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heiko910
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2013
Posts: 221
Location: Gardnerville, NV
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 Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:48 am Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 |
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| surfwagonorangevw wrote: |
Colin asked -- Are the 10mm rockers identical castings to the 8mm?
I have both in the garage and will take a look , imagine they will be very close . |
I just paid for a shipment. I going to have 12 sets/ 11 sets available since one set is for sure gonna go into my bus.
let me know if you know anyone who is interested. |
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tristessa
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2004
Posts: 3992
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 |
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| heiko910 wrote: |
| surfwagonorangevw wrote: |
Colin asked -- Are the 10mm rockers identical castings to the 8mm?
I have both in the garage and will take a look , imagine they will be very close . |
where are you getting the 10 mm once from. Have you actually run them in a type 4 engine? |
I think they're referring to the rocker arms themselves, not the adjusting screws. |
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heiko910
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2013
Posts: 221
Location: Gardnerville, NV
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 |
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| tristessa wrote: |
| heiko910 wrote: |
| surfwagonorangevw wrote: |
Colin asked -- Are the 10mm rockers identical castings to the 8mm?
I have both in the garage and will take a look , imagine they will be very close . |
where are you getting the 10 mm once from. Have you actually run them in a type 4 engine? |
I think they're referring to the rocker arms themselves, not the adjusting screws. |
oh, yeah you are right. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 |
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| heiko910 wrote: |
| tristessa wrote: |
| heiko910 wrote: |
| surfwagonorangevw wrote: |
Colin asked -- Are the 10mm rockers identical castings to the 8mm?
I have both in the garage and will take a look , imagine they will be very close . |
where are you getting the 10 mm once from. Have you actually run them in a type 4 engine? |
I think they're referring to the rocker arms themselves, not the adjusting screws. |
oh, yeah you are right. |
I will say that I think the 8mm and 10mm Type 4 rockers are identical excepting for their thread size, but don't have a pair available to check at this moment though. |
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surfwagonorangevw
Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2013
Posts: 111
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:46 am Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 |
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I did do a visual comparison slipping them on to a shaft together .
I found as well as the obvious thread size difference , the portion of the rocker arm casting that contains the adjuster is of a larger diameter to accept the 10 mm thread but appears to maintain the same geometry as the 8mm rocker arm . In other words as long as the 10 mm swivel adjusters are the same length as the Porsche 911 ones , the grinding required for functioning clearance should be the same . |
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heiko910
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2013
Posts: 221
Location: Gardnerville, NV
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:05 am Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 |
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| surfwagonorangevw wrote: |
I did do a visual comparison slipping them on to a shaft together .
I found as well as the obvious thread size difference , the portion of the rocker arm casting that contains the adjuster is of a larger diameter to accept the 10 mm thread but appears to maintain the same geometry as the 8mm rocker arm . In other words as long as the 10 mm swivel adjusters are the same length as the Porsche 911 ones , the grinding required for functioning clearance should be the same . |
Thanks for checking that for us. That will take the guesswork out of it.
, Heiko |
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Amskeptic
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2002
Posts: 8568
Location: All Across The Country
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 |
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I was concerned with any changes in the oil drilling.
The rocker oil passages are drilled straight through to the bushing bore, then weld-plugged at the ends.
If they are different castings (larger at the screw end for the 10mm bore) then make sure that .060" surfacing of the underside of the rocker does not approach the drilling. Based on the photographs, it looks like there is room to spare.
Colin
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heiko910
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2013
Posts: 221
Location: Gardnerville, NV
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:49 am Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 |
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| Amskeptic wrote: |
I was concerned with any changes in the oil drilling.
The rocker oil passages are drilled straight through to the bushing bore, then weld-plugged at the ends.
If they are different castings (larger at the screw end for the 10mm bore) then make sure that .060" surfacing of the underside of the rocker does not approach the drilling. Based on the photographs, it looks like there is room to spare.
