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How to use Rust Converters on parts and seams
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:19 pm    Post subject: How to use Rust Converters on parts and seams Reply with quote

I get asked a lot how to deal with rust.

One way is to convert it.

Two products that I have used and become at home with the process are:
Eastwood Rust Converter and Ospho:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I am taking the time to explain a bit of the process to help DIY types as it is worth the effort in my opinion.
Rust never sleeps, but we can give it a heavy dose of sleeping pills to knock it out for some time.
Than, if we starve it of the needed essentials, we can keep it down.
Will it come back?
Yes, eventually, but not as it was first present if these steps are used to neutralize it, coat it and than protect the area.

More to come.


Last edited by insyncro on Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:00 am; edited 2 times in total
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:29 pm    Post subject: Re: How to use Rust Convertors on parts and seams Reply with quote

Ospho:

Here is a Syncro upper control arm with mild surface rust being treated.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


A horsehair acid brush was used to apply the solution.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is the telltail sign that rust was present.
The white scale will brush off, but not completely.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The KEY to success when using Ospho is to neutralize it before any coating is to be done.
I use steam in hard to reach areas and hot water directly on parts such as this.
You must neutralize this product or your results will not be as shown here.

Here are the arms after receiving a coating of primer.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It doesnt take long to see how well the adhesion of the primer is in the areas that were converted by Ospho.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Once dried and cured, I will top coat these arms with a Chassis Saver type product and add a final 2K clear coat.
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syncrodoka
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: How to use Rust Convertors on parts and seams Reply with quote

Wouldn't media blasting parts that can be removed take care of the rust and give a more uniform appearance?
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:48 pm    Post subject: Re: How to use Rust Convertors on parts and seams Reply with quote

Here are a set of lower arms from a Suzuki LT500 Quadzilla that were media blasted down to bare metal.
I use Ospho to etch them before coating.
The pores of the metal have been opened by the blasting process and as we see here, the Ospho has a more uniform conversion.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You can still see some of the brush strokes of the Ospho, but it will be covered and not detected once the layers of topcoating are applied and cured.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:49 pm    Post subject: Re: How to use Rust Convertors on parts and seams Reply with quote

syncrodoka wrote:
Wouldn't media blasting parts that can be removed take care of the rust and give a more uniform appearance?


Next post.
I have pages to share here Mario.
Patience please.

I am trying to show the "process" and what will be seen happening in front of your eyes.

I do not have time to film and edit a video.
Just trying to help Volks save some parts and make them look presentable.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:03 pm    Post subject: Re: How to use Rust Convertors on parts and seams Reply with quote

Now here are the Racer's arms primed....and as Mario pointed out, a more consistent coverage...during the drying.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Once these arms and the Syncro arms have dried and cured, the coating is uniform, but the texture of the metal below is where you see a difference.
SO, if you want the part you are restoring to have uniform pitting, it must be media blasted.
I will cover later, what products you can use to "fill" the pits and still have a very strong coating.

Again, this process and suggestions are for DIYers who want to have a good looking part and have it prtected.

Sure, powder coating is great, BUT it really is meant for fresh metal.
Once surface rust and oxidation are present, it will not be in the best interest of someone looking for longevity, this is my opinion.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: How to use Rust Convertors on parts and seams Reply with quote

Seams:

This is where we really need to focus and I do not advise just splashing either of these products onto your van.

I repeat, I do not advise just splashing either of these products onto your van.

Both will etch your paint and clear coat, changing the appearance and it will not buff out.

Ok, so with the Vanagon seams we have the outer, painted portion and the inner seam sealed portion.

How do you get the products into the seam?
Answer, very carefully and very slowly.

First, the old seam sealer must be removed.
I have been posting about that process for some time now and it can be done with a razor knife, Snap On Crud Thug or other brand rotary device and with my personal favorite a Fein Multimaster Tool.

Once the old sealer has been removed, we need to address the rust.
If your van is typical, it will look something like this:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is my daily driver, winter storm fun mobile and test pig....so dont be alarmed at the rust, I'm not.
What I like about this rust shown here is that it is uniform down the seam...and easier to fix IMHO than when a huge rust area is towards the top of this particular seam and much wider.

