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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9609
Location: Western WA
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 Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
Extreme offroading in a Vanagon defines $yncro  |
There are a very few doing extreme off-roading. I'll bet $yncro has been defined by too much HP coupled with poor rebuilds. And perhaps good rebuilds using parts that aree run out but not obvious (yet).
The price is driven up by some customers who wants be seen spending money. Similar to Louis Vitton handbags. Others see the numbers and just go numb to relieve the pain. I don't believe this $6500, $8500 rebuild thing (yet), and it's causing further inflation.
| Signalocity wrote: |
| I think many Syncro owners would be hesitant to give up the low gear and the locker, whether they have a true need for it or not, because it is a defining point on what makes a Syncro unique. In addition to having a decoupler , throwing the 2WD variable into the mix. Having a camper van, of all things, with these as options is what really sets these vehicles apart. Regardless of how capable/comparable it is compared to other AWD offerings. |
^^^ THAT too. The off-road camper theme, ability to get away, far away. It's perhaps more important in the western US because you can. My rock-crawling consists of climbing up onto a stack of rocks to level my van at a cool campsite.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| insyncro wrote: |
| Extreme offroading in a Vanagon defines $yncro |
There are a very few doing extreme off-roading. I'll bet $yncro has been defined by too much HP coupled with poor rebuilds. The price is driven up by some customers who wants be seen spending money. Similar to Louis Vitton handbags. I think others see the numbers and just go numb to relieve the pain. I don't believe this $6500, $8500 rebuild thing (yet). |
You will believe it once you realize what parts cost, if you can get them.
Many of us in the know have been saying this for years.
The days of maintenance costs being afforded by average Volks has come and gone.
Many of the crucial Syncro transmission parts are NLA and what is available will be short lived.
Just as this and other threads are showing.
I snapped up as many of the brand new transmissions and parts that were available in the last two years...for my personal vans, as I own a few.
Rebuilding for me is a last resort.
I have three Syncro locker transmissions out and about, sold to very cool van owners who needed one ASAP, all were from later vans, tin top vans.....and most importantly, still going strong.
If you plan to rebuild and lack crucial new parts, save your money.
We will see transmissions come available now as a few will not want to deal with the amount of dollars needed to save what they have.
Buying an untested transmission, pictured on a garage floor or in a rental locker is a total crap shot and could cost you BIG money in the end
Hard to beat a stock, unmolested and well maintained Syncro these days.
The problem is, not many are left and most with them ain't sellin'  |
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davevickery
Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2005
Posts: 2887
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:23 am Post subject: |
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x2 on everything Sodo said here. I don't think it can be understated. If you spend $6K on a rebuild that last only 30K miles, it was a poor rebuild. Perhaps you needed new additional parts which a rebuilder should know, or perhaps they missed something else. In any case, that kind of service doesn't get my business twice and I would take my chances elsewhere.
Each case is just one anecdote and without lots of them it doesn't mean much. Here, we just hear the problems not all the people just driving and enjoying their syncros. Insyncro keeps putting out his biased version of reality and posts it over and over again trying to sell it. I'm not buying.
FWIW, I have a rebuilt German Transaxle done around 2001 still going strong, miles unknown but at least 60K and probably more since everyone underestimates that when they sell them to you.
| Sodo wrote: |
| insyncro wrote: |
| Extreme offroading in a Vanagon defines $yncro |
There are a very few doing extreme off-roading. I'll bet $yncro has been defined by too much HP coupled with poor rebuilds. And perhaps good rebuilds using parts that aree run out but not obvious (yet).
The price is driven up by some customers who wants be seen spending money. Similar to Louis Vitton handbags. Others see the numbers and just go numb to relieve the pain. I don't believe this $6500, $8500 rebuild thing (yet), and it's causing further inflation.
| Signalocity wrote: |
| I think many Syncro owners would be hesitant to give up the low gear and the locker, whether they have a true need for it or not, because it is a defining point on what makes a Syncro unique. In addition to having a decoupler , throwing the 2WD variable into the mix. Having a camper van, of all things, with these as options is what really sets these vehicles apart. Regardless of how capable/comparable it is compared to other AWD offerings. |
^^^ THAT too. The off-road camper theme, ability to get away, far away. It's perhaps more important in the western US because you can. My rock-crawling consists of climbing up onto a stack of rocks to level my van at a cool campsite. |
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photogdave
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Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 3052
Location: Vancouver Island, B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:35 am Post subject: |
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There is certainly a wide variety of Syncro usage.
