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Type 4 case "syndrome" safety modification
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:27 pm    Post subject: Type 4 case "syndrome" safety modification Reply with quote

Ok....some will say this is overkill. So what....do what you want.

For those who don't yet know (and you should)...the type 4 case "syndrome" comes from over tightening the oil strainer bolt. It should be no more than 9 ft lbs. As you an see in the pictures, the strainer nut stud is gas braised to the oil pickup bell and had a steel loop that suspends the bell in the correct position by a single cross bolt running through the case. The case boss that supports this has very little mass/meat.

If over tightened...it can and usually after numerous cycles (sometime even on the first cycle)... WILL not only cause deformation and destruction of the threads in the case where the through bolt runs...but usually cause severe cracking of the case. It usually breaks a chunk off. This is almost always the death of the case. Very hard to fix even with welding.

What I am doing in these pictures is not a total "FIX" for everything that can happen if you greatly over torque the strainer nut on a type 4 engine......but its simple and it will 100% prevent you from destroying the case and causing the "syndrome". You can still destroy the oil pick up bell and stud....but thats all.

NOTE: Sorry for the grimy case and parts in this picture. Its one of my uncleaned cases and was the handiest to work with because all of the cylinder studs are out.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Just fitting the pickup tube in the case half and making sure the loop can exactly center on the thread bore

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I used a 15mm long 8mm x 1.25 bolt to lock the pickup tube to the case half so there is no side loading on the bolt. Perfectly centered.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


In this picture I am using a flat razor saw to mark the case parting line location on the oil pickup bell. Do it to both sides. You can use a razor blade or a needle file as well. Just dont screw up the case edge.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Notice these flat land areas all around the bell that you can make use of.

Simply put...I am going to weld support feet to the bell to hold it in such a position that the steel support loop cannot misalign and side load the support bolt no matter how much torque you apply to the strainer nut.

Ideally....one would think that four support feet at 90* intervals or even three support feet at 120* intervals would be great. But I want to block as little oil flow as possible (not that I think this will impede oil flow at all)....and because during this process I discovered how much the bell itself flexes......and because of what I saw in the picture below.....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


....the fact that the bell when suspended perfectly centered on its bolt is not dead level (whether its a design feature or an oddity of factory brazing)....led me to the fact that its simpler to put two support feet on the bell right on the centerline. Much easier for reach of adjustment during the fitting process.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So...I am using two 8mm x 1.25 ID (13mm outer hex) coupling nuts with bolts screwed into them. You can see from the pictures where I am fitting them up...just to one side of the case parting line to make sure I know what the exact adjustment level is before I weld them on.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


First clean away any zinc or cad plating with FRESH grinding or sanding rolls on three sides of each hex...one side for contact two for welding on.
And also sand the surface of the bell where you need to weld. Clean both surfaces with acetone.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is what the coupling nuts look like welded...the welds though they look ugly....are quite strong. I will be grinding them smooth though it does not really matter. These were a bit tricky to weld.



The bolts/feet are NOT yet welded to lock them yet. You first need to install the pickup tube in the case......install and tighten the plate and strainer ....while making sure the suspending bolt hoop stays centered exactly around the thread bore and bolt ....by adjusting the bolts/feet with a wrench. Then mark the bolt position and take the pickup tube out so you can spot weld the bolts so the adjustment does not change.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Install and center the hanger bolt and do basic adjustment of feet to make sure the hanger hoop stays centered around the hanger bolt. If the hanger bolt is nice and tight in the hoop....just bring the feet down until they touch and give about 1/5th turn more.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Its hard to see in the picture...my USB scope is elsewhere at the moment or I would have done an in-bore shot....but the "hoop" is exactly centered around the cross bore at this foot adjustment level.....giving the same amount of silver/aluminum showing all around and the cross bolt is not physically touching the hoop. You can see a little bit of silver in the bore of the hoop in the picture.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Mount the plate, strainer and gaskets..tighten...and recheck, readjust the feet BEFORE YOU SPOT WELD THEM LIKE IN THIS PICTURE....sorry...out of sequence but you get the gist..


