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Slow Steve
Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2008
Posts: 715
Location: Midlothian, VA
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 Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:46 am Post subject: Re: Neil's bubbletop volksrod build |
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That's the coolest build I think I'be seen in a loooooong time. Big thumbs up!
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BarryL wrote:
100 years from now when they have reverse atom regeneration attractor technology perfected and in a hand held back yard mechanic's price range, someone will dig up this thread and go, "What were those guys thinking? The whole thing was all there just waiting to be re-atomized. Funny how easily they cut them up back then."
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74 911
72 914
65 13w Deluxe
60 Ragtop |
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Jacks
Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2006
Posts: 2348
Location: San Clemente, Ca.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: Neil's bubbletop volksrod build |
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Jack Staggs
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andk5591
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 16758
Location: State College, PA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:05 am Post subject: Re: Neil's bubbletop volksrod build |
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That looks like something Starbird would have done...
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D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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brettsvw
Samba Member
Joined: November 22, 2007
Posts: 2145
Location: Florida
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joey1320
Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2006
Posts: 2325
Location: Cleveland, OH
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andygere
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2014
Posts: 600
Location: Central Coast, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Neil's bubbletop volksrod build |
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| The headlights are growing on me, I say keep 'em. For tail lights, I like the idea of a bullet scoop air cleaner on each carb finished with a '59 Caddy or similar lens on the back. Blue dot, of course. |
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nshaddox
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2005
Posts: 612
Location: Hammatramma, MI
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:28 am Post subject: Re: Neil's bubbletop volksrod build |
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House work done.
Planning on swapping to long spline axles in the back so I can run thing drums to widen rear track a bit more and get more tire/body clearance. Anyone know what backing plates/shoes are compatible?
Probably won't be doing much in the garage since it's the cold season, but there's some little jobs that can get done meanwhile. |
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11056
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:59 am Post subject: Re: Neil's bubbletop volksrod build |
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| nshaddox wrote: |
. Anyone know what backing plates/shoes are compatible?
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The axles and tubes..dont make the brakes.. the brakes make the axles.
Rule of thumb..
58-64 shoes and backing plates
65-67 shoes and backing plates
68 and newer shoes and backing plates
Use the backing plates, shoes it currently has.. just transfer it over to long axle tubes..
The key to the tube swap.. .... Be sure to keep the bearing caps with their respective axle tubes..and what ever brake backing plates you use with their respective brake shoes and drums.
There are long axle short spline for the 67's
and
Long (er) axle Long spline for 68 up swing axle (4 lug) .
Either axle can work in a long axle tube whether 67 or 68.
the 67-68 up axle tubes are the same length.. but have slightly different outer bearing offset.. hence why.. the bearing cap must stay with the axle..
If you plan to use 67 tubes.. use 67 caps
If you plan to use 68 tubes.. use 68 caps
If you want it a even a smidgen wider..
Use 67/68 axle tubes, 68 axles, 68 rear brakes and backing plates and use the wide five conversion drums..
That will give it the most surface area rear brakes and ads some track width as well..
Or.. again.. simply use what you have for brakes.. swap to long axles and tubes..
It's a light car.. it probably wont really need the larger 68 rear brakes anyway..
.
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5481
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:58 am Post subject: Re: Neil's bubbletop volksrod build |
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The Thing uses the same rear brakes as the '68 and newer Bugs. Only the drums are different, wide 5 bolt pattern and a wider track width. The drums are for long splines, so 1968 long axles should be used with appropriate axle tubes. That would be the widest swingaxle setup I'm aware of short of using spacers.
You can use older Bug brakes with the Thing drums, so updating your brakes is not required.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20278
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Neil's bubbletop volksrod build |
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Type 3 four lug drums/brakes, long axles, and 4-5 lug adapters would work, too. As wide as thing drums and the strongest drum brakes possible in this situation. That is what I like to use on lowered buses when possible.
You probably don't need that much braking force, though.
