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My 412 these days..
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:04 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

ClassicCamper wrote:
Need some quick assistance re: front seats. Hard to tell from diagram.

1) Where shoud the seat back adjuster be oriented? Facing E- brake or the door itself?

2) Same question applies to seat forward tilt lever on side of backrest?

3) Where should the 2 adjustment levers that stick out of the plastic bottom skirt (on seat bottom) face? Again, toward e brake or face car door?

Ugh....Need some good karma.

Thanks all!


The knob for reclining the back goes on the E-brake side and the lever for flipping the back forward to get into the back seat faces toward the door.

The slider knobs on the plastic skirt go on the e-brake side. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

I received a nice gift in the mail today....

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My better half ceases to amaze me. This is my first NOS part that I was ecstatic to receive. Can't wait until I set this up!

Really excited. A lot of good things coming together.
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1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:34 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Nice!
Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:55 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

** A lot of updates to post, I'll try to get through it all.

First, its important to pass along my learnings and feedback regarding my 412 and the respective build thus far. It may help other people purchasing these cars. First off, I purchased this car last year for $3,000. If you look at the first page of this thread, that is pretty much what it looked like. The only difference is the photo was taken after I painted the rims and threw about 3 coats of wax on it.

I overpaid for this car.

Its not the PO's fault, he didn't know how rare this vehicle is, nor the scarcity of parts. I would have REALLY overpaid for the car if Ray G. didn't help me out.

Here is a summary of what I bought.

The good:

1) Solid body, a few rust areas under the fenders and floor pans.
2) New tires

The bad:

1) Tired engine, not long for this world.
2) Transmission slipping
3) Fuel injection system mis-matched and missing key parts. (MPS, harness, bad fuel pump)
4) Interior completely shot. Front seats are actually 2 passenger seats cobbled together.
5) Brake system shot
6) Front end needs work
7) Most of heater missing. (BA4)

That's it in a nutshell. I'm sure if you are reading this, you know that most of the parts need to be recycled or fabricated. There are probably 50-60 parts (mostly smalls) that are transferrable from the more mass produced VW's. I learned this through the forums as well as the fact that I own each type of VW. (except T3). I don't have a shitload of money, I fund these projects by buying and selling ACVW parts. When that dries up, my project(s) come to a halt. It's interesting and a great hobby. I equate it to being a hedge fund broker in VW parts. its often laughable what some of the folks sell T4 parts for. Thats another topic. On to the good stuff...

First, I was contemplating selling this car several times. One individual in particular, Ray Greenwood stuck by me with encouraging, detailed and well thought-out help. We are both purists, so I appreciate learning from him. I'm pretty sure that if one was interested in creating a T4 Service manual affordable for the masses, sorting and printing RG's posts would more likely than not get us 80% of the way there.

As I approach the half-way point of this journey (well, except for waiting until the engine gives out) I thought it important to pass along my findings and experience. If I helped one owner or potential owner, I consider this ongoing topic a success!

More to come....
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1978 SB Vert
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ClassicCamper
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:59 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Here is the latest and greatest.

This is the hatch that I wisely backed-up into my workbench vice. One of my more memorable experiences.

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I'm glad to report, that it had a facelift:

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Man, I do such great body work.












Yea right. It was actually done by replacing dented hatch with this (thanks BUSBOSS):

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My recent paint job is deceiving as it looks different from the original. Well, the color with the dent in it is a respray. The original Marathon Blue is visible when you open the front hood and look at the bottom of it. The new paint matches perfectly.

I went back to DuPont and had the two stage paint mixed. That was not a cheap proposition. After its application, it is amazing how much the new paint now matches the unmolested, original sections of paint (behind the door panels, jambs, etc..)

Aesthetically, the car is starting to make progress. I hope you agree!
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1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert


Last edited by ClassicCamper on Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:00 am; edited 2 times in total
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:06 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Very nic3 work!

About the color on "our" cars......L96M....Marathon Blue.....is a VERY difficult color. Its not the mixing that is the issue. Anyone from DuPont to PPG to Sherwin Williams can mix it.

The problem is that its made of several colors. While that is not unique.....its issues is that technically it has a fair portion of green in it.....AND.....its not just a color made of several paints using PIGMENTS. It uses at least one if not two....metallic colorants.