CAUTION: do not adjust the feet much. With application of torque...and you will see this...the bell itself is stretching and defecting slightly. You want to make sure that with the strainer and plate removed....that the hoop is aligned enough with the bore hole that you do not have issues installing the case bolt during engine assembly


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


In this terrible picture...you can see that the feet/adjusting bolts have been spot welded and the whole assembly is installed. Yes...I will grind the welds smooth later.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


By the way...a side note. I typically RTV my gaskets on each side of the strainer. This strainer and gasket set has over 85K miles on it...never leaks and has had oil changes every 3k miles. makes installation so much easier. Its very easy to strip off and reapply if needed.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You will notice in these pictures that I have 20 ft lbs on the stack up. i just did this for giggles and grins....you physically cannot put any more than 20 ft lbs on this stack up...as the sealing washer on the nut turned to mush and you can feel the bell deflecting and see it through the case openings from the top....but the cross bolt though it has some side load on it from the deflection of the bell...is still removable but is tight.

AND.....in NO WAY DOES THIS PLATE ASSEMBLY REQUIRE MORE THAN 10-12 LBS. TORQUING TO 20 FT BS WAS JUST A DEMONSTRATION TO NOTE THAT OVER TORQUE WILL NO LONGER WRECK THE CASE.




A couple of last important items to think about:


1. When you use the RTV method that I do (see the last pictures)...of adhering the gaskets to the top and bottom side of the strainer...which works fantastic by the way.....using more than 10 ft lbs just causes the stack up of aluminum, RTV and gaskets to squish down more.
You can pretty much hit 10 ft lbs and make several more revolutions of the nut without adding anymore torque on the torque wrench.

2. Adding about 1.0 turns more at 10 ft lbs....is ALL you want to add...because the bell DOES deflect slightly. You are transferring the load to the welded on feet...which as it deflects transfers some movement to the "hoop". So you get a small amount of side loading on the cross bolt...but nothing like the stock configuration. You wont break anything this way.

3. If you are using the dry gasket method with no RTV....and have a solid copper washer between the nut and outer steel plate...not a crush washer....you can put right at 20 ft lbs on this before the deflection of the bell gets significant.

NOTE: This gasket and washer and strainer stack up does NOT need more than 10-12 lbs EVER for proper sealing. This modification was simply made as a safety device so that if you accidentally or sloppily exceed 9 ft lbs even by double or triple....you cannot damage the case.
. In reality by about 25 ft lbs you will most probably crack the braising of the center stud. While that would truly suck....because the case must be disassembled to replace or repair the oil pickup.....it sucks far worse than destroying the case.

Happy New Year! Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 case "syndrome" safety modification Reply with quote

Total overkill.

Well done overkill.

Seriously, thanks for sharing this Ray. I think if one had the case apart, it would make sense to protect the case from an overtorqued strainer bolt.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:04 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 case "syndrome" safety modification Reply with quote

Nice writeup Ray!
Will have good use for this since i have a case with this syndrome.
Thanks!

Lars S
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 case "syndrome" safety modification Reply with quote

Lars S wrote:
Nice writeup Ray!
Will have good use for this since i have a case with this syndrome.
Thanks!

Lars S


Let us know if it allows the case to work. If it already has damage...I suggest three or four support feet. Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 2:21 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 case "syndrome" safety modification Reply with quote

X2 This is great information, Ray.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:06 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 case "syndrome" safety modification Reply with quote

Hi,

I am facing the exact same 'syndrome'. In addition, the nut stud is broken inside the oil strainer bolt Sad
I will give Ray's fix a try, but I first need to find a new oil pickup bell/tube.
I live in France and I could not find it anywhere. Would you guys be able to direct me to any shop which may have it (anywhere in the World as long as they accept to ship oversea).
Alternatively, does anyone know the Part# ?

I am really stuck.

Help!

David
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 case "syndrome" safety modification Reply with quote

David38 wrote:
Hi,

I am facing the exact same 'syndrome'. In addition, the nut stud is broken inside the oil strainer bolt Sad
I will give Ray's fix a try, but I first need to find a new oil pickup bell/tube.
I live in France and I could not find it anywhere. Would you guys be able to direct me to any shop which may have it (anywhere in the World as long as they accept to ship oversea).
Alternatively, does anyone know the Part# ?

I am really stuck.

Help!

