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chachi
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Joined: November 18, 2003
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Location: the weeds
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 Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 4:44 pm Post subject: cold starting issue |
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you may have seen me over at this thread, but this is still an issue so it needs its own thread. my family drove our new-to-us '91 hightop to Sunriver, Or. for the holiday and fortunately and unfortunately, Sunriver got more snow than they have in ten years and this van doesn't seem to like it. Two days ago it wouldn't start, just cranks and cranks. fuel at the rail, spark at the distributor, but no start. we towed it to a mechanic in Bend who decided the oil was too heavy and the coolant wasn't properly rated so he replaced those with the appropriately rated equivalents, and sent us on our way. this morning, back in Sunriver, it wouldn't start again this morning and i'm scratching my head as to what i can do now.
i went and bought a block heater, but the only available one seems to be doing little and certainly doesn't start it. in the parts included with this van is what appears to be a brand new bosch O2 sensor, wondering if i swap that out if it may help with this condition.
other than that, i'm alllllll ears.
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djkeev
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chachi
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Joined: November 18, 2003
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Location: the weeds
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| Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: cold starting issue |
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talked over the cap/rotor with this mechanic (and yeah i'm a little pissed he basically just punted this repair) and while they were a little carbon scarred, he maintained that the van would still start and run, just a little rough. i scraped the contact on the cap and rotor and it didn't seem to improve the condition. certainly his opinion isn't coming from a position of strength here...
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Merian
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| Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: cold starting issue |
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please post the name of the shop in Sunriver so we can all avoid it
repl. the cap, rotor, and all ignition wires, spark plugs too
check the coolant and oil used as it it quite possible he screwed that up & be sure there is a Mann oil filter on too |
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chachi
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Location: the weeds
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| Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: cold starting issue |
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this is the Old Volks Home in bend. who's the trusted shop here? and, when it's not christmas eve/christmas, where do i get german parts down here? napa had mostly no name/chinese sounding elec. parts.
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chachi
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| Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: cold starting issue |
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is there a way to juice the system, just to get the engine to run long enough to warm up? i have no idea what this guy did to get it to start.
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djkeev
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:42 pm Post subject: Re: cold starting issue |
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You need to trouble shoot the FI/Ignition system. Are you getting power on the #15 circuit at the coil? Is your FI relay closing? Do the diagnostic checks shown in the Bentley on the Hall pickup. Do check to see if the resister strip on the rotor is burnt up if you are getting spark to the coil, but no spark at the plug end of the wires.
I hate it when mechanics pull this kind of crap off. How could the kind of antifreeze affect starting? Insufficient antifreeze might let the coolant mix start to slush up, but the engine still might start with just the water pump belt doing some squealing. Usually in my experience the first sign of insufficient antifreeze is that the engine overheats because the slush can't pass through the over cooled radiator.
Looks like the overnight temps in Bend have only been in mid twenties, while a 5w** or 10w** oil would certainly be preferable your engine would probably crank fast enough to start on a 20w50 oil. |
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crazyvwvanman
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 7:42 am Post subject: Re: cold starting issue |
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The O2 sensor has nothing to do with cold starts.
You had a running problem thread in the summer but you never closed the thread with an explanation of what that problem was in the end.
Mark |
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Butcher
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 8:11 am Post subject: Re: cold starting issue |
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| djkeev wrote: |
But, you've got fuel, you've obviously got compression because you drove there, that leaves spark.
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Such a huge assumption.
Compression and air is a given. Spark and fuel is a good place to start. Liquid fuel does not burn and cold gas has a tendency not to vaporize. Do not ever rule out fuel as an option of the problem. |
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djkeev
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 10:14 am Post subject: Re: cold starting issue |
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| Butcher wrote: |
| djkeev wrote: |
But, you've got fuel, you've obviously got compression because you drove there, that leaves spark.
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Such a huge assumption.
Compression and air is a given. Spark and fuel is a good place to start. Liquid fuel does not burn and cold gas has a tendency not to vaporize. Do not ever rule out fuel as an option of the problem. |
Really?
OP states " fuel at the rail, " ..........
It ran, you have compression, you had fuel and you had spark.
Now, mix in snow, (which melts on a warm engine creating water) add cold........
Now ask, is compression severely affected by wet cold? Probably not.
Is fuel delivery affected by wet cold? Only if there's a lot of water in it or the electrics are iffy to the pump.
Is ignition affected by wet cold? A big YES!!
Start with the ignition in this case.
Dave
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Butcher
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:04 am Post subject: Re: cold starting issue |
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As a technician by trade [30+ years] and rated top in the country by my peers, I would not rule out fuel. But, we all have our opinions and they will differ. 15 years of strictly diagnosing cars that come back, I think I have a bit of knowledge about what I speak. Thinking it can't be a problem does not fix issues.