The L96M is technically a blue "taupe". This means that it can be metameric by nature. It changes color in different light wavelengths.....and has differen degrees of change based on gloss level. There will be times of the day in the sunlight when this color will look like a "champagne" green.....and other times when it looks like a brilliant sky blue metallic. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Anyone know where I could get seals for the rear tail lights to the body of the car? Mine fell apart after I removed them.
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1978 SB Vert
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:16 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

ClassicCamper wrote:
Anyone know where I could get seals for the rear tail lights to the body of the car? Mine fell apart after I removed them.


Iy you mean the cord type seal in the groove around the light perimeter.....which may be front turn signal marker light assembly only.....I have successfully used o-ring cord stock joind by RTV and its virtually impossible to tell from factory. The rear on the 411 and early 412....are thicker.

I made several sets long ago cut from closed cell neoprene (chloroprene actually) sheet about 1/2" thick. They were carefully cut with a stencil and long razor knife.

Then I rolled on several layers of black high temp RTV. ...thinned with silicone diluent to the outer visible edges only. The diluejt makes it dry very slow. With a little heat in the first hour...maybe 150° F....it will dry in a day. Then rioll in a second or third coat. The diluent allows the silicone to flow out into a wmoth sheet. It seals the cells on the outer edge and makes it look like a factory molded gasket. They last for about as long as factory and seal well. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:21 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Hi Ray, I think we are talking about two different animals. The sets I'm looking for are the seals that are between the rear tail light bulb holder unit. (Heavy grayish pot-metal) and the actual body of the car.

Hope that clears up the confusion. Your feedback about lens to body is duly noted, and a great fix too..
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1978 SB Vert
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:01 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

ClassicCamper wrote:
Hi Ray, I think we are talking about two different animals. The sets I'm looking for are the seals that are between the rear tail light bulb holder unit. (Heavy grayish pot-metal) and the actual body of the car.

Hope that clears up the confusion. Your feedback about lens to body is duly noted, and a great fix too..


Those are the ones I am talking about. They are a little different though between 411 and early 412....and late 412. I will have to check the book...yours may be quite a bjt different.

On my sedan....the gaskets or seals are fairly thick, black seals. They go between the pot metal housing and the body. I will see if I can get a picture when I get home. Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:15 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Starting to put her back together is slow but sure.

Car never had nice aluminum on channel, so I added that today. Progress is slowwwww

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Gunked up door latches came out exceptionq,
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Slight spray of WD to prevent rust. Prep truc
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1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:51 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Some assembly pics:


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After some back and forth with the paint shop, I'm pleased with the overall job. The key to this was delivering the car preppd prior to paint. Definitely expect to do plenty of prep prior to allowing them to even attempt to paint. The car had such a dull finish on it, that it did not take an idiot to figure out that if all the dimples and wavy areas were not banged out and/or welded, the imperfections will become highly visible when the high gloss paint gets applied.

I'm glad that part is done.

Next step: Install aluminum trim around the tire arches. However, and for the life of me...I cannot find the proper fasteners to hold them on. I keep,hitting dead ends, so any help would be beyond awesome as Im stuck there.

So... Moved on to seats. And this is a trainwreck maximus. As I start to learn more about these ingenius contraptions, they are trying to drag me down, but I'm not letting that happen.

Here's the state of the seats:

1) A P/O put two passenger seats up front. Therefore the seat tilt mech correctly faces the passenger as she or he opens passenger side door. Simply lift the mech on back rest, and its easy going to the back seat. Problem: the 412 seats are a no-go. The are shot, rusted, damaged, seized and horrible. The sear covers however, are navy blue with a lighter blue center strip. Covers are in perfect shape and heavy duty. Had a bunch of offers to buy them, so to be fair, I'll just throw them out on the samba.

2) I probably overspent BUT was able to get a set of beat to hell front seats (on is actually a passenger seat, the otherna driver. BIG MISTAKE, Although I asked, I should have asked 20 more times to ensure that the seats were a direct fit for a 73 412 Wagon. What did I get??