David


I will have the part # in the am. Ebay would probably have it. Ray

EDIT:
There are two part #'s:

021 101 149 .....without the hole to mount the windage tray but it could be added.
To engine # Z 0 017 418
To engine # WO 129 581

021 101 149A ....which has the hole and flat spot that is used to bolt the windage tray to the pickup bell from above.
Used on:
From engine # Z 0 017 419
From engine # WO 129 582
From engind # EA 0 000 001
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:25 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 case "syndrome" safety modification Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
Lars S wrote:
Nice writeup Ray!
Will have good use for this since i have a case with this syndrome.
Thanks!

Lars S


Let us know if it allows the case to work. If it already has damage...I suggest three or four support feet. Ray


Did the two feet support today, it worked wery well thanks to your instructions Ray!
There was no damage to the case but the threads must have stripped since PO had put a Helicoil thread insert in it, looked fine.

Lars S
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Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver Smile
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold Sad
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold Sad
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold Sad
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold Sad
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 case "syndrome" safety modification Reply with quote

Lars S wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
Lars S wrote:
Nice writeup Ray!
Will have good use for this since i have a case with this syndrome.
Thanks!

Lars S


Let us know if it allows the case to work. If it already has damage...I suggest three or four support feet. Ray


Did the two feet support today, it worked wery well thanks to your instructions Ray!
There was no damage to the case but the threads must have stripped since PO had put a Helicoil thread insert in it, looked fine.

Lars S


Very nice!......I had to remind the bus people months back that this does not replace using the right amount of torque. More than about 15-18 ft lbs will literally distort the bell on the bottom of the tube because the feet will not allow it to pull down.

Its really just a safety device to keep all of the real load off of the cross bolt...so at very worst if for some reason torque gets excessive....hou will never damage the case.
Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 case "syndrome" safety modification Reply with quote

$32 REPAIR

BUY 10mm BRASS ROD
BUY 17/64" JOBBER DRILL (4.5" LONG)
LATHE DRILL WITH 17/64" ONE INCH DEEP
NOTCH 1/4" INTO SHANK
2-PART 'J-B WELD' DRILL SHANK INTO HOLE (SET 2 DAYS)
CLEAN BOSS-BREAK OF DEBRIS
PLACE CASE HALVES TOGETHER WITH DIAGONAL BOLTS
PLACE DRILL-IN-ROD THRU - TO BOLT HOLE BOSS
DRIVE ROD WITH 1/2" POWER DRILL SLOWLY THRU OTHER SIDE OF CASE
EVALUATE THREAD AREA POSSIBLE FOR TAPPING TO 8-1.25mm
(MINE WAS INADEQUATE)
CLEAN NEW HOLE AREA INSIDE & OUT WITH SCOTCH-BRITE & ACETONE
PLACE 'PUTTY ALUMINUM EXTERNAL OF HOLE - FLATTEN & DRILL 5/16"
USE 5/16"ALL-THREAD & FENDER WASHER TO FORM-FLATTEN FOR LATER
USE NY-LOCS TO TIGHEN ENOUGH SO PAD FORMS FOR TORQUING LATER
WAIT 2 DAYS
ASSEMBLE SIDE FOR CONTENTS (CYL's, CAM & LIFTER, ETC) 5/16" IN RING
APPLY PERIMETER SEAL, BUTTON UP, TORQUE-UP.........
OIL P/U TUBE WILL NEVER BE COMPROMISED AGAIN

-P- 425806520NINE SEATTLE
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 8:41 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 case "syndrome" safety modification Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
David38 wrote:
Hi,

I am facing the exact same 'syndrome'. In addition, the nut stud is broken inside the oil strainer bolt Sad
I will give Ray's fix a try, but I first need to find a new oil pickup bell/tube.
I live in France and I could not find it anywhere. Would you guys be able to direct me to any shop which may have it (anywhere in the World as long as they accept to ship oversea).
Alternatively, does anyone know the Part# ?

I am really stuck.

Help!

David


I will have the part # in the am. Ebay would probably have it. Ray

EDIT:
There are two part #'s:

021 101 149 .....without the hole to mount the windage tray but it could be added.
To engine # Z 0 017 418
To engine # WO 129 581

021 101 149A ....which has the hole and flat spot that is used to bolt the windage tray to the pickup bell from above.
Used on:
From engine # Z 0 017 419
From engine # WO 129 582
From engine # EA 0 000 001


There seem to be various conflicting sources about whether some VW 411LE engine numbers commence with a single letter-W followed by seven numerical-digits or the two-letters-WO followed by six numerical-digits.