Colin |
Good point,
I have come across another method of dealing with the extra length of those swivel foot adjusters. Somewhere here on thesamba a guy mentioned that he uses one of these
he puts the die grinder into a drill press puts the rocker arm into a vice and then sinks this die grinder only deep enough to make space for the swivel foot.
The ball should have the same or larger diameter as the swivel foot itself to make enough room. That way you have the maximum amount of material left for strength.
I will try this first and see if it actually works, if not i will go back to grinding.
I will post pictures. |
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mango-smoothie
Samba Member
Joined: April 10, 2013
Posts: 105
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 |
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| i used a grinder wheel to shave my rocker arms down a little for clearance. been running them that way for years. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 |
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| heiko910 wrote: |
| Amskeptic wrote: |
I was concerned with any changes in the oil drilling.
The rocker oil passages are drilled straight through to the bushing bore, then weld-plugged at the ends.
If they are different castings (larger at the screw end for the 10mm bore) then make sure that .060" surfacing of the underside of the rocker does not approach the drilling. Based on the photographs, it looks like there is room to spare.
Colin |
Good point,
I have come across another method of dealing with the extra length of those swivel foot adjusters. Somewhere here on thesamba a guy mentioned that he uses one of these
he puts the die grinder into a drill press puts the rocker arm into a vice and then sinks this die grinder only deep enough to make space for the swivel foot.
The ball should have the same or larger diameter as the swivel foot itself to make enough room. That way you have the maximum amount of material left for strength.
I will try this first and see if it actually works, if not i will go back to grinding.
I will post pictures. |
This is how I have done it. No pics though. |
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Hobug 
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2004
Posts: 220
Location: Bishop, GA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 |
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I am interested in a set. PM sent.
_________________
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76 Westy
69 Squareback auto
72 Super
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heiko910
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2013
Posts: 221
Location: Gardnerville, NV
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| heiko910 wrote: |
| Amskeptic wrote: |
I was concerned with any changes in the oil drilling.
The rocker oil passages are drilled straight through to the bushing bore, then weld-plugged at the ends.
If they are different castings (larger at the screw end for the 10mm bore) then make sure that .060" surfacing of the underside of the rocker does not approach the drilling. Based on the photographs, it looks like there is room to spare.
Colin |
Good point,
I have come across another method of dealing with the extra length of those swivel foot adjusters. Somewhere here on thesamba a guy mentioned that he uses one of these
he puts the die grinder into a drill press puts the rocker arm into a vice and then sinks this die grinder only deep enough to make space for the swivel foot.
The ball should have the same or larger diameter as the swivel foot itself to make enough room. That way you have the maximum amount of material left for strength.
I will try this first and see if it actually works, if not i will go back to grinding.
I will post pictures. |
This is how I have done it. No pics though. |
Did you have to grind/counter sink and shims under rocker stands and custom length push rods? Or did you get away with just grinding/ counter sinking?
I am getting ready for the test install. I ordered rocker stand shim in three thicknesses as well just to be prepared. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 |
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| heiko910 wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| heiko910 wrote: |
| Amskeptic wrote: |
I was concerned with any changes in the oil drilling.
The rocker oil passages are drilled straight through to the bushing bore, then weld-plugged at the ends.
If they are different castings (larger at the screw end for the 10mm bore) then make sure that .060" surfacing of the underside of the rocker does not approach the drilling. Based on the photographs, it looks like there is room to spare.
Colin |
Good point,
I have come across another method of dealing with the extra length of those swivel foot adjusters. Somewhere here on thesamba a guy mentioned that he uses one of these
he puts the die grinder into a drill press puts the rocker arm into a vice and then sinks this die grinder only deep enough to make space for the swivel foot.
The ball should have the same or larger diameter as the swivel foot itself to make enough room. That way you have the maximum amount of material left for strength.
I will try this first and see if it actually works, if not i will go back to grinding.
I will post pictures. |
This is how I have done it. No pics though. |
Did you have to grind/counter sink and shims under rocker stands and custom length push rods? Or did you get away with just grinding/ counter sinking?