A set of 71 411 (4) door sedan seats. Chrome trimming was vastly different. Here is what Inhad tomcontend with to make it work, Perhaps this discertation will help out another vw pal:

1) 4 door sedan seats will not be fully functional in a Variant. Why? Because there is no side latch mechanism to tilt seat forward, making it a hard proposition tomget into the rear seat. However, the 411 seat backs were in perfecr condition. How I fixed this: i cut off the lift mech from the rusty 412 seat back and welded them on the the more desireable 411 seat backs. Next, I retrofitted the 411 seat botttoms to receive the newly improved 411 seat backs. I found some old bicycle cable and repurposed it to help lift the tilt release mech by connecting it to the newly welded lift/latch mechanism.

2) yip- I'm a die-hard purist, so I decided to use the 411 seat bottoms which were nearly identical, less a ton of rust.
-----------
1) I want to reconnect the starter cut off switch logic, so car wont start with seatbelts unfastened. Wiring is tricky, but worth the labor. I did it on two of my other ACVWs as well. Its a little complex to initially wire, but once ocompleted, its robust, reliable and safe.

2) This exercise gave me an unintended yet welcome addition. Apparently the 4 door sedans had a dial on the sides of the fromt seats, allowing the driver to dial in his or her desired back rest height. I'm loving that.

3) final addition I want are seat warmers. Ill just install the heating pads below the seat cover, providing for a nice warm ride. Further, I updated the charging system, so I'm hoping to have plenty of juicentomkeepmthem running.

Here are the beauties:


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The final thing you need to be cognizant of is that the front "Y" bar that holds the seat up im the fromt to the body of the car is a much thinner gage metal than in a 412. the excellent news here is that removing the smaller gage support from the 411 seat and replqcing it with the stronger type 4 is a matter of clicking the side lever of the 412 seat to easily eject the heavy duty support. Next, click the same lever on the 411 seat, and the plunger will open and allow the thicker gage to slip on with no problems. This will completely eliminate rocky and unstable seats, they'll be tight as a drum. More to come and ice cream to anyone who can get me a real nice size (well the correct size) tail light body to vehicle body seals in fairly good shape. Thanks for reading.. More to come.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:56 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Very Happy you should have aske me! Yes.....the two door sedan and wagon are those which have the tilt mechanism....no need for it on a four door.

The paint looks excellent.

As noted......tell me how many of the small speed nuts you need for you wheel arch trim. I may have enough.

The part # is 411 853 731. More than a few sites I just found say they have it. It went on some Audi and Skoda as well. The prices range from 53 cents to 72 cents each and the book says 32 are needed.

It also notes tht a spacer bush is needed. Fuzzy memory on that...but the part # is 411 853 727....again 32 required.
Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:27 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Quote:
Ray Greenwood wrote:
you should have asked me! yes....the two door sedan and wagon are those which have the tilt mechanism....no need for it on a four door.


Don't I hassle you enough? Now I have a large selection of spare front seat parts, speak up if you need anything. I'll see what I can do.

Quote:
The paint looks excellent.

I'm a believer. I took your transcript to Maaco detailing your wrap on how to actually apply this type of paint. It took a few times, but Maaco made good on their deal.


I went from this:

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To tnis:

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(Just above the headlights and on the hood, it looks dented, far from it....it's simply the way the light is hitting it.

No more different shades of Marathon Blue. The color now matches the trunk, under the hood, areas where carpet has been removed.

Beyond thrilled. Good call to try out Maaco, Ray. Would have never thought they had the body work skills AND the multistage technique to apply this paint.

Quote:


As noted......tell me how many of the small speed nuts you need for you wheel arch trim. I may have enough.

The part # is 411 853 731. More than a few sites I just found say they have it. It went on some Audi and Skoda as well. The prices range from 53 cents to 72 cents each and the book says 32 are needed.

It also notes tht a spacer bush is needed. Fuzzy memory on that...but the part # is 411 853 727....again 32 required.


Sure thing, I definitely need 32 of the small speed nuts (411 853 731) and the same quantity of spacers. (411 853 727). Please PM me with your findings and I'll square up with you.

I'm totally excited about getting these speed nuts, and potentially the spacers I've been in a rut...... striking out with parts left and right. - Ron
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:55 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

I just went through my stash. I only have 23 of these parts.

Ok....they are not too hard to find if you know what they are called.

They are called "self locking Pal nuts"

The size measures a stud hole of .011". The outside hex is 9mm. It varies to about 8.5mm because the outer hex is domed. The nylon spacers underneath are nothing special and can be made from nylon sleeve bushings. I will post the height later. I have pictures as well.