Shocked See what the Ospho did to the painted surface Shocked
I didnt mask the rusted areas and seam...totally to show everyone paying attention here, how these products will make a mess if you are not careful.

Ok, back to the treating of the seam and rusted areas.
If you are going to be painting the entire vehicle, like I do, yes you can save the masking and not worry about it as much.
If you want to treat just the seam, like shown here:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You must mask the area very carefully with a autobody specific masking tape that will not allow bleed through.
I only use 3M masking products, ordered from Autobody supply houses, not the painters tapes found at the Dept and Blowes, those are for latex house paint.

The splash marks are mud....remember Ospho must be neutralized before you move on to the next step.
I drive my vans and this one is testing how long the Ospho can in its neutralized state and how UV rays effect it.
I will post more on this later as it is still being driven daily, but once we have winter weather and salt being applied to the roads, I will reseal the seams with 3M 8115 to help get me through the winter as this van will see its full resto next summer.
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zak99B5
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:07 pm    Post subject: Re: How to use Rust Convertors on parts and seams Reply with quote

Great thread--especially for us northeasterners.

Thanks!
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:12 pm    Post subject: Re: How to use Rust Convertors on parts and seams Reply with quote

zak99B5 wrote:
Great thread--especially for us northeasterners.

Thanks!


Right on Bro Wink
My pleasure.

All Vanagons have rust....some more than others Laughing

And if someone says that the van they have is "rust free"...they dont know where to look.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:14 pm    Post subject: Re: How to use Rust Convertors on parts and seams Reply with quote

Interior of the seam:

Lets not forget that the rust on your van is coming from inside out.
So, if you just battle it at the surface, you will lose Exclamation

Getting these products into the seam isnt difficult, but takes time and patience.
If you lack either of these, do yourself the favor and do not start into converting seam rust.

My tool of choice to deliver the convertor into the seam is an airbrush.

Arrow picture to be posted later

The fan or spray of an airbrush is very controllable and this is why I prefer it.
You can adjust the fan to a pinpoint and apply the product to the outer seam and than adjust the fan very wide to coat the entire inner panel seam.
Yes, inner panel, meaning inside the van...where accessible.
Anything not able to be reached with the airbrush, I use a 60", 360 degree spray tipped wand, attached to a pressure pot to blow the convertor into these areas.

Once the convertor has been applied for 24-36 hours, I than wash with hot water and in the tough to reach areas I use steam to neutralize the convertor.
Hot water can also be applied with the wand and pressure pot, but steam has worked just fine for me.

A Steam Shark is a tool that can be found at Home Supply stores for cleaning, getting wrinkles out of curtains and does a great job delivering stream for this purpose as well.
They cost about $80 and I only recommend using distilled water in them or the heating element will crap out fast.


Last edited by insyncro on Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: How to use Rust Convertors on parts and seams Reply with quote

Ospho is one product.
The Eastwood product...and save the "Eastwood is crap" posts please, is a bit different and will help show what I am describing as "foaming", plus you see a drastic color change during the process and once cured.

This Syncro Westy is getting a full paint job, so I have the luxury of not needing to mask and be super precise with the conversion process.

Here are some before and during conversion pictures to illustrate the foaming and color changes to the rusted areas.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


No special light is being used.
This is the "action" I speak of.
The rust is being transformed.
I continually work the areas with the acid brush, not adding more convertor, but agitating solution and working it into ALL nooks and crevices.

When allowed to cure over the next 24-36 hours, the rust will become black.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Arrow These photos are to illustrate the conversion process. they are taken out of sequence and out of context for restoration.
When I bring a vehicle inside for work, I neutralize the rust after removing the seams.
Than it sits.
How long???
....until I feel the rust has been put to sleep so to speak and most importantly, it is dry, from heat and non exposure to the elements.

Restoration takes a LONG time at my shop and the vans sit for extended periods to ensure that each process is complete before moving on to the next.
All patch work and panel replacement is done after I feel the entire vehicle is stable.
Yes, on this particular van, sections will be cut away and this process will start all over in those areas. Arrow
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: How to use Rust Convertors on parts and seams Reply with quote

More converting with the Eastwood Convertor:

This time I had a used Vanagon tow hitch I needed to put into use.
It was fine as is, but why not experiment a bit for fun.