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andk5591
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 16758
Location: State College, PA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:42 am Post subject: Re: Neil's bubbletop volksrod build |
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Can't you achieve what you want (or some of it) with wheel offsets? Can't remember if you are keeping what you have on it or not. Look at some older hot rods and you will see things like those beautiful finned Buick drums almost totally exposed because they are running reversed wheel or similar.
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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nshaddox
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2005
Posts: 612
Location: Hammatramma, MI
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:02 am Post subject: Re: Neil's bubbletop volksrod build |
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I could run spacers on the currently installed 65-67 drums/short spline long axles, but the ones i bought look sketchy to me. already have long spline long axles in the parts stash and picked up a pair of thing drums cheap, so it should just be some labor to swap stuff out, especially if I can use the same axle tubes and backing plates. not sure if I have 68 bearing caps in the stash so i'll have to look and see. seems like if the bearing offset is different then there would be some other spacer or axle dimension that was also different between the short/long spline rear axles?
probably won't happen for a while. too cold in garage. |
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11056
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:19 am Post subject: Re: Neil's bubbletop volksrod build |
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| nshaddox wrote: |
seems like if the bearing offset is different then there would be some other spacer or axle dimension that was also different between the short/long spline rear axles?
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Nope..
Its only a 3mm difference.. (67 to 68 ) of bearing placement.. which is taken up in the side gears and fulcrum plates.
The distance from the fulcrum paddle to the inner spacer radius remained the same.. short/long/longer.
The true measurable differences in swing axle lengths are from the inner spacer radius outward..
Here..
| VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
| RareAir wrote: |
| ALL the axle tubes are the same length. It's the end casting which makes the difference. 1966-earlier cars used short axles. 1967-68 cars used long axles. Either way, the actual axle tube is the same size. The end casting was lengthened on the 1967-68 cars to compensate for the additional length of the axle. |
| VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
In addition.. for USA spec Beetles.
When comparing 1966 vs 1967
1967 swingaxles have approx 25mm (1 inch) longer axle shafts and tubes (per side). (long axle short spline)
Increases rear track width by approx 2 inches when used as a complete transaxle.
This information applies to 1968 swing axles as well.
1968 axle shafts are slightly longer than the 67's (long axle long spline) at the spline end to take advantage of the longer spline 4 lug drums.
The 1968 tubes are the same length as 67's but use different outer bearing offsets.
It is important to keep bearing caps with their respective tubes no matter the year.
Short axles (pre 67) and tubes can be installed on 1967 and 1968 transaxle cases. |
| VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
Beetle tunnel case transaxle.
Short axle/short spline - '61-'66 T1
Long axle /short spline - '67 T1
Longer axle/longer spline - '68 up T1
and to repeat from above
For US Spec Beetles.
Up through 1966 used short tubes short axles with short splines
1967 used long tubes long axles with short splines
1968 and some 69 used long tubes long axles with long splines for the longer spline 4 lug drums.
Just FYI , for countries still utilizing swing axles after 1968, used long tube long spline axles. |
| fluxcap wrote: |
Sorry man, don't have any short axles to measure, but found this pic from another thread with a yard stick in it to give you an idea until somebody can get exact measurements.
66 and earlier short axles on left
67 long axle/short spline in the middle
68 long axle/long spline on the right
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| VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
Yep... look at the end casting..
Its either wider than the average hand width..... or not..
Short Left... Long Right..
Long top Short Bottom
Now telling the difference between a 67 long tube or 68 long tube .. thats additional advice...
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| VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
Just keep in mind and be sure to keep the bearing caps separated as even though the 67 and 68 tubes are the same length, the bearing placement is different.
I am currently using a transaxle with 2- 67 axles, a left 67 Beetle tube and a right 68 Type 3 tube (welded Z bar guide).
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_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited |
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nshaddox
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2005
Posts: 612
Location: Hammatramma, MI
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Neil's bubbletop volksrod build |
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| good info there, thanks a million. |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20278
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Neil's bubbletop volksrod build |
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Man, that is a great collection of photos with a huge pile of info contained within. The first photo with the old wooden ruler is one of mine from a long time ago. 