When I first got mine I was in the AWD for snowy roads and bad weather camp. When I had my trans rebuilt Daryl asked about my usage and we decided to keep it all stock and run standard gear oil.
My usage has since evolved and I need low gear and rear locker far more than AWD. If the VC failed (open) I probably wouldn't really miss it that much.
If I could have seen into the future I would have had my trans built up with all the goodies such as oiling plates, taps for cooler, gauges etc.
_________________
89 Syncro GL Westfalia 2.1 WBX/WBXaustSS
My Westy Movies:
photogdave On Vimeo
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Last edited by photogdave on Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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hans j
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Joined: May 06, 2006
Posts: 2715
Location: Salt Lake City UT
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:04 am Post subject: |
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I've never driven a quattro vanagon, but in my B5S4 (ABS, EDL, and ESP equipped), when I lift a wheel I have to rely on my momentum to get through a gutter. Car is amazing when all wheels touch the ground, but isn't for me when off road. Even in my syncro I try to use my locker as little as possible, but sometimes it's very necessary!
Ron I hope you and Matt get it figured out!
_________________
1986 Canadian Syncro Westy TDI - 1989 Syncro Single Cab - 2001 Audi S4 - 1981 VW Caddy ABA - 1980 VW Caddy EV - 1973 VW T-181 |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| hans j wrote: |
I've never driven a quattro vanagon, but in my B5S4 (ABS, EDL, and ESP equipped), when I lift a wheel I have to rely on my momentum to get through a gutter. Car is amazing when all wheels touch the ground, but isn't for me when off road. Even in my syncro I try to use my locker as little as possible, but sometimes it's very necessary!
Ron I hope you and Matt get it figured out! |
We will see many $yncro vans cherished with limited duty because of threads like this and parts availability....
...and a few Quattro Syncro vans run amazing hard driveline wise, with all Syncro suspension parts able to be upgraded.
The halfshafts could be beefed up along with flanges, same as with the stock locker, but why bother I ask, you can buy three complete spare transmissions for the cost of one brand new $yncro R&P
Flint's work redefines the driving of the vehicle, which in turn changes the vehicle.
Some are on board, some not.
Honestly, his provides how we all want to drive a Syncro, but many are now scared too |
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Syncro Jael
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Joined: December 19, 2013
Posts: 2204
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| Sodo wrote: |
Do we KNOW that the aftermarket R&Ps are 30k units?
It certainly makes sense that the transmission should be big enough for the engine. The Subaru trans project would be a good one too.
How much are the parts alone, in a $6000 Syncro gearbox rebuild? Does anybody have a parts invoice they could publish? |
Here is the invoice for the gear box just failed at 32k miles and 22 months.
Rebuild: $1,795.00
Locker Retro: $1050.00
Parts Alum Case: $700.00
Parts Alum Gear Carrier Housing: $350.00
Parts Stock Gearing $0.00
Parts Used 4.86 Ring & Pinion: $0.00 
Parts Oiling Plates & MSR Plate: $300.00
Parts SS Locker Rod: $125.00
Parts VAC Servo: $65.00
Decoupler Kit: $895.00
Shipping: $150.00
Total: $5430.00
Here is the invoice for the gear box that is in my Syncro now:
Rebuild: $1795.00
Locker Retro: $1050.00
New M/S: $1000.00
Alum GC Housing: $250.00
Alum Main Case: $550.00
Alum Bellhousing: $350.00
Stock Gearing: $0.00
Used 4.86 Ring & Pinion $0.00
SS Locker Rod: $125.00
MSR Plate: $150.00
Oil Plates: $150.00
Tap for Oil Sensor: $ N/C
Decoupler Kit: $895.00
Shipping: $150.00
Total: $6465.00
And here is my (preliminary quote) to rebuild the failed gear box, if all the other parts are still good:
Rebuild cost : $1995.00
New Ring and Pinion: $1400.00
New M/S: $1000.00
Tapped hole for oil temp sending unit: $N/C
Tapped holes and plugs for oil cooling system: $200 for both
Shipping: $150
Total: $4745.00
Each of these gear boxes cost more than my son paid for his 87' Syncro Tin top.  My Syncro was a non locker, and my sons had a locker but the PO replaced it with a rebuilt Non-Locker. So we incurred additional costs upgrading to Locker trannies.
I have the disease... 
Edit: Hans, yes I hope to get all this figured out with Matt and feel comfortable driving the Syncro again. I too am now thinking about how many miles I put on the van each weekend. My wife is starting to give me that "look" with all this money going back into the van. 