My impression is that VW air-cooled engines generally have six numerical-digit engine numbers, which suggests to me that the engine number commences with WO rather than W!?! Please clarify if possible.
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Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 5:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 case "syndrome" safety modification Reply with quote

NASkeet wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
David38 wrote:
Hi,

I am facing the exact same 'syndrome'. In addition, the nut stud is broken inside the oil strainer bolt Sad
I will give Ray's fix a try, but I first need to find a new oil pickup bell/tube.
I live in France and I could not find it anywhere. Would you guys be able to direct me to any shop which may have it (anywhere in the World as long as they accept to ship oversea).
Alternatively, does anyone know the Part# ?

I am really stuck.

Help!

David


I will have the part # in the am. Ebay would probably have it. Ray

EDIT:
There are two part #'s:

021 101 149 .....without the hole to mount the windage tray but it could be added.
To engine # Z 0 017 418
To engine # WO 129 581

021 101 149A ....which has the hole and flat spot that is used to bolt the windage tray to the pickup bell from above.
Used on:
From engine # Z 0 017 419
From engine # WO 129 582
From engine # EA 0 000 001


There seem to be various conflicting sources about whether some VW 411LE engine numbers commence with a single letter-W followed by seven numerical-digits or the two-letters-WO followed by six numerical-digits.

My impression is that VW air-cooled engines generally have six numerical-digit engine numbers, which suggests to me that the engine number commences with WO rather than W!?! Please clarify if possible.


Actually...I am the cause of this "confusion" in this instance. Laughing

Its actually "W".
The "O"...is not supposed to be an "O"....its a "0" (zero).

In the Haynes manual for 411/412/914...its "W". In the Without guesswork..its "W".

In the 411/412 parts manual....its "W". The "0" was frequently seen because these were the EARLY engines.

There are a lot of discrepancies and oddities with regard to identifying type 4 car parts and engine cases. Most of it comes from people either making a typo like I did...or stating what they believe or have heard without real reference.

Some examples of this (other than the "W" issue):

The statement by many that EA series cases were de-tuned "California" engines. This is not true. Simply look at the production list below from the parts book...and you will see that they are listed at 80 hp DIN and 85 hp SAE.
While its true that they were in effect "smog motors"....meaning they had the charcoal canister and vapor lines for fuel vapor collection and had a PCV valve and system...and possibly slightly different advance unit...but thats about it.

The EB series...as denoted in the Without Guesswork book with a +...is in fact MOSTLY a California emissions engine case....HOWEVER ....IN USAGE...NOT ALWAYS.

It is in fact simply A designated case like the EA.....for emissions control. That level of emissions control varied depending on where it was to be delivered. I have seen ...and owned...EB cases that came on tourist vehicles ...with only EA levels of emissions control.....No smog pump...no dished pistons...no retarded timing...and full 80hp.

It also....most probably depended on the transmission and model as well.

Thats the other issue. Too many people with regard to type 4 CARS...keep trying to exactly identify the engine output and what chassis it belonged in...by the engine case series. Thats actually not a great way to do it.

This is kind of the definitive list of what power plant SPEC (regardless of case number)...went into what with what....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And here on these two pages are the list of all engines to August of 1972 by case and part number...and you can see the 022 series listing at the right side of the page.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is the Without guesswork page from the March 1974 edition:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



As noted...the production survey from start of 411 to August of 1972. Note power output of the EA series.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Ray
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 8:25 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 case "syndrome" safety modification Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
NASkeet wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
David38 wrote:
Hi,

I am facing the exact same 'syndrome'. In addition, the nut stud is broken inside the oil strainer bolt Sad
I will give Ray's fix a try, but I first need to find a new oil pickup bell/tube.
I live in France and I could not find it anywhere. Would you guys be able to direct me to any shop which may have it (anywhere in the World as long as they accept to ship oversea).
Alternatively, does anyone know the Part# ?

I am really stuck.

Help!