I am getting ready for the test install. I ordered rocker stand shim in three thicknesses as well just to be prepared. |
I first ground away about 0.010" off the rocker to give a flat surface to the underside of the adjusting screw bore and then hollowed out the underside of the bore using a spherical grinding wheel on a Dremel. IIRC overall I removed somewhat more than 0.060" of an inch by the time I had a couple of extra threads on the adjuster showing underneath the rocker.
I think it would be reasonable to use shims under the rocker stands in order to cut down on the amount of material one would have to remove.
One could also remove some material from the end of the valve stem especially if their stems have been worn concave at this point. |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12721
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
I think it would be reasonable to use shims under the rocker stands in order to cut down on the amount of material one would have to remove.
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I did this on my T1 engine, so I'm not sure if it applies here. But we should be aware of shim packs that are being sold that are significantly smaller than the rocker pedestals. If you need shims, use them, and make sure they support 100% of the assembly.
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Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
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heiko910
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2013
Posts: 221
Location: Gardnerville, NV
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| heiko910 wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| heiko910 wrote: |
| Amskeptic wrote: |
I was concerned with any changes in the oil drilling.
The rocker oil passages are drilled straight through to the bushing bore, then weld-plugged at the ends.
If they are different castings (larger at the screw end for the 10mm bore) then make sure that .060" surfacing of the underside of the rocker does not approach the drilling. Based on the photographs, it looks like there is room to spare.
Colin |
Good point,
I have come across another method of dealing with the extra length of those swivel foot adjusters. Somewhere here on thesamba a guy mentioned that he uses one of these
he puts the die grinder into a drill press puts the rocker arm into a vice and then sinks this die grinder only deep enough to make space for the swivel foot.
The ball should have the same or larger diameter as the swivel foot itself to make enough room. That way you have the maximum amount of material left for strength.
I will try this first and see if it actually works, if not i will go back to grinding.
I will post pictures. |
This is how I have done it. No pics though. |
Did you have to grind/counter sink and shims under rocker stands and custom length push rods? Or did you get away with just grinding/ counter sinking?
I am getting ready for the test install. I ordered rocker stand shim in three thicknesses as well just to be prepared. |
I first ground away about 0.010" off the rocker to give a flat surface to the underside of the adjusting screw bore and then hollowed out the underside of the bore using a spherical grinding wheel on a Dremel. IIRC overall I removed somewhat more than 0.060" of an inch by the time I had a couple of extra threads on the adjuster showing underneath the rocker.
I think it would be reasonable to use shims under the rocker stands in order to cut down on the amount of material one would have to remove.
One could also remove some material from the end of the valve stem especially if their stems have been worn concave at this point. |
Thanks |
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heiko910
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2013
Posts: 221
Location: Gardnerville, NV
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
I think it would be reasonable to use shims under the rocker stands in order to cut down on the amount of material one would have to remove.
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I did this on my T1 engine, so I'm not sure if it applies here. But we should be aware of shim packs that are being sold that are significantly smaller than the rocker pedestals. If you need shims, use them, and make sure they support 100% of the assembly. |
thanks for that advice |
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heiko910
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2013
Posts: 221
Location: Gardnerville, NV
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:22 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 |
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Hey guys,
just a quick update. I ordered a bulk of adjusters about a week ago and I am now waiting for delivery. I am also getting ready for the test install. I will update several things at the same time. I will change the rocker assembly slightly. I will get rid of the spring that is placed in between each pair of rockers and install a solid spacer (bought at www.Type4 store.com). I will replace the rocker shaft studs (bought at www.europeanmotorworks.com). The originals have a M10x1.5 (10mm) thread on the end that goes into the cylinder head and a M7 (7mm) thread on the end that the rocker shafts is mounted onto. The originals are known to strip and M7 is not really a common since for nuts and bolts anyways.
