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My 412 these days..
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:29 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Very nice! Ray
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ClassicCamper
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:52 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Lazy night ---

I soaked the rear air inlets in a Tire-Shine type solution for about a week (a little trick I came up with while restoring my Westy). They were dried out to the point where the insides looked almost gray. I'm pleased with the result:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Upon installing, I took a guess and oriented the scoop side toward the the rear of the car and the solid part faces the front. Here's a gratuitous look of the install:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Next on the agenda: The tail light wiring. There are so many splices and additional wires in there. Shocked Some of it has been replaced with speaker wire. I'm hard core when it comes to wiring; the rats nest is going to be replaced with the correct color wires. Going to be interesting.

One other item.... If anyone has a spare plastic 'cup(s)' that receive the pins on the 412 insignia on the rear hatch, please PM me. More to come..
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1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:24 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Take a picture of the pins on the logo mounting cups.

There were two different pins diameters and designs. Some had the larger diameter pin with longitudinal gripper ribs on the pins. The others were slightly smaller diameter pins that are smooth.

One thing I found years ago.....in replacing the cups on mine.....is that type the cups that are available from places like west coast metric.....are really designed for the smaller diameter smooth pins.
Also.....some of them do not fit tightly in the panel holes in the trunk and rear hood. Added with the small pin diameter......the small pin did not expand the plastic cup very well.

So....the plastic cup did not expand very well on the OD. This caused it both to not seal very well in the hole in the sheet metal to seal out water....and also to make the fit of the logo not very tight against the sheet metal.

This was somewhat of an issue with the moldijg of some of these parts. Back in the day.....pre internet.....all of these parts I bought were west coast metric. I went through about five packs to get one set that fit....so I know it was molding variation.

I was just thinking about these parts yesterday......because along with making the fender triming spacers......I knew you would ask Wink .

I think I can make some better ones from polyethylene rod. I will post a couple of pictures later. Ray

EDIT:
Here are what the ones from WCM look like. I will take one out and measure later.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Ray
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ClassicCamper
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:47 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

I replied with pics here:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6...highlight=
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:47 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Been diving into the dashboard (or lack thereof). The area behind dash is in much worse shape that I anticipated and it's a struggle. Confused

The first thing that really needed work was the air blower assembly. This is the first area that I found a rust problem. The cavity where the blower motor sits in had small rust holes on the bottom, which would allow water to find its way into the cabin. Once I got the leaves and crap out of it, i was able to get it down to bare metal, apply POR 15 inside and out and fiberglass the bottom of the box. I'm not the best metal worker, but can work with fiberglass. Now, water can't come into the passenger compartment. I molded and sanded the glass work to look like nothing was done and touched up the outside of the box (just under where vent levers are) with an airbrush and Marathonblau metalic wannabe paint. This turned out to be overkill as I forgot I'm mounting the A/C evaporator there.

The fan contraption was a royal pain in the ass. The blower motor was siezed and the rubber bushings that held the fan in place were long gone. As were the delicate one-way flaps on either side of the fan mounting plate.

I should have taken pics, but here is what I did and will be glad to send anyone who needs it a mini 'refurb kit':

1) Fan bushing was siezed where shaft enters front of motor. I fixed this with 3-5 applications of penetrating oil applied to the shaft entry point over a 3 day period. 'Ran' motor by attaching a drill to it and rotated forward and backward, working oil in. Attached motor to 12V and ran for about 20 mins per speed. Excess oil seemed to burn off.

2) Motor needed to be reattached to mount plate. It was just hanging loose in the cavity when I removed the assembly. I fabricated new mounts by drilling out 6 rubber O-rings to accomodate 3 new 10mm bolts, 6 washers and the nuts. The O-rings were then placed between the motor and the body of the car to prevent vibration noise. Getting the nuts on is very tricky. You need to stick your finger in the non-return flap hole and gently hold the nut while tightening the bolt. Be careful... if you drop the nut, you need to remove the assembly, fish it out of the airbox and start over.

3) Using a home made template, I refabricated the one-way flaps with a very light guage rubber sheet. It's important to get a fairly good seal, as you don't want air being drawn in the wrong direction! I used good old fashioned duct tape to form the flap 'hinge'.