David


I will have the part # in the am. Ebay would probably have it. Ray

EDIT:
There are two part #'s:

021 101 149 .....without the hole to mount the windage tray but it could be added.
To engine # Z 0 017 418
To engine # WO 129 581

021 101 149A ....which has the hole and flat spot that is used to bolt the windage tray to the pickup bell from above.
Used on:
From engine # Z 0 017 419
From engine # WO 129 582
From engine # EA 0 000 001


There seem to be various conflicting sources about whether some VW 411LE engine numbers commence with a single letter-W followed by seven numerical-digits or the two-letters-WO followed by six numerical-digits.

My impression is that VW air-cooled engines generally have six numerical-digit engine numbers, which suggests to me that the engine number commences with WO rather than W!?! Please clarify if possible.


Actually...I am the cause of this "confusion" in this instance. Laughing

Its actually "W".
The "O"...is not supposed to be an "O"....its a "0" (zero).

In the Haynes manual for 411/412/914...its "W". In the Without guesswork..its "W".

In the 411/412 parts manual....its "W". The "0" was frequently seen because these were the EARLY engines.

There are a lot of discrepancies and oddities with regard to identifying type 4 car parts and engine cases. Most of it comes from people either making a typo like I did...or stating what they believe or have heard without real reference.

Some examples of this (other than the "W" issue):

The statement by many that EA series cases were de-tuned "California" engines. This is not true. Simply look at the production list below from the parts book...and you will see that they are listed at 80 hp DIN and 85 hp SAE.
While its true that they were in effect "smog motors"....meaning they had the charcoal canister and vapor lines for fuel vapor collection and had a PCV valve and system...and possibly slightly different advance unit...but thats about it.

The EB series...as denoted in the Without Guesswork book with a +...is in fact MOSTLY a California emissions engine case....HOWEVER ....IN USAGE...NOT ALWAYS.

It is in fact simply A designated case like the EA.....for emissions control. That level of emissions control varied depending on where it was to be delivered. I have seen ...and owned...EB cases that came on tourist vehicles ...with only EA levels of emissions control.....No smog pump...no dished pistons...no retarded timing...and full 80hp.

It also....most probably depended on the transmission and model as well.

Thats the other issue. Too many people with regard to type 4 CARS...keep trying to exactly identify the engine output and what chassis it belonged in...by the engine case series. Thats actually not a great way to do it.

This is kind of the definitive list of what power plant SPEC (regardless of case number)...went into what with what....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And here on these two pages are the list of all engines to August of 1972 by case and part number...and you can see the 022 series listing at the right side of the page.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is the Without guesswork page from the March 1974 edition:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



As noted...the production survey from start of 411 to August of 1972. Note power output of the EA series.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Ray


I need to look into to this further, particularly the engine number, crankcase part numbers and other identifying marks.

I looked in my second-hand copy (bought from my local public library) of the Haynes manual for the VW 411 & 412. In the two chapters dealing with fuel injection and ignition systems, one finds references to W-series engines and engine numbers up to or from a given engine number commencing WO.

The 1911 cc hybrid engine for my 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental motor-caravan (as defined by DVLA), is based upon the engine originating from a circa 1971 VW 411LE Variant (i.e. estate car / station wagon) with manual transmission and Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection, whose engine number either commences with WO or W0, so I am trying to clarify exact details before I update with DVLA, my Registration Document V5C regarding my change of residential address from Canvey Island, Essex to South Benfleet, Essex, together with other information which is either incorrect or has been omitted.

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/driver-and-vehicle-licensing-agency

https://www.gov.uk/tell-dvla-changed-address

https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-details-registration-certificate

https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-details-registration-certificate/what-evidence-to-give

https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-details-registration-certificate/how-to-tell-dvla
_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper

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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 9:24 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 case "syndrome" safety modification Reply with quote

So....you have a 1971 type 2.....that originally came with a type 1 1600.....and now has a 1911 based/built on a type 4 case?

Understand.....if the engine came from a type 4 car....thats a 411, 412 or 914.....there was never to my knowledge....a "WO" series.

It is "W" _ "0". That is "W" (space) "0".....and thats a zero and not an "o".

Look carefully in the factory type 4 parts book pages I posted. There is a apce between W and the zero.
The fact that cases are hand stamped and spacing gets sloppy is irrelevent. There is no WO series.

These are marked with "0" right after the W...because W was pretty much the beginning series as V series was only in 1968/1969 Euro/German production with twin carbs and 200mm clutch.
The first real export year of 411 with W case was 1970

In all of these cars.....typically the first number right after the letter code.....is the year model. The W series for example in a 1972 914 with 1.7L...would show "W 2".

