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Tom Powell
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2005
Posts: 4855
Location: Kaneohe
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 Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:25 am Post subject: Torque wrenches and anti-sieze |
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In the Vanagon forum there have been postings on torque wrenches and anti-sieze. Many opinions and a few facts. Here is a reply that I did regarding the types of anti-sieze. Perhaps this will be useful for Bay owners also.
Good reading on various types of anti-sieze:
http://www.antiseize.com/pdf/how-to-choose-an-antiseize.pdf
in part it recommends:
ZINC ANTI-SEIZETM: Zinc dust and petrolatum compound 750°F.
For use on threaded joints, aircraft spark plugs, threaded steel parts assembled in aluminum or zinc castings.
Available at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/ZINC-ANTI-SEIZE-Zinc-Petrolatum-Compound/dp/B00VM37GWE
Aloha
tp |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:04 am Post subject: Re: Torque wrenches and anti-sieze |
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I participated in some long torque studies with about 35 different anti-sieze compounds (about 50 were tested in all)....for a manufacturer I worked for years back.
About 50% of the issue of high torque variance versus moderate variance from dry to lubricated.....was application volume and method of application of the anti-seize. Ray |
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Amskeptic
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2002
Posts: 8568
Location: All Across The Country
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Torque wrenches and anti-sieze |
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| Tom Powell wrote: |
| In the Vanagon forum there have been postings on torque wrenches and anti-sieze. Many opinions and a few facts. |
Here's a fact-free opinion from the field . . .
I use anti-seize all over the place, even the day before yesterday on my front bumper bolts and step bolts:
I use anti-seize on all of my chassis bolts/nuts and exhaust fasteners and most-alarmingly, on my lug bolts and brake drum/disk hub flanges.
Knowing that the friction effects of dry threads are absent, I torque all of my anti-seized fasteners to absolutely no more than the factory-recommended values. If your intuition thinks they need to be tighter to make sure they stay on, you are missing the physics by a mile.
Have not had a wheel or any other assembly fall off any of my cars in my life. If I do lose a wheel on a hairpin, I'll have my estate update this thread.
Colin
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: Torque wrenches and anti-sieze |
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Yes...I use it RELIGIOUSLY on virtually every metal fastener on my vehicle. I just know that certain low torque items like spark plugs...you need to be careful.
Suspension and brake parts are a must with anti-seize. Ray |
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Tom Powell
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2005
Posts: 4855
Location: Kaneohe
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: Torque wrenches and anti-sieze |
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| Amskeptic wrote: |
| ... I use anti-seize all over the place ... |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Yes...I use it RELIGIOUSLY on virtually every metal fastener on my vehicle. ... |
You and me both. My rational is that if I had to do the job now, there is the possibility that it might have to be done again sometime in the future. i.e. spark plugs, lug nuts or bolts, engine tin, bumper fasteners, exhaust fasteners, etc.
The caveats are:
Don't get any anti-sieze on the porcelain part of a spark plug or the conical part of the lug nut or bolt.
Aloha
tp |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: Torque wrenches and anti-sieze |
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| Tom Powell wrote: |
Don't get any anti-sieze on the porcelain part of a spark plug or the conical part of the lug nut or bolt.
Aloha
tp |
That means that it is best to wipe the porcelain off prior to screwing the plug into place. Way to easy to have a bit on you hands and get it onto the porcelain. 
I am always amazed that so few people use products like anti seize on spark plug threads and such. I just pulled a set of plugs from a Toyota that from the gaps ~.070" looked like they might have been in there for 100k miles or longer (spec was .032 or .035" IIRC). I wasn't sure at all I was going to be able to get the plugs out without damaging the threads, every twist of the wrench was pretty much what the plug could handle without breaking. This truck was a one owner vehicle owned by the wife of a mechanic, I know she would have wanted it to be maintained better, guess hubby just didn't care. |
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Tom Powell
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2005
Posts: 4855
Location: Kaneohe
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: Torque wrenches and anti-sieze |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Tom Powell wrote: |
Don't get any anti-sieze on the porcelain part of a spark plug or the conical part of the lug nut or bolt.
Aloha
tp |
That means that it is best to wipe the porcelain off prior to screwing the plug into place. Way to easy to have a bit on you hands and get it onto the porcelain. |
Better yet to never touch the porcelain and never use a rubber socket insert to hold the plug for installation. An old spark plug wire can be used to get the plug in place and a few threads started before using a clean socket to tighten to 1/4 turn on the crush washer. Never install plugs into a hot engine.
Aloha
tp |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16863
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: Torque wrenches and anti-sieze |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| I am always amazed that so few people use products like anti seize on spark plug threads and such. I just pulled a set of plugs from a Toyota that from the gaps ~.070" looked like they might have been in there for 100k miles or longer (spec was .032 or .035" IIRC). I wasn't sure at all I was going to be able to get the plugs out without damaging the threads, every twist of the wrench was pretty much what the plug could handle without breaking. This truck was a one owner vehicle owned by the wife of a mechanic, I know she would have wanted it to be maintained better, guess hubby just didn't care. |
having seen damage caused due to anti seize on spark plugs I don't use it. it tends to gum up and gall threads. that has been my experience. some folks swear by it. I swear at it...shit is like boob glitter* at a strip club...gets everywhere and impossible to get off.