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat) |
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?Waldo?
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Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| I'm curious why the mainshaft needs to be replaced. |
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flomulgator
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Joined: March 07, 2013
Posts: 950
Location: Leavenworth, WA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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And I'm curious about all this tapping of holes.
You only need three holes for an oil cooler and a temp sender, and the transmission already has two holes in it.
Where will you draw oil from?
Where will you inject oil to?
Where will you measure temperature?
Syncro Jael, I can commiserate on the marital transmission bill explanation. More than the money these transmissions need to hold up to increase the time between those uncomfortable conversations!
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She's built like a steakhouse, but she handles like a bistro! |
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Syncro Jael
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Joined: December 19, 2013
Posts: 2204
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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I am getting the quote with what I hope is my worst case scenario of the main shaft also needing replacement.
I am having the cooling holes tapped so I can keep the stock drain and filler plugs.
EDIT: This is a great thread for reference.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5...mp;start=0
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat) |
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Christopher Schimke
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Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5390
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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While I think Andrew's Quattro Syncro is incredibly cool and I would love to build one some day, put me in the camp of Syncro owners who would find it really difficult to give up the low gear and locker with my current Syncro. There have been MANY situations where the lack of those two items would have prevented me from traveling any further down some specific trails. Granted, some of these were somewhat extreme (Fins N Things, Crankshaft Hill and few other specific locations come to mind), but they are what I like to do and where I like to go with my current Syncro. And yes, that probably puts me in the minority.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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^^ +1
The versatility of my Syncro is priceless. We've explored areas that I wouldn't even attempt without G gear. That said, if I ever get another 4 car garage, I'd love a 2nd mainland Syncro with one of Andrew's set-ups.
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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ScottShelley
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Joined: October 15, 2012
Posts: 596
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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The 30,000 mile question...
If you were going to have somebody rebuild an engine for you would it be okay if it only lasted 30,000 miles? I know, from extended conversations with Ron while at Syncrofest, that he does not do extreme off roading or abuse his Syncro. In fact he is the poster child for up keep and maintenance. He may carry a lot of stuff but there has been a history of people carrying stuff in a Westy Syncro. Why is it that at the original trans will last upwards of 150,000 miles with the 3-4 slider usually being what brings it to its knees, but, the rebuilds are falling like flies? I personally want whomever is doing the work for me to tell me everything that needs to be replaced. I want nothing marginal going, or staying, in the box. I want to be presented with information and allowed to make a decision. I also want to know what my risk are using a used R and P versus a new one. What is a reasonable expectation for the life of a Rebuilt Transmission? I don't think 30,000 miles is reasonable.
| davevickery wrote: |
x2 on everything Sodo said here. I don't think it can be understated. If you spend $6K on a rebuild that last only 30K miles, it was a poor rebuild. Perhaps you needed new additional parts which a rebuilder should know, or perhaps they missed something else. In any case, that kind of service doesn't get my business twice and I would take my chances elsewhere.
Each case is just one anecdote and without lots of them it doesn't mean much. Here, we just hear the problems not all the people just driving and enjoying their syncros. Insyncro keeps putting out his biased version of reality and posts it over and over again trying to sell it. I'm not buying.
FWIW, I have a rebuilt German Transaxle done around 2001 still going strong, miles unknown but at least 60K and probably more since everyone underestimates that when they sell them to you.
| Sodo wrote: |
| insyncro wrote: |
| Extreme offroading in a Vanagon defines $yncro |
There are a very few doing extreme off-roading. I'll bet $yncro has been defined by too much HP coupled with poor rebuilds. And perhaps good rebuilds using parts that aree run out but not obvious (yet).
The price is driven up by some customers who wants be seen spending money. Similar to Louis Vitton handbags. Others see the numbers and just go numb to relieve the pain. I don't believe this $6500, $8500 rebuild thing (yet), and it's causing further inflation.
| Signalocity wrote: |
| I think many Syncro owners would be hesitant to give up the low gear and the locker, whether they have a true need for it or not, because it is a defining point on what makes a Syncro unique. In addition to having a decoupler , throwing the 2WD variable into the mix. Having a camper van, of all things, with these as options is what really sets these vehicles apart. Regardless of how capable/comparable it is compared to other AWD offerings. |
^^^ THAT too. The off-road camper theme, ability to get away, far away. It's perhaps more important in the western US because you can. My rock-crawling consists of climbing up onto a stack of rocks to level my van at a cool campsite. |
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Howesight
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2008
Posts: 3274
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Pablo:
I am still amazed that Andrew Flint's reverse-direction Audi transaxle works so well. I had thought that the gearbox would have been designed to support design torque limits only running in the designed rotation. More particularly, I would have expected the ring and pinion to be trashed by high-power use in reverse rotation.
