| Author |
Message |
creative native 
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007
Posts: 1227
Location: WNC
|
 Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: Meaning of 3 digit vertical number on VIN plate? |
 |
|
| Moataz El Hakim wrote: |
You are fully correct. Thank you very much for your help. |
You are very welcome. I am glad that I could help. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
bnam
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2006
Posts: 2936
Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
|
| Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: Meaning of 3 digit vertical number on VIN plate? |
|
|
| creative native wrote: |
| Moataz El Hakim wrote: |
Also i have another question for the production plate, do you know what is " K K 2"? Which is located also vertically.
|
I believe this is related to the paint code and the K indicates yours was built at the Karmann factory and the paint color was shared between Karmann Ghias (up to 1974, of course), convertible Beetles and Porsche 914s. |
I don’t believe K indicates built at Karmann. Karmann built cars hav a 9 as the first of the second 4 digit number. This one is 6 indicating a diff factory.
_________________
1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
Click to view image
1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
1952 Citroen TA 11BL |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gerrelt
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2004
Posts: 682
Location: The Netherlands
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Moataz El Hakim
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2021
Posts: 6
Location: Egypt
|
| Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Meaning of 3 digit vertical number on VIN plate? |
|
|
My engine is 1600 cc. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gerrelt
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2004
Posts: 682
Location: The Netherlands
|
| Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 4:04 am Post subject: Re: Meaning of 3 digit vertical number on VIN plate? |
|
|
Thanks! I've added the info.
Also added some plates I found while googling for VW beetle type plates.
_________________
homepage
_________________ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bnam
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2006
Posts: 2936
Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
|
| Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 4:56 am Post subject: Re: Meaning of 3 digit vertical number on VIN plate? |
|
|
1974 1200L
three letter code 101
Vin 114 2
1140, 490, 710
Made in Germany
So, this 74 still said made in Germany, while another mentioned Western Germany -- which I think was also used on older plates (50s?)
Briefly, I considered an alternative theory - perhaps first 2 numbers indicate factory and line. Since vin numbers were assigned by factory from a central location, the VIN plates would have been printed/punched centrally. I thought the 3 letter code could indicate which factory/line the batch of VIN plates was to be assigned to.
For example 10x and 11x - Wolfusburg factories and lines, 15x - Karmann
18x - Hannover etc.
_________________
1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
Click to view image
1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
1952 Citroen TA 11BL |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GArBa
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2014
Posts: 2105
Location: Milano, Italy
|
| Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 6:16 am Post subject: Re: Meaning of 3 digit vertical number on VIN plate? |
|
|
I'm still thinking the three-digit code is a part number for the (blank) plate itself.
_________________
cars:
'97 type 1 1600i
'14 type AA Seat Mii (sadly dead after 270.000 km)
'22 type C1 T-Cross
'23 type AC3 Hyundai I10 (VW no longer makes small cars!)
-------------------------
moped:
'82 Benelli Magnum 3v |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gerrelt
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2004
Posts: 682
Location: The Netherlands
|
| Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 8:19 am Post subject: Re: Meaning of 3 digit vertical number on VIN plate? |
|
|
| bnam wrote: |
1974 1200L
three letter code 101
Vin 114 2
1140, 490, 710
Made in Germany
So, this 74 still said made in Germany, while another mentioned Western Germany -- which I think was also used on older plates (50s?)
|
Thanks! I added it to the list, but it's not entirely complete:
What does your plate say at "Typ"? I guess it will be "11"?
And does your plate have the heating (Heizg...) info line?
| bnam wrote: |
Briefly, I considered an alternative theory - perhaps first 2 numbers indicate factory and line. Since vin numbers were assigned by factory from a central location, the VIN plates would have been printed/punched centrally. I thought the 3 letter code could indicate which factory/line the batch of VIN plates was to be assigned to.
For example 10x and 11x - Wolfusburg factories and lines, 15x - Karmann
18x - Hannover etc. |
Tempting theory, but I don't think it's right. I am not sure, but I think all 1303's were made in Sarajevo, and not in Wolfsburg. And yet, their vertical code starts with 1 (and 5).
_________________
homepage
_________________ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
creative native
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007
Posts: 1227
Location: WNC
|
| Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 9:11 am Post subject: Re: Meaning of 3 digit vertical number on VIN plate? |
|
|
Sun Bugs were built at the Emden plant. My 1303 Sun Bug's birth certificate lists this.