4) Once the motor, plate and one way flap assembly was reattached to the body of the car with the 3 10mm bolts, 6 washers, 6 O-rings and nuts, I applied new foam weatherstripping to the air distribution/blower housing and lubricated all of the flapper pivot points.

5) Mounted the housing back over the fan, checked the sealing points, adjusted the cable and finished.

This was definitely overkill, as I'll probably use the fan once in a blue moon. However, it was done right IMHO.

Here is how it turned out. (I didn't clean the outside of it yet) I did test it though, and it ran nicely:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Since the car came with no wiper washer nozzle or sign of a hose, I ran a washer fluid hose through the top of where the nozzle was through the hole just above the blower housing. This is a bit tricky as you will need to first fish a stiff thin-guage wire through the nozzle hole and make almost a right angle to have it come out just above the air box. (You can see it in picture above) At least the hose is there, I'll figure out how it works another time.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Now for a breather. Looking forward to figuring out this mess next:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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1978 SB Vert
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:05 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Ok ...the washer jet is part # 111 955 993 A. You can get that in numerous places. I have one on a card still from West Coast Metric. It fits numerous cars all the way up through 1987 or so.

Inerestingly...CIP1 has one that is stainless...never seen that. Looks cool! http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC-111-955-993-CHR

As for the air box. Take your time. There are LOTS of very important details to get correct here with this unit.

1. Unless you get the gaskets on the little doors right...you WILL freeze your ass off if you live in a cold place and drive at highway speeds.

I have fixed these several ways. First...you need to remove all of the old foam. Then as you note...you need some foam about 1/8" or 3/16" thick that is very, very soft. Neoprene closed cell..with the cast on smooth skin on the outside is ideal....like they make flotation devices from. You can get it at any rubber supply or at Mcmaster Carr.

You need to glue it down....and then clamp it tight for a day or two to make a ring shaped indentation so that the foam seals the end of the inlet pipe.

The other way to do this is to adhere the foam to the door with super 77 spray adhesive....then clamp it long enough to make the ring shaped indentation in the foam...then carefully...with a sharp Exacto knife...cut away that ring shape and peel it out...leaving the foam in the middle and the foam around the outside.

This lets the door close all the way so that the slide lever actually goes all the way to its stop. This also lets the raised ring of foam in the middle plugs the inlet holes....and the ring around the outside block air....so you get a perfect seal.

2. Keep the doors closed tight against the inlets....is difficult as these air boxes age...because the cables get sticky. Bear in mind that the slider cables are BOWDEN TUBES. The little clips where the cable sheathes are mounted under the dash...and the routing of the cables...is CRITICAL to their operation...so make note of their position and they have to go back the same way.

Also...no joke...lube the cables with ATF fluid as mentioned previously for other cables.

Also...while the unit is out...remove the slide lever assembly and switch plate.

You need to do this to lube the cables anyway...and 90% of the time You will note that most probably...that removing the cables from the plastic pins that that hold the cable end to the slider assembly....causes one or both to break off.

This will happen to 100% of all 411 and 412 cars so you will have no control of the air box....ask me how I know. Its just as easy to fix it now.

I will post a picture of this later. You simply pull the slider switch out...shave off what is left of the plastic split pin that holed the cable end...drill a hole through the boss with a dremel...and then find a screw that is the exact size of the hook/hole in the end of the cable. Make the hole slightly smaller than the screw size...then heat the screw and screw it in.

The screw I have found that works the best is one of the black ones that holds the handle onto the ECU plug end for the fuel injection system. This is a five minute fix when the parts are out...and it works permanently.

Pictures to come. DO NOT reinstall this unit without fixing these items or I guarantee you will be taking it out again.

Make sure the fan is in perfect shape along with its bearings or you will be doing this again. I have some spare fan motor assemblies. This is a 5000 rpm fan on high. Ray
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:17 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Ok..here are some details of the issues of why the vent door cable need to be lubricated while you have them out on front of you....and also make note of the clips that hold these cables and their routing. They must go back the way they came in or they will not generate enough leverage to close the doors all the way against the spring of the foam seals on the doors....and you will freeze your ass off in the winter.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


When the cables get stiff...they break off the plastic lug or stud that holds the cable to the slider assembly. Meanwhile before they break the stud off...the stiffness in the cables causes it to be very difficult to open and close flaps all the way because the cables in their Bowden tubes distort the cable jackets.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is what an unbroken slider assembly part looks like. Its a split snap in pin...which makes it very weak....and you also need about three hands to hold the part and move all four segments of the prongs inward to pop the cable off without cracking the stud.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is what the repaired part looks like. Make note...that you must drill the hole the correct size to be able to get the screw in...without cracking the boss like I did on the one in this picture. This is why this one is in my spare parts pile.