The new once are M10x1.5 on one end and M8x1.25 (8mm) on the other end. Both threads are standard course Metric and nuts and washers can be had almost anywhere just remember to buy the class 10 (higher quality) nuts. First I thought of using class 10 nylock nuts but nylock and heat from a type 4 cylinder head is most likely not compatible so I went with M8 class 10 nuts and nice carbon steel wave washers. I also ordered jam nuts for the new swivel foot adjusters and got a set of shims that I can put under the rocker shaft mounts to compensate for any problems with the valve train geometry (those are also from www.europeanmotorworks.com).
I will try to take pictures every step of the way and maybe even make a video if I can. As soon as I receive the swivel foot adjusters I will send out PMs with total price including shipping for a set of 8 adjusters and my paypal contact information to all those who have already PM me about being interested in buying a set. If you are interested just PM me here on thesamba and I will add you to the list. I don't know the total price for a set yet because I have to check on shipping options but should be between $80-85 including shipping.
With those you won't have to find parts from 1.7l type 4. You can just keep your own rockers (1.8l or 2.0l) that run 10mm adjusters and after slightly modifying them add those swivel foot adjusters to the rocker set up.
If you have any questions just let me know.
,Heiko |
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 |
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This is just a beautiful thing.. I really hope it works out.
Hunting for 1.7 rockers and forking $$$ for the p-car adjusters is getting arduous.
Call me crazy, but, we really need to know the quality is there with these parts before getting too excited.
As you know, there are a few parts out there where the quality is a bit substandard.
No, really.. I'm serious..  
One good thing is that the larger size should make them a bit stronger?
Not really sure what kind of burr in a Dremel you guys used, but it must be some super material I have never heard of before.
My big bench grinder has a hard time (sorry pun) with grinding those rockers down the .060" or so!
Those rockers are made of some _hard_ stuff, and you will also notice by their color their heat-treat..
Another trick I have done is to file a small groove in the rocker's threads to allow a trickle (stream) of oil get right into the ball of that rocker swivel.
FWIW.
Really hope this all works out.
Stoked to see something making the type 4 easier/better to run, vs. the other way around! 
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Amskeptic
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2002
Posts: 8568
Location: All Across The Country
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| Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 |
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| heiko910 wrote: |
Hey guys,
I will replace the rocker shaft studs (bought at www.europeanmotorworks.com). The originals have a M10x1.5 (10mm) thread on the end that goes into the cylinder head and a M7 (7mm) thread on the end that the rocker shafts is mounted onto. The originals are known to strip |
Do you know why? Because the factory uses them as "fuses" so you don't overtighten the rocker supports and rip the heads into junk at the first overheat.
Colin
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: Solution!!! found 10mm swivel foot adjusters for type 4 |
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| Clatter wrote: |
This is just a beautiful thing.. I really hope it works out.
Hunting for 1.7 rockers and forking $$$ for the p-car adjusters is getting arduous.
Call me crazy, but, we really need to know the quality is there with these parts before getting too excited.
As you know, there are a few parts out there where the quality is a bit substandard.
No, really.. I'm serious..
One good thing is that the larger size should make them a bit stronger?
Not really sure what kind of burr in a Dremel you guys used, but it must be some super material I have never heard of before.
My big bench grinder has a hard time (sorry pun) with grinding those rockers down the .060" or so!
Those rockers are made of some _hard_ stuff, and you will also notice by their color their heat-treat..
Another trick I have done is to file a small groove in the rocker's threads to allow a trickle (stream) of oil get right into the ball of that rocker swivel.
FWIW.
Really hope this all works out.
Stoked to see something making the type 4 easier/better to run, vs. the other way around! |
I pretty much wasted out one ball shaped Dremel brand stone doing a set. Can't say how a carbide bit would work.
If you take 0.030" off the end of the valve stem and then use a 0.015" shim under the rocker supports you are going to be pretty close and not have to do much grinding to the rocker itself. This should have very little effect on the rocker geometry. Taking that much off the end of the valve stem is going to make the end of the stem sit down inside of the retainers a bit and thus make it a bit awkward to get a feeler gauge in there, one would probably have to bend their feeler gauge a bit to get it to work and maybe grind the edges down. |
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