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Skoolieman
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Joined: January 31, 2011
Posts: 573
Location: Chattanooga TN
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 Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:44 pm Post subject: Ignition switch and the generator light |
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Hi Guys,
on my '69 w/ 1600 dp doghouse motor and alternator conversion I started having some issues on a road trip a few weeks ago. about 6 hours into a 9 hour trip the generator light started glowing dimly. today I went out to troubleshoot and I found that the voltage coming into the ignition fuse is 12.11v (low due to not charging properly) however, on the other side of the fuse box and where the G light is i had only 11.8v. I am sure this is why the light is on but could this be related to the ignition switch? I have also been having days where when i turn the key the lights come on but it doesn't start or even turn over or click. Thanks for your help.
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'69 Westfalia Camper~Cassidy
1600dp with H30/31 carb 009 distributor and alternator conversion |
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51112
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switch and the generator light |
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| Skoolieman wrote: |
| could this be related to the ignition switch? |
The sure way to find out is compare power in and out at the switch leads, or connect the meter between the leads and see how many Mv it reads.
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kreemoweet
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Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 3897
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switch and the generator light |
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Yes, low voltage on wires powered thru the ignition switch could have something to do with the ignition switch. Please explain what you mean
by "voltage coming into the ignition fuse". The alt should be putting out 13.5 V or more, best measured at the battery + terminal (light load,
adequate rpm). If less than that, having a peek at the alt slip rings and brushes would be in order.
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Skoolieman
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2011
Posts: 573
Location: Chattanooga TN
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switch and the generator light |
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| kreemoweet wrote: |
Please explain what you mean
by "voltage coming into the ignition fuse". The alt should be putting out 13.5 V or more, best measured at the battery + terminal (light load,
adequate rpm). If less than that, having a peek at the alt slip rings and brushes would be in order. |
At the alternator I am getting 12.11v, same as the battery whether running or not. The G light is off with key on, engine off, but comes on when the engine is running. I checked the fuse box and I have higher voltage coming into the fuse box than I am getting on the back of the gauge cluster. I guess I am trying to figure out if the problem is the ignition switch is bad? I did replace the switch about 2 years ago already.
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'69 Westfalia Camper~Cassidy
1600dp with H30/31 carb 009 distributor and alternator conversion |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50332
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:33 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switch and the generator light |
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| With the engine running temporarily jump from the B+ terminal on the alternator to the D+ terminal where the blue wire going to the charge light hooks up. This should cause the alternator to energize and start putting out its rated voltage. |
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Skoolieman
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Joined: January 31, 2011
Posts: 573
Location: Chattanooga TN
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switch and the generator light |
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Thanks for the replies. i went out today and did some tests. First, if I ground the d+ the gen light is on with motor off and off when running as it should be but not charging. If I jumped the D+ to 15 on the coil while off It blew the fuse, but when connected while running it ignited the alternator and started charging 14.2v instantly. I could then disconnect the jumper cable and it would continue to charge until I shut it off, then same issue, G light off while key on,and G light on while motor running. I saw this thread pop up today and it seemed similiar, replacing the ignition switch was the answer.
Is this what you are thinking now?
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1600dp with H30/31 carb 009 distributor and alternator conversion |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switch and the generator light |
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| What fuse did you blow? |
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Skoolieman
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Joined: January 31, 2011
Posts: 573
Location: Chattanooga TN
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switch and the generator light |
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Not sure of the number but it's the first one that's always hot that supplies the ignition with 12v.
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1600dp with H30/31 carb 009 distributor and alternator conversion |
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kreemoweet
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Joined: March 13, 2008
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Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switch and the generator light |
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? The ignition switch is not supplied thru any fuse. It gets a constant battery hot (via the light switch) to terminal 30. Your gen/alt light
is probably wired wrong. The tab on the little metal area that the gen/alt light twists in is supposed to be supplied with a hot (black) wire
from the supply (i.e. unfused) side of fuse #2 (which is hot from the 15 terminal of ignition switch).
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Skoolieman
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2011
Posts: 573
Location: Chattanooga TN
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switch and the generator light |
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You are correct, the fuse that is blowing is #10. It is wired correctly as I hav3 driven thousands of miles with no issue, it just recently started happening and I suspect the ignition switch. I'm just trying to make sure, we are going camping on Friday and I want to fix it right and be done with it.
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51112
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switch and the generator light |
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| Skoolieman wrote: |
| It is wired correctly as I hav3 driven thousands of miles with no issue, . |
Just because it hasn't failed yet doesn't mean it's right, you really can't expect accurate help with wiring if someone's scrambled up the fuse box connections, the wire at the coil should not go through any fuse at all.
I suspect the wire to the back is on the wrong side of the fuse box.