I believe the Z series were limited edition magnesium cases. Ray
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NASkeet
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 8:24 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 case "syndrome" safety modification Reply with quote

Where do the UNIT NUMBERS (e.g. 022:1, 022:2, 022:3 & 022:4) appear on the vehicle or engine?

Back in 1990, be bought the engine from one of my father's patients who had it in a shed, so we didn't see the car from which it had been salvaged. There were no cover-plates or fan-housing.

I looked at the crankcase today, which bears the engine number WO140122 or W0140122 without any noticeable variation in spacing between the characters. There is some faded blue lettering on the cast aluminium crankcase-breather chamber, ending with a large letter-B.

The left-hand and right-hand halves of the crankcase, bear the part numbers 004.101.101A and 004.101.102A.

I Have yet to check the part numbers on the original VW 1700 Type 4 cylinder heads, which are no longer on this engine!

Judging from the oil-filler tube and crankcase breather box with just white-plastic valve & connection spigot to the cylinder heads, the engine came from a Variant (i.e. estate car / station wagon).

From the list of dates and engine numbers on the pages you posted, it appears that my engine probably came from an early VW 412LE built some time between 1st August 1971 and December 1971.

I have another VW Type 4 style engine, with crankcase & fan-housing bearing the engine number AP002767X, originating from a British specification 1974 VW 1800 Type 2 panel-van with twin Solex carburettors.

I broke the 1974 VW 1800 Type 2 panel-van for spares during the early-1990s; keeping the transaxle for use in my 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental motor-caravan.

I have used the VW 1800 Type 2 cylinder heads in conjunction with the 96 mm bore cylinder barrels and VW 411/412 crankcase.

My original 1973 VW 1600 Type 2 engine number was AD617910, which I sold as a short-engine in early-1993 for £200.
_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper

Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)

http://www.vwt2oc.net


Last edited by NASkeet on Mon May 20, 2019 8:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 case "syndrome" safety modification Reply with quote

NASkeet wrote:
Where do the Unit Numbers appear?

Back in 1990, be bought the engine from one of my father's patients who had it in a shed, so we didn't see the car from which it had been salvaged. There were no cover-plates or fan-housing.

I looked at the crankcase today, which bears the engine number WO140122 or W0140122 without any noticeable variation in spacing between the characters. There is some faded blue lettering on the cast aluminium crankcase-breather chamber, ending with a large letter-B.

The left-hand and right-hand halves of the crankcase, bear the part numbers 004.101.101A and 004.101.102A.

I Have yet to check the part numbers on the original VW 1700 Type 4 cylinder heads, which are no longer on this engine!

Judging from the oil-filler tube and crankcase breather box with just white-plastic valve & connection spigot to the cylinder heads, the engine came from a Variant (i.e. estate car / station wagon).

From the list of dates and engine numbers on the pages you posted, it appears that my engine probably came from an early VW 412LE built some time between 1st August 1971 and December 1971.

I have another VW Type 4 style engine, with crankcase & fan-housing bearing the engine number AP002767X, originating from a British specification 1974 VW 1800 Type 2 panel-van with twin Solex carburettors.

I broke the 1974 VW 1800 Type 2 panel-van for spares during the early-1990s; keeping the transaxle for use in my 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental motor-caravan.

I have used the VW 1800 Type 2 cylinder heads in conjunction with the 96 mm bore cylinder barrels and VW 411/412 crankcase.

My original 1973 VW 1600 Type 2 engine number was AD617910, which I sold as a short-engine in early-1993 for £200.


From the production survey..... your case number was made sometime between August and December of 1971.

Ray
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NASkeet
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 8:06 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 case "syndrome" safety modification Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
NASkeet wrote:
Where do the Unit Numbers appear?

Back in 1990, be bought the engine from one of my father's patients who had it in a shed, so we didn't see the car from which it had been salvaged. There were no cover-plates or fan-housing.

I looked at the crankcase today, which bears the engine number WO140122 or W0140122 without any noticeable variation in spacing between the characters. There is some faded blue lettering on the cast aluminium crankcase-breather chamber, ending with a large letter-B.

The left-hand and right-hand halves of the crankcase, bear the part numbers 004.101.101A and 004.101.102A.

