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Nightmare before Christmas — Teflon buttons UPDATED W/PICS
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t0ne321
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:52 pm    Post subject: Nightmare before Christmas — Teflon buttons UPDATED W/PICS Reply with quote

Hey guys. Long time since I've been around here. So, 2 years ago I built an engine for my beetle. 1955(76x90.5) dual springs Los panchitos heads dual hdmx 40s Weber 120 cam yadda yadda

I used Teflon buttons. Everything ran fine for about 1 month. Plenty of power. Couldn't be happier. Then suddenly I noticed a strange noise coming from the engine. I decided to store the car and just go on about my life. 2 years later I decide to tear it down and this is what I find.

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


ZERO evidence that there even was buttons in there in the first place. Did they melt away? WTF

So it goes without saying I need new pistons and cylinders. What should be my next course of action. I'm planning on tearing it down completely and clearing out all the pieces of metal from the piston that broke. What caused my buttons to melt away? When it ran, oil pressure was always good and the cylinder heads never got exceedingly hot. (I measured them a few times with an infrared gun.)

So... I probably won't use buttons again. Should I expect a lot of damage to the rest of the engine? My case is full flowed with filter installed.
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Last edited by t0ne321 on Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:20 pm; edited 2 times in total
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modok
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:19 am    Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas — Teflon buttons Reply with quote

"Teflon buttons" don't work with slipper skirt pistons.

But where did the pieces go?
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t0ne321
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:29 am    Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas — Teflon buttons Reply with quote

So... I screwed up then? Fuck. I had no idea they didn't work with my setup. Why exactly are they incompatible?

I have no idea where the pieces went. There's nothing left of them. All 8 are completely gone.
I haven't split the case yet, but should I expect everything else to be fine or is my engine most likely trashed?
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Last edited by t0ne321 on Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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t0ne321
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:32 am    Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas — Teflon buttons Reply with quote

at first glance, the connecting rods feel like they have lots of play at the bearing
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:21 am    Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas — Teflon buttons Reply with quote

t0ne321 wrote:
So... I screwed up then? Fuck. I had no idea they didn't work with my setup. Why exactly are they incompatible?



I expect they would fall out.


The radial play of the bearings is too small to feel, you are probably feeling the "side play".
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:24 am    Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas — Teflon buttons Reply with quote

doh! use tru-arc retainers!
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:51 am    Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas — Teflon buttons Reply with quote

Your Teflon buttons are at the bottom of the case. It would take over a thousand degrees for them to completely evaporate and there would be serious black charing. You would have smelt it long before you heard the clatter. You will find them when you finish tearing the engine apart. There is a good chance your crank is bent from the abuse. I would have it inspected and measured.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:18 am    Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas — Teflon buttons Reply with quote

t0ne321 wrote:
So... I screwed up then? Fuck. I had no idea they didn't work with my setup. Why exactly are they incompatible?


Teflon buttons keep the pin retained on non-slipper skirt pistons only. If the pin tries to shift and pushes the Teflon against the cylinder wall which retains the pin. On slipper skirts when the pin shifts, there is nothing for the button to push against to keep the pin retained so the buttons fall out, the pin sides over and starts riding on the cylinder wall, which transfers all the combustion forces onto one side of the skirt which snaps it off.

You will find piston chunks scattered all over the inside of the case, as well as little chunks of Teflon from where the buttons got into the rotating assembly and were chewed up. Been there, seen that before...

Inspect and clean, clean, clean! A full flow system should have helped catch some of it...
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas — Teflon buttons Reply with quote

Teflon buttons stay in Place because of the pressure between the wrist pin/piston and the cylinder side wall. The slipper skirt does not afford this same pressure.
Don't feel bad, I had to have that thought through for me, too, after I made same mistake.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:14 am    Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas — Teflon buttons Reply with quote

QUESTION!.... Is it because of the space between pin boss and cylinder wall that allows button to drop out...

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Dale
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:44 am    Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas — Teflon buttons Reply with quote

I always felt the Teflon buttons were very heavy in a place that doesn't need extra weight. I've always liked the spiro-loc or tru-arc.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:40 am    Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas — Teflon buttons Reply with quote

I lighten my buttons so the dont trap oil in the pin adding weight. I like buttons that fall off but not ones in a piston Shocked use the oe retainers. you just screw up.live and learn.and pay attn to everything and what it does and it's purpose.just assembling dosent get it as you have found out.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:58 am    Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas — Teflon buttons Reply with quote

Dale M. wrote:
QUESTION!.... Is it because of the space between pin boss and cylinder wall that allows button to drop out...

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Dale


Yes, There is nothing for the button to rest against so it falls out and the pins slide out.

If you use tru-arc clips, make sure you put them in the right way. The gap between the ends should be parallel to the cylinder and the flat side with a bit of an edge that you can feel with your finger should face out so it grabs the piston.

brad
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:13 am    Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas — Teflon buttons Reply with quote

Doh.
Yeah I see it now. Well... Damn. Live and learn.
Can't believe I missed that detail. Sad ...I wonder how many other details I missed?
That explains that aweful clacking noise it made. I don't know for how long the engine ran like that.
There's damage to one of the rods on the small end, and the piston opposite of that one, but nothing visual on the rod itself. I'll continue to break it down next week when I get home. Is it possible the rods are bent?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:49 am    Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas — Teflon buttons Reply with quote

Yes, the rods and the crank could be bent.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:21 am    Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas — Teflon buttons Reply with quote

if it's just rods and pistons you one luckey dude.it could of taken out the entire mess and left you with a set of valve covers&sump to reuse.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:49 am    Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas — Teflon buttons Reply with quote

So I'm curious about how one goes about checking a crank for straightness. I know you can check the runout with a dial indicator on the center bearing, but is that all that needs to be done to verify the crankshaft? How about the rods? How does one check those?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:12 am    Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas — Teflon buttons Reply with quote

all the vw rods I have are square for the most part. you can lay them on a serface plate or granite counter top and use a feeler gauge and your eyes to see if both ends are square to each other. not tilted or angled or twisted. thats the easy way ir take to a good machine shop that has the proper equipment.. most bent rods are eazy to spot. and yes the dial indicator on center journal and all other journols is a good check. if there bent then your bank account will need a good checking.as will the case.(realy these are so cheep to build these days rods and crank and pistons isant much at all. $600, witch is about $200 less than Ive paid for some of my v8 pistons alone.and $1800 crower cranks(not the super trick the crower ones) and the billet crower rods.......yes these vws are cheep. but so are the owners Shocked Crying or Very sad yes Im in that club now too. for me it's hard to see spending much more for a old vw Shocked thats a 4cyl, and .....makes way less hp. so the butt dyno is less than thrilled,but!!! there still fun and my v8 stuff seems to be too heavy for me to mess with these days. so grin and barrett and getter done. ask all the questions you can think of so you dont have to do this again...ever. and have it ballanced if you didnt. if you cant check it all out send it to hose "A" at DPR. he is honnest and will set you straight.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:23 am    Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas — Teflon buttons Reply with quote

mark tucker wrote:
"Yes these vws are cheep. but so are the owners."


The truest statement I've ever seen! Some will destroy a $1,000 part, to save $10 on another. If you want to go fast, and have it last, get the very best of all parts the first time around. Don't wait until the third time around to get the best!
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Nightmare before Christmas — Teflon buttons Reply with quote

You can always use buttons made for slipper skirts

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