Last edited by creative native on Mon May 17, 2021 6:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TK-CS
Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2019
Posts: 279
Location: D - Deutschland
|
| Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: Meaning of 3 digit vertical number on VIN plate? |
|
|
| Gerrelt wrote: |
| I am not sure, but I think all 1303's were made in Sarajevo, and not in Wolfsburg. |
For sure not. 1303 were made in Wolfsburg and Emden. I would tend to say the 1303 was never made in Sarajevo.
_________________
AC:
'71 1600LE (Type 3 Notchback FI/AT) Sunroof
'75 1303 (Super Beetle) 1600DP, Sunroof
WC:
'77 Audi NSU Ro80
'88 GTI 16V
'91 Corrado G60
Daily:
'04 Passat Wagon 2.0TDI
'13 Passat Wagon 2.0TSI |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TK-CS
Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2019
Posts: 279
Location: D - Deutschland
|
| Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Meaning of 3 digit vertical number on VIN plate? |
|
|
| Moataz El Hakim wrote: |
Any body knows what is the 3 digits 543 in vertical means or refer to what?
My car is 1303 year 1975 original manual transmission.
|
I can add a picture of a very similar plate. Also '75 Super Beetle S-Model, Sunroof, manual transmission, Emden production, destination country Germany. Without inscription "WESTERN GERMANY". The other data is identical. Plate code says "540".
_________________
AC:
'71 1600LE (Type 3 Notchback FI/AT) Sunroof
'75 1303 (Super Beetle) 1600DP, Sunroof
WC:
'77 Audi NSU Ro80
'88 GTI 16V
'91 Corrado G60
Daily:
'04 Passat Wagon 2.0TDI
'13 Passat Wagon 2.0TSI |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bnam
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2006
Posts: 2936
Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
|
| Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: Meaning of 3 digit vertical number on VIN plate? |
|
|
| Gerrelt wrote: |
| bnam wrote: |
1974 1200L
three letter code 101
Vin 114 2
1140, 490, 710
Made in Germany
So, this 74 still said made in Germany, while another mentioned Western Germany -- which I think was also used on older plates (50s?)
|
Thanks! I added it to the list, but it's not entirely complete:
What does your plate say at "Typ"? I guess it will be "11"?
And does your plate have the heating (Heizg...) info line?
| bnam wrote: |
Briefly, I considered an alternative theory - perhaps first 2 numbers indicate factory and line. Since vin numbers were assigned by factory from a central location, the VIN plates would have been printed/punched centrally. I thought the 3 letter code could indicate which factory/line the batch of VIN plates was to be assigned to.
For example 10x and 11x - Wolfusburg factories and lines, 15x - Karmann
18x - Hannover etc. |
Tempting theory, but I don't think it's right. I am not sure, but I think all 1303's were made in Sarajevo, and not in Wolfsburg. And yet, their vertical code starts with 1 (and 5). |
Yes, typ 11 and it has the heater info.
The theory could still hold - 155 could be Sarajevo and 156 could be Osnabruck. But I’m not sure.
_________________
1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
Click to view image
1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
1952 Citroen TA 11BL |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bnam
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2006
Posts: 2936
Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
|
| Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Meaning of 3 digit vertical number on VIN plate? |
|
|
| Quote: |
Tempting theory, but I don't think it's right. I am not sure, but I think all 1303's were made in Sarajevo, and not in Wolfsburg. And yet, their vertical code starts with 1 (and 5). |
Where did you get the info that all 1303 were made in Sarajevo? I don’t think so. I believe the US bound cars were produced at Emden. Right hand drive 1303 was manufactured in Belgium (I have a BC with that info for a car in my club). There were several locations. I have a typ3 that shows Sarajevo as the destination but more likely place of manufacture from where it was directly exported to India (RHD and part of a set of about 40 cars that were exported for an Indian German project)
_________________
1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
Click to view image
1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
1952 Citroen TA 11BL |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GArBa
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2014
Posts: 2105
Location: Milano, Italy
|
| Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 11:56 pm Post subject: Re: Meaning of 3 digit vertical number on VIN plate? |
|
|
| GArBa wrote: |
| the second two digits (or even the entire number) may be a progressive code assigned to the different types of plate to be later used on the line to punch the VIN of the car. |
I'll sum up my thoughts: As stated before, as a bottom line I'm still convinced of this part of my original theory, i.e. the three digits may be simply a progressive part number.
now to consider the last evidence: bnam's has "101" and it fits with my previous observation.
also, it seems that the "three digits" start appearing in the '70s, so one can suppose it is connected with the switch from the 9 to the 10 digit VIN.