I am going to quote that whole thing into the lowered split bus thread just for future reference. It will be able to answer many questions that come up often in regard to axles, bearing caps, etc.
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nshaddox
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2005
Posts: 612
Location: Hammatramma, MI
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: Neil's bubbletop volksrod build |
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https://weddleindustries.com/product/1001557
would the 113-501-311A part number bearing cap be the '68 style cap? Tried looking around elsewhere on samba for a definitive answer, but probably easier to just ask VOLKSWAGNUT... |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5481
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Neil's bubbletop volksrod build |
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| nshaddox wrote: |
| I could run spacers on the currently installed 65-67 drums/short spline long axles, but the ones i bought look sketchy to me. already have long spline long axles in the parts stash and picked up a pair of thing drums cheap, so it should just be some labor to swap stuff out, especially if I can use the same axle tubes and backing plates. not sure if I have 68 bearing caps in the stash so i'll have to look and see. |
You can run your backing plates with Thing drums, and then you run your shoes and wheel cylinders too. Extra drum width is not an issue.
If your axle tubes are 1968 then you need 1968 bearing caps. If you use 1967 axle tubes then you could use any 1958-1967 caps. How much of the bearing was in the cap vs in the tube changed so mixing parts results in the extra space in the bearing outer race or not enough space.
_________________
| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11056
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Neil's bubbletop volksrod build |
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| EVfun wrote: |
| If your axle tubes are 1968 then you need 1968 bearing caps. If you use 1967 axle tubes then you could use any 1958-1967 caps. How much of the bearing was in the cap vs in the tube changed so mixing parts results in the extra space in the bearing outer race or not enough space. |
^ yep..
To make an additional note.. for reference..
58-64 bearing caps use an exposed axle seal WITH the often lost and tossed drum slinger.
65-67 caps use the shrouded seal cap with an internal slinger and the weep hole in the backing plate to match the weep hole in the cap.
Both can be interchanged as EV indicated..
68 up caps LOOK similar to the 65-67 caps but measure out and are spec'd differently. (see pics above)
| VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
1965 (ish) VW changed from the "drum slinger" to the backing plate "weep hole" with internal slinger.. .
The change was developed to deter the brake shoes from oil soaking in the event of an axle seal failure..
Note below.. "shrouded" bearing cap vs open bearing cap..
| VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
Here.. you can see the different parts..
| VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
"oil deflector"
or convert to the 65-67 style internal deflector and shrouded bearing cap and drill the weep hole in the backing plate.
IMO... 65-67 is a better design and option.
| glutamodo wrote: |
and yes, if you drill a hole in the backing plate, you can use the 65 style rear bearing cap.
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Also
58-64 use straight slot adjusters
65 up use angled slot adjusters
The shoes must match the slot style..
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| VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
| glutamodo wrote: |
The 65-67 are actually almost the same as the 58-64, they just use an angled adjuster. If you change the adjusters, you can use the later shoes. And you can put the early adjusters on a 65-67 and use the early shoes. (I've done this on my 66-pan Baja)
The early ones are straight, the late ones are angled:
And here's the brake shoe chart:
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_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited
Last edited by VOLKSWAGNUT on Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:24 am; edited 3 times in total |
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11056
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:19 am Post subject: Re: Neil's bubbletop volksrod build |
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| nshaddox wrote: |
https://weddleindustries.com/product/1001557
would the 113-501-311A part number bearing cap be the '68 style cap? Tried looking around elsewhere on samba for a definitive answer, but probably easier to just ask VOLKSWAGNUT... |
I am not a parts number guy.. 
I think I read.... but am NOT 100% sure about this.. the 69 up IRS cap are the same or can be used for the 68 up swing axle cap.. 
..
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited
Last edited by VOLKSWAGNUT on Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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nshaddox
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2005
Posts: 612
Location: Hammatramma, MI
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:52 am Post subject: Re: Neil's bubbletop volksrod build |
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| looks like IRS is different from what I've seen. it doesn't have the shrouding for the slinger since there is no need for a slinger on an IRS application. |
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