*boob glitter still in one of my cars to this day from a bachelor party 13 years ago
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: Torque wrenches and anti-sieze |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| I am always amazed that so few people use products like anti seize on spark plug threads and such. I just pulled a set of plugs from a Toyota that from the gaps ~.070" looked like they might have been in there for 100k miles or longer (spec was .032 or .035" IIRC). I wasn't sure at all I was going to be able to get the plugs out without damaging the threads, every twist of the wrench was pretty much what the plug could handle without breaking. This truck was a one owner vehicle owned by the wife of a mechanic, I know she would have wanted it to be maintained better, guess hubby just didn't care. |
having seen damage caused due to anti seize on spark plugs I don't use it. it tends to gum up and gall threads. that has been my experience. some folks swear by it. I swear at it...shit is like boob glitter* at a strip club...gets everywhere and impossible to get off.
*boob glitter still in one of my cars to this day from a bachelor party 13 years ago |
The primary reason behind that is using cheap all purpose anti-seize....and far too much of it .
The products that have copper, aluminum silica and a whole range of materials plus heavier oil and listed as multipurpose... are the worst for that. For an item in high heat lik a spark plug....a single metal plus silica anti size like copper or nickle based....very thinly and sparingly applied should never have that issue.
I do not use it on modern car ignitions. The systems that use ion sensing and/or depend funtionally on the spark plug being a ground point in the control system.....have had issues with putting ANYTHING on the spark plug threads. Ray |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16863
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: Torque wrenches and anti-sieze |
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true ray
combine that with some carbon build up in the threads and it's a disaster for sure.
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: Torque wrenches and anti-sieze |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
true ray
combine that with some carbon build up in the threads and it's a disaster for sure. |
Yep...and that is usually the oil in the antisieze that contributes the the carbon. That oil is not there for lubricating purposes. Its there in just enough quantity to provide a medium to make the powdered metals become a paste. Cheap or poorly engineered anti-seize compounds have far too much oil. You alsso need to mix/stir it before use. Ray |
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Tom Powell
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2005
Posts: 4855
Location: Kaneohe
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: Torque wrenches and anti-sieze |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| having seen damage caused due to anti seize on spark plugs I don't use it. it tends to gum up and gall threads. that has been my experience. some folks swear by it. I swear at it ... |
An excellent article on galling by Fastenal:
https://www.fastenal.com/en/72/galling
In part it says, "Thread lubrication is one of the most effective measures to decrease the potential for galling. The lubricant reduces friction, which is a key element in thread galling."
I was always under the impression that galling occurred when fasteners were being removed, but the article talks about wrench speed during installation being a factor. I was never speedy on installations, but I can understand a galling problem that might arise from dry lug nut or bolt installation with powered equipment.
I swear by it.
Aloha
tp |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Torque wrenches and anti-sieze |
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| Tom Powell wrote: |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| having seen damage caused due to anti seize on spark plugs I don't use it. it tends to gum up and gall threads. that has been my experience. some folks swear by it. I swear at it ... |
An excellent article on galling by Fastenal:
https://www.fastenal.com/en/72/galling
In part it says, "Thread lubrication is one of the most effective measures to decrease the potential for galling. The lubricant reduces friction, which is a key element in thread galling."
I was always under the impression that galling occurred when fasteners were being removed, but the article talks about wrench speed during installation being a factor. I was never speedy on installations, but I can understand a galling problem that might arise from dry lug nut or bolt installation with powered equipment.
I swear by it.
Aloha
tp |
Galling is where either a softer metal of one fastener extrudes its material into surface pores (like spark plugs in aluminum heads)....and.....also in materials that are almost identical in surface hardness, porosity and metalurgy....like stainless nuts and bolts.....will extrude metal into each others pores.
Some people refer to it as welding them together. ...which is incorrect.
Fastenals point is a supposition....based on observation that higher temps cause the problem. That is partially correct....as heat causes surface pore expansion as well as fastener expanion.....but other variables are rolled versus cut threads, surface profile at the micron level....alloy and threadfit class. Ray |
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: Torque wrenches and anti-sieze |
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carbon galling on a plug is often because the plug is too long or is leaking exhaust gases. Using the silver colored "gets on you when you look at it" anti-seize that comes in the 3 generations can, I have never had a plug gall a thread. The same is true using heavy duty Moly Grease when anti-seize is not available. I have seen many plugs lock onto threads when not using it.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:46 pm Post subject: Re: Torque wrenches and anti-sieze |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| carbon galling on a plug is often because the plug is too long or is leaking exhaust gases. Using the silver colored "gets on you when you look at it" anti-seize that comes in the 3 generations can, I have never had a plug gall a thread. The same is true using heavy duty Moly Grease when anti-seize is not available. I have seen many plugs lock onto threads when not using it. |
The silver Permatex is pretty good for plug threads. Its aluminum/silica based. High in metals low in oil. Fairly low ratio of change to torque as long as its applied sparinyly and wiped off fo a thin film of silver....and yes.....it gets everywhere!
Moly grease will stop most ferrous bolts from galling ....but not most softer stainless alloys which require a true soft metal anti-sieze (if it was bigh moly content paste and not moly grease it would be different). Moly grease and lithium had some of the highest torque value changes. Ray |
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