My own reverse-rotation teenager experiment was over 30 years ago with an LT-1 powered V8 mid-engine Beetle with a reverse-rotation Saginaw Corvair transaxle. It led a very short life . . .
I know that the Audi 01E transaxle in my URS4 easily swallows 400HP, but that is in the designed rotation. How on earth does Andrew's gearbox withstand this reverse rotation?
_________________
'86 Syncro Westy SVX |
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Sodo
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Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9609
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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What R&P costs $1400, and what Mainshaft is $1000? Are these OEM or Weddle? On the Weddle website the R&P is $1169 & mainshaft is $585.
30,000 miles is not "rebuilt". Bentley recommends for the manual transmission: "30,000 miles, check gear oil, add if necessary"
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Howesight wrote: |
Hi Pablo:
I am still amazed that Andrew Flint's reverse-direction Audi transaxle works so well. I had thought that the gearbox would have been designed to support design torque limits only running in the designed rotation. More particularly, I would have expected the ring and pinion to be trashed by high-power use in reverse rotation.
My own reverse-rotation teenager experiment was over 30 years ago with an LT-1 powered V8 mid-engine Beetle with a reverse-rotation Saginaw Corvair transaxle. It led a very short life . . .
I know that the Audi 01E transaxle in my URS4 easily swallows 400HP, but that is in the designed rotation. How on earth does Andrew's gearbox withstand this reverse rotation? |
Karma perhaps .. reward for an idea ventured ? Humor aside, I'd have to study the internals to see where the beef is.
Keep in mind that the forces during reverse rotation are pretty much the same as those during deceleration .. just greater, and obviously longer duration. There are some transaxles that I just wouldn't trust being reversed without internal strengthening.
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| gears wrote: |
^^ +1
The versatility of my Syncro is priceless. We've explored areas that I wouldn't even attempt without G gear. That said, if I ever get another 4 car garage, I'd love a 2nd mainland Syncro with one of Andrew's set-ups. |
This is where I am at
No shortages of Syncros or parts for me, yet still, I plan to build a Quattro Syncro with Andrew's help....for everyday driving and road trips. |
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Syncro Jael
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Joined: December 19, 2013
Posts: 2204
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Let me "WHINE" |
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Here is the first gear oil change on the transaxle.
This is at 71,320 on the odometer and 770 miles on the breakin gear oil.
Swarf Magnet:
And here is a look at the ring and pinion:
Link
Link
If you see anything that looks scary, , let me know.
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat) |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:10 pm Post subject: Re: Let me "WHINE" |
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The only constructive criticism I can give thus far would be that Swepco isnt needed as a breakin fluid.
I swap it in after 500-1000 miles.
This has worked beautifully on countless boxes for me.
You havent done wrong by using it from day one, but it isnt "needed" from day one.
Again, my opinions on the subject are from maintaining quite a few vans and 911s. |
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Syncro Jael
Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2013
Posts: 2204
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: Let me "WHINE" |
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Well the gearbox is apart and all the internals have been inspected. The rebuild has lasted a little over 30k miles.
Everything looked great except for the ring & pinion. All the bearings, seals, gears, were in beautiful condition. Pinion bearing was tight and all the aluminum cases showed no issues. Now to purchase a new ring & pinion and have it rebuilt. Saving the money and not replacing the used R&P cost me much more in the long run. No warranty for used parts. 
Another lesson learned, if you are taking the tranny out for a rebuild, and want longevity, then don't scrimp to save some money. Plan on replacing parts that have unknown mileage on them. It is difficult to keep adding thousands of dollars to the inside of your box. You can pay now, or pay more later. 
A couple of things that I have learned, and what I will do in the future:
1. Scope the ring and pinion to see the pattern and if it was set up correctly for your application. The rebuilder has done this and the pattern will still be visible BEFORE you put gear oil in it.
2. Change the break-in gear oil to flush any contaminates within the first 100 miles - then again at 800 miles, then use a gear oil that has been proven for your application with "real world" testing.
3. Cool and filter the transaxle gear oil for added protection.
Here is a couple clips of the pinion gear on both the acceleration and deceleration sides.
DRIVE SIDE
Link
COAST SIDE
Link
Those with a trained eye can tell how mine was set up from these clips.
And here is a clip on how to read the gear pattern:
Link
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat) |
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