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Lars S
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Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 785
Location: Sweden
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 Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 12:38 am Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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| ClassicCamper wrote: |
....
I leave you guys with 1 question.
1) Any solid ideas as to HOW the 412 heater clock/timer wires into the system? Note: Ratwell has a write up on these and some commentary on the wiring, however it isn't correct for the 411/412's. (but he does have a nice picture of one on his site  ) I've reached out to him, but since he is a VW rockstar, he's probably swamped.
The ports in the back of the 411/412 clock are labeled "G" and "+". I do know this does need to be right or you could create a short in the heating system. So if anyone could help me with how to wire this in, I'd be really appreciative. I'll be sure to add your feedback to all the threads for the gas heaters for posterity.
Progress pictures to follow. |
Sorry I have not found any diagram showing how to connect the clock/timer to the BA4 circuit so I just want to discuss what could be the possibilities:
Since the instruction on how to use the timer function says that you should operate both the heater switch and the heating lever on the floor to heating positions the switch in the clock has to make the heater switch "dead" until the set time is in.
Looking att the wiring diagram around the heater switch it gets it main power supply from the battery at tab no 30. From my point of wiew a possibility is that the switch in the clock should breake up that supply (the red wire below). If so the switch "+" and "G" should be connected in series to that wire.
What do you think?
///Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver 
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold 
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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ClassicCamper
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Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 8:38 am Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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Lars, I think you are on to something. The directions I did manage to find (Ratwell) are using different terminal numbers and the wiring doesn't completely make sense if I look at the 412. It's probably for another type of VW:
| Quote: |
There are 4 contacts on the back of the gas heater timer clock + the "hole" for the instrument light:
ground - unlabeled right tab (any brown ground wire will do)
+12V - rearmost tab at back of clock gets power from emergency switch (just as plain jane clock would)
B - left side, connects to terminal 30 on gas heater timer switch (power via fuse S9)
30 - left side, connects to terminal 4 on gas heater timer switch (bypasses accessory fuse S10) |
You are suggesting the following:
| Quote: |
| Looking at the wiring diagram around the heater switch it gets it main power supply from the battery at tab no 30. From my point of wiew a possibility is that the switch in the clock should break up that supply (the red wire below). If so the switch "+" and "G" should be connected in series to that wire. |
So, I'm deducing thus far that + on the 412 time switch should go to S9 (which is where the red wire from gas heater switch runs into the fuse box). I think this is what you are saying, Lars and if so... I agree with you.
I think the one that says 'G' on it is the one in question. It's a bit of a mystery. Thanks so much for looking. Once we get this right, I'll do a write up and a diagram about it. I know there are still a lot of clocks out there (I have 2) and it would be a nice compliment to cars with working heaters. The gauge itself is just a beautiful piece of instrumentation.
_________________
1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert |
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Hawker
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Joined: October 03, 2012
Posts: 124
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 8:51 am Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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Gents,
I have “the” official wiring diagram for wiring in the 24hour clock timer to operate the petrol heater. I used it myself when installing the very same clock.
However, I am nowhere near it and it could be several weeks before I can get my hands on it. When all this COVID19 nonsense is out of the way, it will be so much easier.
BR,
Rob |
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Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 785
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 9:35 am Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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| Hawker wrote: |
Gents,
I have “the” official wiring diagram for wiring in the 24hour clock timer to operate the petrol heater. I used it myself when installing the very same clock.
However, I am nowhere near it and it could be several weeks before I can get my hands on it. When all this COVID19 nonsense is out of the way, it will be so much easier.
BR,
Rob |
Oh nice Rob!
Think its worth waiting for the diagram so we get this right without having to guess.
Many thanks in advance!
/Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 10:47 am Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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Excellent!.
In the meantime....lets post up the part number of the dash heater timer and a picture of the pins. There are more than one heater timer switch unit. I have at least two. I will see if I can take pics and post the pin outs.
There is at least one model that has spare terminals that none of my cars heating systems have used.
I will post the complete heating system diagrams and part numbers lists later today under a seperate thread.....call it "connecting heater timer" or something?
But I agree with Lars train of thought. Really.....the dash switch timer unit needs to be ahle to be set so its "in operation" mode at whatever heat setting you want. But.....it needs to have its + or - signal "broken" or switched.....to be provided by the clock timer. Ray |
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ClassicCamper
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Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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Perfect "Heater Timer Connections" would be fantastic.
So, I made some progress on the wiring today (I think). Now, I have this wire, and I do believe it is a series of grounds for the gauges and maybe even some switches:
Are there any pros out there that know where these wires connect? (or at least where it terminates/ultimately grounds to?)
Final question, the wiring diagram mentions some grounds connect to the 'instrument panel' I'm not too sure what that means. When it says 'clock' or 'speedometer' ground points.. I get that. Any ideas what they mean by instrument panel?