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Tcash
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Skoolieman
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Joined: January 31, 2011
Posts: 573
Location: Chattanooga TN
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switch and the generator light |
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Thank you for all of the help so far. I did come home for lunch today and go through every wire behind the dash. The only issue I had was I had one 12v going to the fuse box (#9) and then to the light switch as opposed to through the light switch and then to the fuse box. Not sure if this would have any effect but I did make it right. The G light is now on when motor is off, but still flickering/dim when the motor is running. It is not charging in this state but I have verified that the alternator will put off 14.2v if I can excite D+ from the coil. I am seeing around 4v at the G light while the motor is running and the 12v+ that goes to the dash board is at 11.75v whereas the ignition is getting 11.95v. Again, low numbers because it is not charging. My concern is why I am losing .2v and is this the reason the alternator is not turning on?
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kreemoweet
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Joined: March 13, 2008
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Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switch and the generator light |
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The current consumed by the ignition coil/points/choke heater/carb cutoff valve/etc. will cause a voltage drop across the ignition switch. Only .2 V is not much at all,
and in fact far better than many experience. And it has nothing to do with your alternator's lack of output. It seems the voltage your D+ terminal should be getting from
the blue wire on your alt/gen warning lite is not making it thru the blue wire. Probably damaged/pinched/shorted/ or just has bad connectors. Or maybe something else,
because you're saying fuses are blowing when nothing concerned should be going thru any fuse (ignition, D+, gen light, etc.). #10 fuse on the '69 wiring diagram is
an unused accessory/radio location, so what you might have going on in your bus is anyone's guess.
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'68 bug: seized by the authorities
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:02 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switch and the generator light |
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| With the engine not running what is your voltage on the D+ terminal on the alternator and on both sides of the charge lamp? Check this with both the key in both the "ON" and "OFF" positions. |
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telford dorr
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switch and the generator light |
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| Quote: |
| I have verified that the alternator will put off 14.2v if I can excite D+ from the coil. I am seeing around 4v at the G light while the motor is running and the 12v+ that goes to the dash board is at 11.75v whereas the ignition is getting 11.95v. |
Question: if you excite the alternator by connecting the coil + terminal to D+, and then remove the jumper, does the alternator output stay at 14.2 volts, or does it drop back to 12? If it does drop back, then you have an alternator internal issue, most likely the small trio diodes. If it stays at 14.4, then stop the engine, restart, and use a test light in place of the wire jumper (coil + to D+). If the output again stays at 14.2, then it issue involves either the GEN lamp (size, type, connection quality), or something is preventing the lamp current from kickstarting the alternator. [That said, the 4 volts at the alternator D+ terminal should be more than enough to get the alternator going. I'm betting the trio diodes are bad...]
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Tcash
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Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switch and the generator light |
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| Skoolieman wrote: |
| If I jumped the D+ to 15 on the coil while off It blew the fuse, but when connected while running it ignited the alternator and started charging 14.2v instantly. I could then disconnect the jumper cable and it would continue to charge until I shut it off |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switch and the generator light |
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| telford dorr wrote: |
| [That said, the 4 volts at the alternator D+ terminal should be more than enough to get the alternator going. I'm betting the trio diodes are bad...] |
Yes, it seems likely a failed diode could be the cause. |
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Skoolieman
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Joined: January 31, 2011
Posts: 573
Location: Chattanooga TN
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:49 am Post subject: Re: Ignition switch and the generator light |
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| telford dorr wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I have verified that the alternator will put off 14.2v if I can excite D+ from the coil. I am seeing around 4v at the G light while the motor is running and the 12v+ that goes to the dash board is at 11.75v whereas the ignition is getting 11.95v. |
Question: if you excite the alternator by connecting the coil + terminal to D+, and then remove the jumper, does the alternator output stay at 14.2 volts, or does it drop back to 12? If it does drop back, then you have an alternator internal issue, most likely the small trio diodes. If it stays at 14.4, then stop the engine, restart, and use a test light in place of the wire jumper (coil + to D+). If the output again stays at 14.2, then it issue involves either the GEN lamp (size, type, connection quality), or something is preventing the lamp current from kickstarting the alternator. [That said, the 4 volts at the alternator D+ terminal should be
more than enough to get the alternator going. I'm betting the trio diodes are bad...] |
In this scenario it continues to charge around 14.2v once the jumper is connected. I am going to do as wild things suggested and test the voltage at d+ this afternoon. I am hoping at this point it's just a bad blue wire. Thanks for all the input so far.
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Skoolieman
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Joined: January 31, 2011
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Location: Chattanooga TN
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switch and the generator light |
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Ok guys, I skipped out of work and spent the afternoon with the bus. Here are the results of the tests.
Key off-no power at alternator or behind dash
Key on, around 5 volts at the dash light and right around the same at the alternator. Around a .2v drop which I am guessing is normal.
I took the whole cluster apart and cleaned all of my grounds and contacts just in case.
Same scenario where if I jump the alternator I can get it to charge even once the jumper is unhooked, but if I turn off the motor I have to jump the alternator again.
I'm still struggling with the light, sometimes it is on and sometimes it is off when the key is on but the motor is off.
Before we go too far, I know a bad diode can affect this, but could that be the issue if I can get it to charge with the jumper?
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