The bushings are simply used to hold the nuts up off the metal surface. This is needed because the nut would be sitting in a valley of the sheet metal roll of the fender and would not be able to tighten down.

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Sorry...this is a REALLY crude sketch. But....the trim (red) with the mounted pins go through teh roll on the edge of the wheel arch (black). The nylon spacer simply fits inside of these hollow dome shaped sheet metal nuts because otherwise the nuts would only contact on two edges in the rounded valley of the wheel arch.

Any 1/8" ID nylon spacer with about 1/4" maximum OD will do fine. I will get and exact height but its about 3/16".

Here is one place:
http://www.indexfasteners.com/Browse.aspx/@/Palnut

Notice they are also an Auveco dealer...but there are literally hundreds of companies that sell Palnuts

http://www.indexfasteners.com/Resources/pdf/Palnut_Combined.pdf

In this catalog from the above link the nuts you are looking for are the ones in the picture on the far left on the first page of the catalog.

The size should be a 6/32. Scroll down to page 7...under threaded applications. Ours look closest to style DO on the left side of the page.

Any of the DO part #'s would work but the DO 632612 which is a 3/8" outer hex (9.5mm) is closest to what we have.

Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:46 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Ray Greenwood wrote:
Quote:
The size should be a 6/32. Scroll down to page 7...under threaded applications. Ours look closest to style DO on the left side of the page. Any of the DO part #'s would work but DO 632612 which is a 3/8" outer hex (9.5mm) is closest to what we have


This helped a lot. I cross referenced your recommended nut as closely as possible and found these:

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=120978207789

Will these self locking Pal nuts work for our application? If so, I'm ready to move on to the nylon spacer quest.

Ron
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:03 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

ClassicCamper wrote:
Ray Greenwood wrote:
Quote:
The size should be a 6/32. Scroll down to page 7...under threaded applications. Ours look closest to style DO on the left side of the page. Any of the DO part #'s would work but DO 632612 which is a 3/8" outer hex (9.5mm) is closest to what we have


This helped a lot. I cross referenced your recommended nut as closely as possible and found these:

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=120978207789

Will these self locking Pal nuts work for our application? If so, I'm ready to move on to the nylon spacer quest.

Ron


Should be just fne. Let me do kne more quick measurement in the am of the pins ok n the trim. Ray
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:04 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

I received the PAL nuts for the wheel arch molding from Auveco today. I matched up RG's dimensions from the diagram a few posts back. They fit perfectly. If you need a link/info where to order, drop me an inbox message. I'm in a brief holding pattern for the nylon buffer/spacers to arrive. So, I can start on another project. That said...

I think I came up with an encouraging way to overcome the NLA rear tail light housing to car body seals. Cool

About 2 years back, I completed my '74 SB resto. Recently, I was sorting through my stockpile of parts and stumbled across a 73-79 Beetle tail light to body seal:
Uj
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Here is a closer shot:

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It has a U-channel profile. I decided to snip it so it's no longer a contiguous circle and it and push it on to the T4 tail light housing for shits 'n giggles. To my surprise, it slid on very snug. Further, the channel in the T1 seal is the exact depth! I was able to validate this as the T1 seal lined up perfectly with the impression left by the old one:


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It appears slightly wavy in spots, but that's because I have not finished removing the clumps of sealant that one of the POs applied. Another cool thing is that the T1 seal contours very nicely to the bulb housing's profile, and that's with no adhesive or tack cement.

The only issue is that it is going to require two seals per side. So, I'm going to cut and join them with a suitable weatherstrip adhesive. The seals will be joined in least conspicuous places. I held up the housing to the car with the seal pushed on. I was pretty amazed how well it contoured and how flush it was to the body:

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My favoite part is that it's going to look really sharp when attached and mounted. For now, I'll have to give you an idea what its going to look like:




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The picture does not do it justice. Can't wait until its fastened snugly.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:25 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

So... I finally took the dash out:

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Therer are so many wiring schemes in there it is unreal. This should be fune.

** Now rhe hard part**

*I don't have a headlight switch*

I'm no longer going to use the toggle switch PO hooked up. I need a T4 switch. Can anyone give me some pointers where I can even begin to look.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

What wires do you have going to the headlight switch?.....also check my spread a while back on the headlight switches and you can pull the part # from there.

Ray
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