I Have yet to check the part numbers on the original VW 1700 Type 4 cylinder heads, which are no longer on this engine!

Judging from the oil-filler tube and crankcase breather box with just white-plastic valve & connection spigot to the cylinder heads, the engine came from a Variant (i.e. estate car / station wagon).

From the list of dates and engine numbers on the pages you posted, it appears that my engine probably came from an early VW 412LE built some time between 1st August 1971 and December 1971.

I have another VW Type 4 style engine, with crankcase & fan-housing bearing the engine number AP002767X, originating from a British specification 1974 VW 1800 Type 2 panel-van with twin Solex carburettors.

I broke the 1974 VW 1800 Type 2 panel-van for spares during the early-1990s; keeping the transaxle for use in my 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental motor-caravan.

I have used the VW 1800 Type 2 cylinder heads in conjunction with the 96 mm bore cylinder barrels and VW 411/412 crankcase.

My original 1973 VW 1600 Type 2 engine number was AD617910, which I sold as a short-engine in early-1993 for £200.


From the production survey..... your case number was made sometime between August and December of 1971.

Ray


British specification 1971/72 VW 411/412, 1679 cm³ engine with Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection - W0140122

Cylinder head 021 101 371J | Inlet 39•3 mm & Exhaust 33 mm | plain CHT boss | breather spigot

Cylinder head 021 101 371J | Inlet 39•3 mm & Exhaust 33 mm | CHT boss with M10 x 1•0 mm threaded hole | breather spigot


British specification 1974/75 VW 1800 Type 2, 1795 cm³ engine with twin Solex carburettors - AP002767X and mismatched cylinder heads:

Cylinder head 021 101 371S | Inlet 41 mm & Exhaust 34 mm | plain CHT boss | NO breather spigot

Cylinder head 022 101 371J | Inlet 39•3 mm & Exhaust 33 mm | CHT boss with M10 x 1•0 mm threaded hole | NO breather spigot


British specification 1974/75 VW 1800 Type 2, 1795 cm³ engine with twin Solex carburettors - another AP-series engine:

Cylinder head 021 101 371S | Inlet 41 mm & Exhaust 34 mm | plain CHT boss | NO breather spigot

Cylinder head 021 101 371S | Inlet 41 mm & Exhaust 34 mm | plain CHT boss | NO breather spigot


British specification 1980~83 VW 2000 Type 25 (i.e. Vanagon), 1970 cm³ engine with twin Solex carburettors - engine number unknown

Cylinder head 071 101 371A | Inlet 39•3 mm & Exhaust 33 mm | plain CHT boss | NO breather spigot

Cylinder head 071 101 371A | Inlet 39•3 mm & Exhaust 33 mm | plain CHT boss | NO breather spigot
_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper

Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)

http://www.vwt2oc.net
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GARRICK.CLARK
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:45 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 case "syndrome" safety modification Reply with quote

Hi, I have a rebuild in at the moment, it has a cracked boss, The sump nut must have been torqued too much which has pulled the boss down and cracked it both sides, question is can it be welded without causing the cam journal and follower boss to move out of place.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 case "syndrome" safety modification Reply with quote

GARRICK.CLARK wrote:
Hi, I have a rebuild in at the moment, it has a cracked boss, The sump nut must have been torqued too much which has pulled the boss down and cracked it both sides, question is can it be welded without causing the cam journal and follower boss to move out of place.


Its a crap shoot...50/50 in my experiece.

This is precisely one of the uses of the modification in this thread. If when the case is bolted together...you have no light/gap between case halves at the cam bearing boss...you do not even need this bolt....so no point in repairing it.

The cross bolt is "mainly" the suspending and locating point for the pick up bell. Being as long as it is and with the milled gap for the loop on the bell....how much compression/clamping it is lending to the case is a question.

The mod in the thread turns that cross bolt into just a centering and locating point and takes all of the load off the bolt. Ray
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GARRICK.CLARK
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 case "syndrome" safety modification Reply with quote

Great thanks.
We'll. I'm welding legs to the oil pick up. Using the original pick up pipe boss as a locator with a counter sunk screw to bolt in to the boss with very little torque, and then drill and tap for a 1/4 plug the opposite case half cross bolt hole so I can plug it. They often leak oil from those cross bolts
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