Thanks as always.
_________________
1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert |
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Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 785
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 10:02 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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This is the 411/412 clock with the extra timer function.
Part no is 411 919 203 J.
Hard to see but the two spade connectors at the bottom for the internal timer switch are marked "G" and "+" just like Classic Camper says.
/Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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ClassicCamper
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Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:39 am Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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This is the 411/412 clock with the extra timer function.
Part no is 411 919 203 J.
| Quote: |
| Hard to see but the two spade connectors at the bottom for the internal timer switch are marked "G" and "+" just like Classic Camper says. |
Great picture, Lars!
To add a fly to the ointment here... I just noticed there are 2 more tabs on the back of the clock timer. They are short little spades (almost similar to the instrument lights)
They look like this:
They are labeled
"B" (or 6)
and "30"
The plot thickens!
_________________
1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert |
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Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 785
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:06 am Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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Yes, good point, did not see the two small spades on the opposite side of the backside, they are present on "my" clock also, I believe they are "30" and "6".
Longing for the diagram!
/Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:12 am Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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| ClassicCamper wrote: |
Perfect "Heater Timer Connections" would be fantastic.
So, I made some progress on the wiring today (I think). Now, I have this wire, and I do believe it is a series of grounds for the gauges and maybe even some switches:
Are there any pros out there that know where these wires connect? (or at least where it terminates/ultimately grounds to?)
Final question, the wiring diagram mentions some grounds connect to the 'instrument panel' I'm not too sure what that means. When it says 'clock' or 'speedometer' ground points.. I get that. Any ideas what they mean by instrument panel?
Thanks as always. |
As you suspect.....the brown wire network is for the grounds. In the picture below that Lars supplied ....you see wire tabs at 10:00 and 2:00.....and you see a double tab at about 5:00. These are all grounds. The double ground tab at 5:00 is present on all clocks.
I will have to look.....but there are a couple of ways that the double ground tab at 5:00 position "can" be used. It is a ground "TRANSFER" point.
IIRC.....and as noted I need to check mine to verify......on the standard clock/fuel gauge a single ground wire comes to this "ground transfer" point. So only one tab of this double tab is used.
However.....that single female connector has two wires crimped to it.....one ground "supply" wire coming "IN" to the double ground point......one wire leading away from the Double ground point to the first instrument light ground tab at 2:00 position.....which is a female terminal again crimped with two wires......the other wire leading away from the 2:00 ground tab ....over to the instrument ground tab at 10:00 position.
There is at least one more ground point supplied after that....probably to the speedometer.
The other significance is that it leaves one free ground tab at the double ground at,5:00. Ray |
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ClassicCamper
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:41 am Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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This is AWESOME Ray, thanks. Do you know where this ground terminates? (I'm probably not explaining this clearly, but I'll try...)
Where does this ground wire 'ground' to.... i.e. supply the instrument cluster with a ground? Somewhere on the body of the car or a switch?
I can't really tell from the wiring diagram.
--------------------------
On a side note, I do have an update:
After following EACH wire and drawing up my own mini-diagram, there ARE signs of life.
High beams working too. (not indicator light yet, but when I sort the grounding out, I have high hopes)
Tail lights and rear side marker lights working too. (providing they should be the 'dim' side of the 2-way bulb is for tail lights and the bright filament is used when you apply the brakes) 
I'm doing one fuse at a time... it's grueling. At least I'll have hand sketches for anyone who needs yet another alternate USA (AND NON-USA) wiring scheme for their 1973 T4
Working on the license lights at lunch and tracing fuses S6 & S7
_________________
1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:59 am Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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| ClassicCamper wrote: |
This is AWESOME Ray, thanks. Do you know where this ground terminates? (I'm probably not explaining this clearly, but I'll try...)
Where does this ground wire 'ground' to.... i.e. supply the instrument cluster with a ground? Somewhere on the body of the car or a switch?
I can't really tell from the wiring diagram.
--------------------------
On a side note, I do have an update:
After following EACH wire and drawing up my own mini-diagram, there ARE signs of life.
High beams working too. (not indicator light yet, but when I sort the grounding out, I have high hopes)
Tail lights and rear side marker lights working too. (providing they should be the 'dim' side of the 2-way bulb is for tail lights and the bright filament is used when you apply the brakes)
I'm doing one fuse at a time... it's grueling. At least I'll have hand sketches for anyone who needs yet another alternate USA (AND NON-USA) wiring scheme for their 1973 T4
Working on the license lights at lunch and tracing fuses S6 & S7 |
In most cars....the dedicated high beams should be the inner ones. When your high beams are on....all four lights should light up. The higher wattage filaments on the dual beams on the outer and the single filament beams on the inner...should light up together.
I will look when I get home....so see where the ground point begins under the dash.