Interesting also that up to now all the type 1 cars have either a "1" or a "5" and the "5" cars seem to date from after mid seventies (I found a '74 super and a '79 thing both with the "5" browsing thesamba gallery). Now one possibility is that the first digit started out as a model number identifier and then it was changed along the road (maybe with the introduction of the watercooled line?).
in the end, without a broader sample the data is too limited to put up a coherent theory beyond my "bottom line".
_________________
cars:
'97 type 1 1600i
'14 type AA Seat Mii (sadly dead after 270.000 km)
'22 type C1 T-Cross
'23 type AC3 Hyundai I10 (VW no longer makes small cars!)
-------------------------
moped:
'82 Benelli Magnum 3v |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Slow 1200
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2004
Posts: 2105
|
| Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 3:03 am Post subject: Re: Meaning of 3 digit vertical number on VIN plate? |
|
|
Apparently they did build some 1303s in Sarajevo but I don't think they were exporting any of those, the build numbers between 1973 and 1976 are:
1200J 29.112 units
1300J 525 units
1303J: 2030 units
TAS was a tiny CKD operation, there's no way they were supplying cars to export markets |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Moataz El Hakim
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2021
Posts: 6
Location: Egypt
|
| Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 7:05 am Post subject: Re: Meaning of 3 digit vertical number on VIN plate? |
|
|
| I believe that the 3 vertical digits refer to VW factory code where the was assembled. As VW had many factories. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bnam
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2006
Posts: 2936
Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
|
| Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 7:56 am Post subject: Re: Meaning of 3 digit vertical number on VIN plate? |
|
|
| GArBa wrote: |
| GArBa wrote: |
| the second two digits (or even the entire number) may be a progressive code assigned to the different types of plate to be later used on the line to punch the VIN of the car. |
I'll sum up my thoughts: As stated before, as a bottom line I'm still convinced of this part of my original theory, i.e. the three digits may be simply a progressive part number.
now to consider the last evidence: bnam's has "101" and it fits with my previous observation.
also, it seems that the "three digits" start appearing in the '70s, so one can suppose it is connected with the switch from the 9 to the 10 digit VIN.
Interesting also that up to now all the type 1 cars have either a "1" or a "5" and the "5" cars seem to date from after mid seventies (I found a '74 super and a '79 thing both with the "5" browsing thesamba gallery). Now one possibility is that the first digit started out as a model number identifier and then it was changed along the road (maybe with the introduction of the watercooled line?).
in the end, without a broader sample the data is too limited to put up a coherent theory beyond my "bottom line". |
I see your point, but there are a quite a few discrepancies that don't add up for me.
For example - if it were a would a progressive part number have 101 (which should have been an early number) all the way down in 74? (102 and 103 were seen in 70).
Two different plates - one a 71 embossed part and another a 72 embossed part have the same number 156.
I'll add a few more.
_________________
1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
Click to view image
1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
1952 Citroen TA 11BL |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gerrelt
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2004
Posts: 682
Location: The Netherlands
|
| Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 8:01 am Post subject: Re: Meaning of 3 digit vertical number on VIN plate? |
|
|
| creative native wrote: |
| Sun Bugs were built at the Emden plant. My 1303 Sun Bug's birth certificate lists this. |
| TK-CS wrote: |
| Gerrelt wrote: |
| I am not sure, but I think all 1303's were made in Sarajevo, and not in Wolfsburg. |
For sure not. 1303 were made in Wolfsburg and Emden. I would tend to say the 1303 was never made in Sarajevo. |
| bnam wrote: |
| Quote: |
Tempting theory, but I don't think it's right. I am not sure, but I think all 1303's were made in Sarajevo, and not in Wolfsburg. And yet, their vertical code starts with 1 (and 5). |
Where did you get the info that all 1303 were made in Sarajevo? I don’t think so. I believe the US bound cars were produced at Emden. Right hand drive 1303 was manufactured in Belgium (I have a BC with that info for a car in my club). There were several locations. I have a typ3 that shows Sarajevo as the destination but more likely place of manufacture from where it was directly exported to India (RHD and part of a set of about 40 cars that were exported for an Indian German project) |
This site claims that the 1303 was build in Sarajevo (and the 1302 somewhere else), but apparently that's not true. 
