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28 PICT 1 differences
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dmeffert
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:56 am    Post subject: 28 PICT 1 differences Reply with quote

Hello all. I have a carb question. I am getting my 61 back together. It has a 1200 that is unmodified. The car came with a 28 PICT 1 carb that I cleaned and put in a rebuild kit. On startup it ran great for a few seconds then the fuel inlet pipe popped off and it sprayed gas all over. I have a second 28 PICT 1 that I had for parts and when I cleaned up the top from it to install on the first carb, I noticed that it has a brass pipe sticking out into the throttle opening over the choke plate that the carb on the car dosen't have. I also noticed that the accelerator pump outlet in the carb body that the top came from has a different configuration and runs straight across the venturi rather than being shaped like a bent faucet like the one in that I have in the car.
What is the difference between these carbs and should I use the body and top that came together.
Anyone have a rec for where I can send out a carb to have the threaded insert installed on the fuel inlet?
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Power fuel jet? second advance port?

Calling glutamodo!

In the meantime, here's his analysis:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=185095
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dmeffert
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you look at both parts of the carb, you can trace the passages back to the fuel bowl.
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bluebus86
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your lucky the car did not catch fire. My car did catch fire when the fuel pipe fell out, likely ignition source was the dizzy.

Please read the link at bottom of my post regarding engine fires and the simple safety wire fix. It is mandatory to take proactive actin to prevent reoccurrence of this failure. also note that fuel pumps can also suffer form this same failure.

take no more chances, read the link and perform the fix on both carb and pump (some pumps have a different design and are immune form this failure)

You dodged a bullet this time in that your car did not catch fire.

I suggest you fix the pipe on your original carb. it is not difficult. if you use a replacement carb you also need perform the fix as sometimes the pipe feels tight but with different expansion ratios between the carb body and the pipe and with vibration and what not the pipe can suddenly fail. a pull test is not enough, you at least should safety wire it even if you think it is tight enough. you could also thread the pipe, but that is a bit more work. again do not forget the fuel pump.

good luck
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dmeffert
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's my intent to send the top of the carb out to have a threaded inlet installed and I will safety wire the other top until I get the threaded one back.
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bluebus86
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmeffert wrote:
It's my intent to send the top of the carb out to have a threaded inlet installed and I will safety wire the other top until I get the threaded one back.


Don't forget the pump inlet and outlet pipes. some styles have a pressed-in pipe just like the carb. I had one pump pipe fail on me also!
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Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022
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vwnut1
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would also NOT recommend installing German braided fuel line due to the ethanol in our gasoline. Ethanol and Vintage cars/small gas motors (pressure washer engines, etc.) not mix well. The ethanol eats up seals, gaskets and is very corrosive. I purchased some of this 1/4" Gates Barricade fuel hose for my VW project to avoid any issues. Check out this article regarding ethanol in our gasoline that's aimed at VW owners;

http://www.vwaircooledworks.co.uk/Fuel-Hose-Safety-Campaign.html

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


-Compatible with ethanol, methanol, and all gasoline blends of gasoline and alcohol.
-Achieves five times less fuel vapor permeation than conventional hoses
-Rated for use to 50 PSI, for any carburetor application
-Rated for temperatures from -40 to 257 degrees F
-CARB approved
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Last edited by vwnut1 on Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having been into the VWs for 30 years and gotten ethanol at every chance when possible before it became a standard, can say it is not the ethanol attacking the German flex fuel lines. Maybe something else added into your particular area fuel....
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dmeffert
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, thanks for the safety advice. Will definitely look into it. In the meanwhile I will get busy with the safety wire.
Back to my original question. Does anyone know why the second 28 Pict 1 has the different accelerator pump nozzle and the second brass pipe over the choke plate?
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glutamodo Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:

Calling glutamodo!


And here I am.

The 28PICT carburetor did have a different accelerator pump "dump tube" than the 28PICT-1. The parts book says that this change happened with the 28PICT-1 redesign. However that parts book only lists one such tube for the 28PICT and I'm pretty sure there were two - look at the ones on the far right here in this photo:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Now for the power fuel outlet in the top half of the carburetor - ALL 28PICT and 28PICT-1 carburetors should have this. The 30PICT-1s that were used on 1300 engines (1966 in the USA) were the ones that did not have this... and those carb tops do fit onto the 28PICT series carburetors!