The hitch had light surface rust pretty much all over it as the cheap power coating wore off fast.
I scuffed the entire surface with a 150 grit sanding sponge.

The Eastwood product lite up like a Christmas tree:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Working it with the acid brush.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Starting to dry.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The end of a long day and loosing the light, but we can see the color changing to blackish as it is moving from drying to curing.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:37 pm    Post subject: Re: How to use Rust Convertors on parts and seams Reply with quote

Tow hitch top coat:

I am skipping the primer stage pictures and going straight to the finish.
Magnet Paints Semi Gloss Black Chassis Saver.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:56 pm    Post subject: Re: How to use Rust Convertors on parts and seams Reply with quote

The main difference between the Ospho and Eastwood product would be that the Eastwood shows the action better and it does not have to be neutralized with water or steam.

My trials are still in the infancy stage....I have about 3 years worth of data at this point.
I can not say that one product is "better" than the other, but will say, if you just want to clean the metal, lightly sand off the scale and apply a convertor, Eastwood may be best for you.

The Ospho will wick and creep better, this is why I now use it more for the inner seams of the chassis, but have trials similar to the tow hitch to be able to make some distinctions between the two.

All of my converted and top coated parts are doing very well in use, regardless of the convertor used.
I feel that the longevity of the coatings has more to do with how well the products were worked into the metals and how long they were allowed to cure.

The directions on both products are fairly detailed and cover different types of metals as well.

I will continue posting and updating some of these featured areas and parts as time goes on.
The tow hitch has seen the most use and other than where the trailer attaches to the ball, a rub area, the coatings look great.

I hope this helps a few save some Vanagon parts and for the adventurous, some chassises too.

Now that we have some pictures and brief descriptions, I can field some questions and comments.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:14 pm    Post subject: Re: How to use Rust Converters on parts and seams Reply with quote

Good job laying out your experience and technique. Very informative.

Mark
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: How to use Rust Converters on parts and seams Reply with quote

boroko wrote:
Good job laying out your experience and technique. Very informative.

Mark


Thanks.
It takes a lot of time to post here in detail, but well worth the effort.

I hope some take the plunge and start with some small parts and see how it goes.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:24 pm    Post subject: Re: How to use Rust Converters on parts and seams Reply with quote

Not quite sure why you keep saying that Ospho needs to be washed off or neutralized.
http://www.ospho.com/directions.htm
Not to say that washing it off will destroy the conversion, and I have done it both ways, but it's not really necessary. It acts like a primer.

You might be thinking of Por 15's Metal Ready (Metal Prep), it needs to be washed before painting.
http://qr.absolutecoatings.com/QR-assets/downloads/POR15/MetalReadyDescription.pdf
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:44 pm    Post subject: Re: How to use Rust Converters on parts and seams Reply with quote

MsTaboo wrote:
Not quite sure why you keep saying that Ospho needs to be washed off or neutralized.
http://www.ospho.com/directions.htm
Not to say that washing it off will destroy the conversion, and I have done it both ways, but it's not really necessary. It acts like a primer.


If you just want a coating to store metal, leave it on.
Wash it with water and the magic happens....right in front of your eyes.

If you plan to leave it on, make sure it is fully dried and cured before moving on.
I use water to accelerate the process and minimalism thickness.

Many autobody products and "rust" specific products are moisture cured.
I make it happen, when I need it to happen.

If you do not wash this product off with water and the area that is being treated is an exterior panel of a vehicle, a good bodyperson or keen eye will pick out where it was used due to its thickness.
Wash it and the metal is converted and etched without any build up.
Than the next layers will match up.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:46 pm    Post subject: Re: How to use Rust Converters on parts and seams Reply with quote

I have not mentioned POR15 in any of my posts and dont use that pre treatment product.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:51 pm    Post subject: Re: How to use Rust Converters on parts and seams Reply with quote

Taken straight from the "directions"...and with ALL that I do, appearance does matter Exclamation

"where appearance is important, apply one coat of OSPHO, let stand for approximately thirty minutes or until metal is etched. Flush with water"
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