The way to NOT crack the boss...is to carefully measure the screw..main shaft..with the tapered ends of your caliper. The screw should have sheet metal style or wood screw style threads. Drill the hole that size. Then using a screwdriver with a a gripper on the end....or a spring loaded screw starter to hold the screw.....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


something like one of these which can be had in Phillips or slotted from Sears...never bee without these. They are lifesavers

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


or these....from walmart, harbor freight, Sears or anywhere....

And heat it for about 30-45 seconds on a gas stove or with a torch. Then screw it into the hole quickly...STRAIGHT.... to form threads. Make sure the tapered point of the screw goes all the way through so the threads are complete. If not...when you tighten that last little bit to try to form threads...it cracks the boss.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is the plate assembly with the repair installed.

IMPORTANT:...the screw you select needs to be a snug fit in the steel end of the cable. If not...there will be slack...and that slack is magnified in the cable...and that little bit of slack means quit a bit of gap that the flap is not pulled closed.

Ray
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 9:38 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

When yiu go to install the tri.....knowing that you have fresh paint..... align the pins to the holes in case they have moved. Then when you are still on the work bench....use yor 1/4" ratchet,to run a new speed nut down each threaded pin to cut the new machine thread before you install these parts. It makes it much easier.

Also....in the past I have run a very thin bead of RTV around the full perimeter of each trim part...thin.....and ldt it dry. Like an o-ring. Then when you install it....it keeps water,,grit and crud out from underneath these trim parts. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:57 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Quote:

When yiu go to install the tri.....knowing that you have fresh paint..... align the pins to the holes in case they have moved. Then when you are still on the work bench....use yor 1/4" ratchet,to run a new speed nut down each threaded pin to cut the new machine thread before you install these parts. It makes it much easier.


Thanks Ray, I probably would have struggled with the speed nuts while on car versus doing it on the bench. Helpful. Looking forward to getting the trim on now!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:12 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Now I'm up to staging the dashboard. I just reworked the airbox so it's sealed properly. The only thing that I didn't do anything with are the 4 flapper holes. I would have liked to put some kind of seal around the flappers, but can't find anything reliable that will provide a better seal than the plastic-to-plastic seal that's already there.

Here's how it is looking:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Some pre-install work I need to finish:

- Clean ends of wires (usually use a dremel with a wire brush)
- Plastic air box pipes are dust, so I'm going to attempt to replace with cardboard ones.
- Install new fuel flap cable (thx RG)
- Run new hood pop cable
- Remove crappy wiring (misc splices)
- Pre wire for A/C
- Put sound deadeners on firewall area
- Fix fresh air control lever per instructions earlier in this thread

Moving along....
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:45 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Cool shout out to RG for helping me out with fabricated spacers. For the first time since I've owned my 412... it's slowing getting back its fender molding.

These spacers secure the molding to the fender and allow the cap nut to properly fasten it:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It's hard to see, but the fastening system is actually 3-part. The white plastic base, allowing more surface area behind the fender, a small barrel-type spacer (hard to see under the silver Palnut) and the Palnut itself. The nylon pieces Ray made allow the nut to bend/distort and firmly grip the molding studs, effectively pulling molding taught to the body and not shake loose.

Another great suggestion: thread the nuts to the molding studs prior to installing. It makes life much easier. I'm really psyched up about the initial results:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It takes a lot of time and patience, but the outcome is great.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:20 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Very nice!
Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:42 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Any updates?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:50 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Happy New Year to all my T4 friends.

Update: Due to a move, my 412 project was tabled. However... it is a New Year and its time to pick up where I left off. The seats are up next. I'm trying to get some swatches of the original navy blue seats so I can find vinyl/leatherette close to it. Want have it look as original as possible. Any help would be appreciated.

Looking forward to getting back in action. Stay tuned.....


- Ron
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:42 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

ClassicCamper wrote:
Happy New Year to all my T4 friends.