Ray |
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ClassicCamper
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Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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| Quote: |
| In most cars....the dedicated high beams should be the inner ones. When your high beams are on....all four lights should light up. The higher wattage filaments on the dual beams on the outer and the single filament beams on the inner...should light up together |
Thanks Ray! I was actually talking about the dual filament bulb in the tail lights. One filament is brighter than the other. I wasn't sure if the brake light requires the brighter filament OR the tail light while driving is the brighter one.
I'm thinking the former...
_________________
1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert |
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Hawker
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Joined: October 03, 2012
Posts: 124
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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Gents,
From memory, and unlike my other VW’s the Type 4’s have a few multiple earthing sites under the dashboard. They look like a brass rose with many (5) spade terminals and are fixed to the body with a central cross headed screw.
BR,
Rob |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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| ClassicCamper wrote: |
| Quote: |
| In most cars....the dedicated high beams should be the inner ones. When your high beams are on....all four lights should light up. The higher wattage filaments on the dual beams on the outer and the single filament beams on the inner...should light up together |
Thanks Ray! I was actually talking about the dual filament bulb in the tail lights. One filament is brighter than the other. I wasn't sure if the brake light requires the brighter filament OR the tail light while driving is the brighter one.
I'm thinking the former... |
Ah.....the brake is the brighter/larger filament. The dimmer one is the driving taillight. Because the driving tail light does not turn off when you brake...the brake has to be brighter to be seen. Ray |
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ClassicCamper
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Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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So tonight's update...
I hand-drew every fuse circuit. Twelve pages, as I allotted one page for tracing each fuse in the box. I compared it to 3 wiring diagrams and made the most logical decisions I could.
Fuse box - Done
Light Switch - Done
Fasten Seat Belt Light - Done (it's a plug)
Brake Warning Light - Done
I also hand-drew the rear of the gauges and finally got that sorted (except for the heater timer of course!)
I briefly applied power to the car, and so far, it seems to be progressing. HOWEVER, there is a loud buzz in the engine compartment area when I turn the ignition switch to the 'on' position. But, I've only done it a few times to help trace wires. Not trying to run anything.
Tomorrow Evening: Instruments and dash grounds. 
Wish me luck!
_________________
1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert |
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Hawker
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Joined: October 03, 2012
Posts: 124
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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Gents,
Talking about the 24hour heater timer clock and the electrical connections. Again from memory the clock activates the heater by making the connection between terminals 30 and 6. This switching is in parallel with the connection made by turning the heater control switch in the dashboard clockwise from the vertical off position. Obviously the red tipped heater control lever needs to be raised, the red disc visible in the clock and a temperature selected, for the clock to initiate the start cycle of the BN4.
Best regards,
Rob |
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ClassicCamper
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Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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| Quote: |
| Talking about the 24hour heater timer clock and the electrical connections. Again from memory the clock activates the heater by making the connection between terminals 30 and 6. This switching is in parallel with the connection made by turning the heater control switch in the dashboard clockwise from the vertical off position. Obviously the red tipped heater control lever needs to be raised, the red disc visible in the clock and a temperature selected, for the clock to initiate the start cycle of the BN4. |
Thanks Rob, The heater timer has two wire terminals "B" &"30". It seems like some delicate wiring on the one I did take apart, so I think someone here has the actual diagram and is going to post it once he gets to it after this COVID-19 gives us a breather.
Update tonight:
A good deal of success. The hand-written wiring diagrams I made worked out and I have electric to most of the components AND I was actually able to get her started. She runs pretty nice after sitting for so many years.
Findings from most of the wiring diagrams:
I remember when I had the car running, some (or all) of the knobs like the hazard light switch, heater switch and defroster switch would glow lightly as I I would drive. There are no terminals on the switches that I could see for this function. Any ideas?
_________________
1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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When all of the correct wires to the hazard switch are connected...yes...it glows. But...the version that has the pilot glow will have a resistor soldered between two terminals up top if memory serves. It will only glow when the dash lights are on.
The defroster switch only glows green when its on if memory serves.
The heater switch I "think" glows green when the dash lights are on.
Ray |
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ClassicCamper
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| Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:16 pm Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. |
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Made a little more progress today. Installed the rubber seal around the rear hatch and cleaned and installed all of the hatch-locking hardware. I also aligned the door so it closes nicely and appears air tight.
Next, I banged out all of the bends in the bumper, sanded the inside of it along with taking a wire wheel to it. Once done, I put a few coats of a good rust preventative on the inside. A good buddy of mine powder coated the mounting brackets:
The bumper was a bear to wrestle back together and I had to do alot of banging and bending to get it to mount properly. I need to do a few more tweaks to get it perfect. But... I’m pleased with today’s results and it is finally starting to look like a car again.
Oh yea, I installed the cheese grater thing that covers the muffler, below the bumper.
_________________
1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert |
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