We can agree, that an oil and coolant change would not benefit the problem too much [but would benefit the technician esp. during Christmas time].
With the cold weather, there could be an issue effecting the coolant temp sensor. That could have the computer inject so much fuel that it will not run [or visa versa]. I can give you more instances that fuel may be an issue [as well as ignition as you mentioned] in case you need more. |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: cold starting issue |
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| chachi wrote: |
| is there a way to juice the system, just to get the engine to run long enough to warm up? i have no idea what this guy did to get it to start. |
Do the test I suggested so you know where you have power and where your don't. Does your fuel pump run briefly when you first turn the key to the "ON" position? |
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chachi
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: cold starting issue |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
The O2 sensor has nothing to do with cold starts.
You had a running problem thread in the summer but you never closed the thread with an explanation of what that problem was in the end.
Mark |
i will check into that and see what i can do about an update. different van though.
we were able to jump it last night. i had tried to jump it by myself and was therefore not able to rev the donor car so i'm assuming doing so was the ticket to our success. so, uh, this might be as simple as a dying battery.  the PO installed an extensive aux batt setup and they are somehow tied together because the voltage on the aux sucks down when you crank it. weird, i have yet to figure that system out. it drove fine last night after it started and warmed up, pretty capable in the snow.
fuel pump seems good, comes on for a couple seconds and runs when cranking.
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Last edited by chachi on Fri Dec 25, 2015 2:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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chachi
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Joined: November 18, 2003
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Location: the weeds
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: cold starting issue |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
The O2 sensor has nothing to do with cold starts.
You had a running problem thread in the summer but you never closed the thread with an explanation of what that problem was in the end.
Mark |
is this the "heat related bog" thread? if so, i never solved that. wasn't the computer, i know that. still thinking it was the TPS but our summer and long distance road trips ended and the problem hasn't surfaced in day to day driving.
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djkeev
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: cold starting issue |
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| chachi wrote: |
we were able to jump it last night. i had tried to jump it by myself and was therefore not able to rev the donor car so i'm assuming doing so was the ticket to our success. so, uh, this might be as simple as a dying battery. the PO installed an extensive aux batt setup and they are somehow tied together because the voltage on the aux sucks down when you crank it. weird, i have yet to figure that system out. it drove fine last night after it started and warmed up, pretty capable in the snow.
fuel pump seems good, comes on for a couple seconds and runs when cranking. |
| djkeev wrote: |
Can I assume the battery is healthy and cranking over quickly?
Dave |
So the answer to that ^^ is No.
Anyway.....
Glad you got it going!
Now you need to Take some time chasing wires and diagnosis your auxiliary battery setup to isolate house electrics from starting electrics.
Also get the battery checked out for overall health to ward off future "Breakdowns".
I'd also find out what oil filter, oil and antifreeze the shop put in.
One size does not fit all.
Dave
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
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chachi
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: cold starting issue |
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oil was LiquiMoly 10-40 with a mann filter, which seems respectable. have to find out what the coolant is.
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Merian
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: cold starting issue |
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you're ok on the oil
I am surprised as that shop has a pretty good reputation. Maybe the "mechanic" wanted to go home. I would write the shop owner (Google: Oregon Business Registry to find the real owner) and ask ask what happened - this gives them a chance to refund some or all your money and apologize before you lower their reputation by posting on Samba, yelp, whatever. Succinctly state what you told the mechanic (symptoms) and what he did; state what oil was in there before.
Read this:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7927729#7927729
you will want to do a complete tune-up on your Vanagon - it seems like it has been neglected. |
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snwbrdr435
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: cold starting issue |
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| I had a similar issue 2 winters ago. I checked fuel pressure and thought it was good. Had spark etc. Wouldn't start would crank and crank. Then once it was light out and I could actually see I found out that there was a shit load of water in my fuel. The rubber rollover grommets on the expansion tanks in the wheel wells were no longer in existence. After driving through pounding rain and a massive snow storm I had gotten plenty of water in the tank. |
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chachi
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: cold starting issue |
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battery was not the problem. brand new battery had same problem and original battery tested good at a battery shop. i know you guys all said plugs/rotor/cap/wires but they're new as of a couple months ago and everybody i talk to of any reputable car knowledge says it would at least still start. car started with brand new battery after a lot of trying and ran great all the way home, certainly not missing in a way that would indicate a cylinder not firing. when cold, car still has a little hiccup in the start now that it's not in the snow, kind of a sag and then a start. if it's been running it starts back up with no sag.
ignition switch?
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