Update: Due to a move, my 412 project was tabled. However... it is a New Year and its time to pick up where I left off. The seats are up next. I'm trying to get some swatches of the original navy blue seats so I can find vinyl/leatherette close to it. Want have it look as original as possible. Any help would be appreciated.

Looking forward to getting back in action. Stay tuned.....


- Ron


Check with sewfine. Welcome back!
Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:09 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Oh man yes. I need the same thing for my 412.

The rear seat's OK, but the fronts are minus padding, and somewhat dilapidated from being sat on with no padding for years. Seems the padding and its cotton wadding are the ultimate mouse nesting material, the engine compartment (when I got the car years ago) was full of seat remnants carried aft by busy little mouse feet... Evil or Very Mad
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:29 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Quote:

Check with sewfine. Welcome back!
Ray


Thanks for the info, they seem like a nice group of people, seat covers for a '73 412 wagon (front and rear) is going to cost about $600+. I don't think that is terrible. Plus... that is if you have the pattern. I'm in a situation where I have after-market covers and the PO simply removed the OG ones and tossed them.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:52 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

ClassicCamper wrote:
Quote:

Check with sewfine. Welcome back!
Ray


Thanks for the info, they seem like a nice group of people, seat covers for a '73 412 wagon (front and rear) is going to cost about $600+. I don't think that is terrible. Plus... that is if you have the pattern. I'm in a situation where I have after-market covers and the PO simply removed the OG ones and tossed them.


Ok....a couple of notes....and yes Sewfine have aleays been very helpful....and yes they havd quite the swldction of materials. Some of the concors type stock nazi's occasionally complain that some of the more difficult material patterns asnd textures are not perfect....but especially for later cars.....many of them are excellent.

The $600....is actually reasonably higher than what they kind of offhand quoted to me about 6-7 years ago so not bad....but.....as you note they need ,pattern.

Someone here not long ago made a pattern and sewed his own rather professionally.

They had also noted....sight unseen that generally if you send a seat....making a pattern was about $350-450. Still not bad......but also.....I am not,sure if they know that type 4 seats are more complex than any other aircooled seat. So it may pay to get one in their hanfs first.

That being ad ai noted before.....much as I like full original as much as possible ....I have so many parts to fabricate to get mine back on the road and being daily drivable level and to last the decades.....that if I could "buy" seats that are 85% of original, very functional and look like the original....I would just as woon do that than rework the original front,seats.

The Pro-Car 90 seats.....are close enough in all respects that if I recover the original headrests snd install on the 90s....the 90 series seat can be attached to the original seat bottom slider and seat skirt with very little problem.

You can get the seats covered by the factory with any cloth or vinyl you want by sending it to them and having the seats made. It like 6 weeks. Done in Taiwan. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:15 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

The Pro-car 90 sounds like an interesting seat. But, I must admit..... yeh I'm that OG guy. I'm trying to make this car look as original as possible. However, what is not visible to the naked eye is a different story. Many of the improvement mods I've read about have helped me out, and not visible without some poking around. I like Ray's approach of building the T4 to run for the long-haul and reliably.

Now, I am looking for some advice. First, I have no seat patterns. I have some scraps from an old seat, but that is about it. If anyone out there has any suggestions... I'm all ears.

Also, I want to put seat warmers (heated seats) under the new covers. If anyone has had any experience with a particular manufacturer or recommendations, I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks for reading.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:13 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

ClassicCamper wrote:
The Pro-car 90 sounds like an interesting seat. But, I must admit..... yeh I'm that OG guy. I'm trying to make this car look as original as possible. However, what is not visible to the naked eye is a different story. Many of the improvement mods I've read about have helped me out, and not visible without some poking around. I like Ray's approach of building the T4 to run for the long-haul and reliably.

Now, I am looking for some advice. First, I have no seat patterns. I have some scraps from an old seat, but that is about it. If anyone out there has any suggestions... I'm all ears.

Also, I want to put seat warmers (heated seats) under the new covers. If anyone has had any experience with a particular manufacturer or recommendations, I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks for reading.


Yep....going to put in seat warmers as well. I have been thinking...since I hage several of tbem...of repurposing tbe ashtray in the center of the dash.....to the seat heater control location.

Depending on the controls.....I envision flipping the lid up and controls are then vertical with tye lid at their back.

I will dig back wom months and find the extensive build thread the other persons seats. Ray
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