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



My guess is that you have a 1966 30PICT-1 carb top on there - and, speaking from experience, if the power fuel system is blocked on a 28PICT series carb, it will limit your power at high speed. VW even mentioned this in a Workshop Manual Note regarding some "blem" carbs:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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dmeffert
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glutamodo, I just saw a copy of the carb service manual for the 28 PICT and it explained the power fuel system. My carb has the dump tube second down from the top on the right.
The carb body currently in the car has the top dump tube in the middle row. I was wondering about the 30 PICT top. I have a 30 PICT that has the same top as the carb that came on my car and it also has the same dump tube.

On another note, I was going to send one of these carbs out over the winter to have it re-bushed and to have a threaded inlet fitting installed. I have a stock 1200 that has had a 12 volt conversion with an alternator and it has a 205T distributor. Would you use the 30 PICT 1 or the 28 PICT 1 with this?
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dmeffert
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the detailed reply and the great pictures!
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glutamodo Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmeffert wrote:
My carb has the dump tube second down from the top on the right.
The carb body currently in the car has the top dump tube in the middle row.


Top in the middle row? That's bizarre, as those longer ones are for 34 series carburetors!

Is your 1200 stock or big-bore'd? I think either carb would be OK, as long as it's jetted properly for the application. I've run both on my big-bore 40HP over the years. But I use a 40HP distributor.


-Andy
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dmeffert
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy, My bad. I went and measured the dump tube and it is 3/4 inch from side to side, so it looks more like the bottom middle one.

I have a 61 Turquoise ragtop, Nov. 60 production date. The motor appears stock but the more I dig into the car, the more stuff I find that has been added on from other cars over the years.

There is very little clearance between the dizzy and the fuel pump, so I am assuming that is why they put the 205 T in the car. I put a mightyvac on the can and it moves the contact plate and seems to hold vacuum. I did learn from Samba to time it at TDC and it made a huge difference in the way it ran. PO had it at 5° atdc.
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dmeffert
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My favorite PO trick was that he tried to make a 67 horn ring work on the original hydrate green steering wheel and bent the screws and hogged out the threads.
They also had a 66 air cleaner on it and they beat a dent into it for clearance. I don't know why because I have an original one that fits just fine.
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bluebus86
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmeffert wrote:
My favorite PO trick was that he tried to make a 67 horn ring work on the original hydrate green steering wheel and bent the screws and hogged out the threads.
They also had a 66 air cleaner on it and they beat a dent into it for clearance. I don't know why because I have an original one that fits just fine.


Oh, you have an L380 61 Bug with color matched interior, cool!!!!

I have one also, dad bought it new. (I was delivered from the hospital from being born in that car, parents have a photo to prove it with Mom holding me!!!, My first car ride)

I got it about 37 years ago from him as a kid. Now has 337K miles. body is good, interior is rough (not restored).

I remember my Dad rebuilding the motor, with me sitting on the work bench watching . when I got it as a teenager we rebuilt the motor again and tranny, that was at 155K miles. our rebuilt of the tranny has lasted longer than the original factory build did!

Any luck getting original color interior parts???

Any photos?
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Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information

Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022
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dmeffert
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should post some pics. No joy on the interior parts. I had paint made up using the steering wheel and I have discussed the interior with Lenny at West Coast. Once the paint and body is finished I will worry about that. I really just want it to be relatively close in appearance to the original. I really wish I had an original interior panel so I could see the colors of the vinyl.
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dmeffert
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glutamodo, thank you for your input on my post as well as the very informative post that was linked to this thread. Thanks also to everyone else. It was a huge help.
Per what you said the carb that was on my car when I bought it apparently had a 30 Pict 1 top and accelerator pump dump tube on it. My friend gave me a 28 Pict 1 and a 30 Pict 1 for spare parts, so I was able to see the differences right away when I looked at them. There was very little throttle shaft play on the carb that came with the car, and the spare one was really worn, so I decided to use the body of the first carb with parts scrounged out of the second one. I cleaned the heck out of it, and put in a kit from cip1. I used the top and the dump tube from the spare carb, and when I got to the inside of the carb, I noticed that the main jet was not the size listed in the manual, and that the needle and seat and the air mixture needle were identical to the ones in the cip 1 kit. The needle and seat in the spare was a Solex, so I used it, and the air mixture needle appeared original, and had a vastly different taper than the one in the kit and the one in the carb, so I used it too.
I got the carb on the car, and it runs really well. The car is holding a nice idle. I am going to stop at the hardware store this afternoon and find some safety wire to wire up my connections and I hope that I will be on the road.
Thanks again to you guys on the Samba and to my new local VW friends who have been an amazing source of help.
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