Is there a complete list somewhere of which models where produced where?
| TK-CS wrote: |
I can add a picture of a very similar plate. Also '75 Super Beetle S-Model, Sunroof, manual transmission, Emden production, destination country Germany. Without inscription "WESTERN GERMANY". The other data is identical. Plate code says "540".
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/2178828.jpg |
Thanks for providing this info, I've added it to the list!
Pretty strange that there was a version without the second line.
There are more variations of this plate then I thought.
| bnam wrote: |
Yes, typ 11 and it has the heater info. |
Thanks! I've updated the list.
| GArBa wrote: |
Interesting also that up to now all the type 1 cars have either a "1" or a "5" and the "5" cars seem to date from after mid seventies (I found a '74 super and a '79 thing both with the "5" browsing thesamba gallery). |
Yeah, I noticed that too. I believe 1974 is the year they moved the production of the standard beetle from Germany to Mexico. Maybe that's related?
| Slow 1200 wrote: |
Apparently they did build some 1303s in Sarajevo but I don't think they were exporting any of those, the build numbers between 1973 and 1976 are:
1200J 29.112 units
1300J 525 units
1303J: 2030 units
TAS was a tiny CKD operation, there's no way they were supplying cars to export markets |
Isn't the "J" version a special version produced for Yugoslavia?
Quick google: Yes:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=186641
Picture:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/43/af/35/43af35ebbc8119d5ef890daab6a84f26.jpg
@all:
The list can still be found here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13IgMriI-ua9Hla-VNnCA--CXU6stl12tAcY0judepZg/edit?usp=sharing
If you have a plate that's not in the list, it would be excellent if you shared a picture of it. Please also add some info on the car (like engine size).
_________________
homepage
_________________ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GArBa
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2014
Posts: 2105
Location: Milano, Italy
|
| Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 10:47 pm Post subject: Re: Meaning of 3 digit vertical number on VIN plate? |
|
|
| bnam wrote: |
I see your point, but there are a quite a few discrepancies that don't add up for me.
For example - if it were a would a progressive part number have 101 (which should have been an early number) all the way down in 74? (102 and 103 were seen in 70).
Two different plates - one a 71 embossed part and another a 72 embossed part have the same number 156.
I'll add a few more. |
I see, but "progressive" is not just related to time in years. We can hypothesize e.g. that at the very the beginning of the system a number of plate types were identified and assigned numbers, and given the small sampling we have we could just have missed "101"s from earlier.
@Moataz El Hakim, I find your theory less believable as in the limited sample we observed we have cars from the same factory with different numbers and vice-versa.
@Gerrelt, production of the standard beetle continued in Germany up to 1978. it was never "moved" to Mexico. During that time (since 1967 if memory serves me) Mexico was already making its own bugs for domestic consumption and even when in 1978 when Mexico started providing Europe a specific bug version it was different from the last German-made cars (e.g. Mexico still used the older roof pressing with the smaller back window and continued it through the 1980s).
_________________
cars:
'97 type 1 1600i
'14 type AA Seat Mii (sadly dead after 270.000 km)
'22 type C1 T-Cross
'23 type AC3 Hyundai I10 (VW no longer makes small cars!)
-------------------------
moped:
'82 Benelli Magnum 3v |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TK-CS
Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2019
Posts: 279
Location: D - Deutschland
|
| Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 12:22 am Post subject: Re: Meaning of 3 digit vertical number on VIN plate? |
|
|
| Gerrelt wrote: |
Pretty strange that there was a version without the second line.
|
It is also the first time that I noticed this fact (and I own this car since 1992).
Maybe they did not want to confuse German people of the '70s with English language on their car. Or it was generally only used for export vehicles.
Will look on my Type 3 what the plate says.
_________________
AC:
'71 1600LE (Type 3 Notchback FI/AT) Sunroof
'75 1303 (Super Beetle) 1600DP, Sunroof
WC:
'77 Audi NSU Ro80
'88 GTI 16V
'91 Corrado G60
Daily:
'04 Passat Wagon 2.0TDI
'13 Passat Wagon 2.0TSI |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
