekender"
Flint reversed 1.8T W/Passat 5-Speed
LiMBO (late model bus club) www.limbobus.org
LiMBO is on Facebook too! https://www.facebook.com/groups/
FAQ thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=525798 |
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Syncro Jael
Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2013
Posts: 2204
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Since my old gear box is still here in the shop. I went out and took a video of the backlash. I don't have the tools to measure it.
Link
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat) |
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AKWesty
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2014
Posts: 680
Location: Haines, Alaska
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
If you had a kit ready to convert a Quattro drivetrain with a reversed 1.8t/TDI, I'm about 92% sure he'd pull the trigger on that option. I'm also sure dozens of others would be falling all over themselves to give you their monies. Please help them to give you monies. Think of the children. |
If you were to put a poll thread together to determine the demand for the syncro quattro conversion kit, I bet you would find many like me (watching this thread) willing to put some money down. I have looked at buying a donor syncro to swap but realize that the expense is not the initial conversion....it is keeping the drivetrain running. I just can't afford to maintain the system. ie...this thread.
_________________
84' Westy 2wd
EJ22 - 4spd - Peloquin TBD
GW +1.5 Springs
215/70-16's
www.CatchTheKraken.com
"Never go to Alaska as a young man because you'll never be satisfied with any other place as long as you live." -John Muir |
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hans j
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2006
Posts: 2715
Location: Salt Lake City UT
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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I'd consider a quattro conversion with the 01E 6 speed with low range. Check out page 39 http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_241.pdf. Found in the ROW allroads. I like and use my low range and locker too much. But I would consider a quattro conversion in a street car.
_________________
1986 Canadian Syncro Westy TDI - 1989 Syncro Single Cab - 2001 Audi S4 - 1981 VW Caddy ABA - 1980 VW Caddy EV - 1973 VW T-181 |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9620
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:15 am Post subject: |
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Same here Hans, I need the creeper gear, to go slow and careful off-road. I'd like a genuine 5-speed gear spacing though, but would not trade away my granny for it.
| vanagonjr wrote: |
| Sodo wrote: |
| vanagonjr wrote: |
| Would we, or should we, see these same failures on heavy 2WD van, or is this a Syncro Transmission specific problem? |
One big difference is the Syncro has a granny gear, this can put much higher loads on R&P, pinion and carrier bearings. And at the forward end the low gear case might increase loads on the mainshaft bearing.
|
Well, I do have a Syncro tranny set aside for my 2WD, so would I be in the same boat? Actually I would't be, because I doubt that I will be in granny gear often, but spinning the rear wheels more often is certainly a possibility. |
If you just use the granny for the low-speed crawling (and seldom) you have the right answer.
It's reasonable that an increase in Syncro tranny problems are because of
---- 1) increasing miles
---- 2) big engines
and I can't be the only one who had….
---- 3) poor rebuilds showing early failure
Is Europe having the same problem with their Syncro trannies? What about their R&Ps, where do europeans get new R&Ps? I'm quite interested to hear about the internal health of Scott's two (healthy?) trannies, I hope he goes over them carefully, taking notes !
Not ready to throw this tranny under the bus! I think it should be analyzed with a fine-tooth comb. And maybe limit the HP you put thru it to about 130.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:13 am Post subject: |
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This site seems to attract lots of rock crawler types, but I'm guessing that the vast majority of Syncro owners really just want a highly capable AWD van for inclement weather and light duty off-road activities. Flint has vids showing that his Quattro drive van is quite capable of off-roading without lockers or granny gear.
_________________
Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| This site seems to attract lots of rock crawler types, but I'm guessing that the vast majority of Syncro owners really just want a highly capable AWD van for inclement weather and light duty off-road activities. Flint has vids showing that his Quattro drive van is quite capable of off-roading without lockers or granny gear. |
Most of the posters who make negative remarks about the Quattro Syncro have NO clue.
(Not the above quote)
They have not watched to progression live and been able to drive in each of the pre Quattro vans.
Andrew's van is very capable, more than a stock 14" USDM Syncro in my opinion.
It could easily tow, be loaded down and gets better MPGs than a WBX, plus traction control and ABS capabilities.
95%-98% of Syncro owners could benefit from his conversion.
The other percentage better save up plenty of thousands for trans rebuilds on a regular basis.
Extreme offroading in a Vanagon defines $yncro |
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Signalocity
Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2012
Posts: 573
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:49 am Post subject: |
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I think many Syncro owners would be hesitant to give up the low gear and the locker, whether they have a true need for it or not, because it is a defining point on what makes a Syncro unique. In addition to having a decoupler, throwing the 2WD variable into the mix. Having a camper van, of all things, with these as options is what really sets these vehicles apart, regardless of how capable/comparable it is compared to other AWD offerings.
2WD
2WD + GRANNY
2WD + GRANNY + LOCKED REAR
4WD (ON THE FLY)
4WD + GRANNY
4WD + GRANNY + LOCKED REAR
4WD + GRANNY + LOCKED REAR + LOCKED FRONT
... is a strong selling point lol.
Last edited by Signalocity on Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:04 am; edited 4 times in total |
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