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OldSpice
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2015
Posts: 178
Location: 87 syncro westfalia Subaru ez30
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 Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:58 am Post subject: two cylinder big brakes or one? |
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I am looking to upgrade brakes. I asked two different VW shops about it, both swore by different components. I was hoping to find a thread on this already but didnt. Here is my guess... : two cylinders are stronger but one cylinder is easier to find parts for if they break???
Whats the scoop?
If it matters, my westy is big fast and heavy.  |
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IdahoDoug
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 10251
Location: N. Idaho
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:50 am Post subject: Re: two cylinder big brakes or one? |
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Do a search here. One of the most discussed topics of late.
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16505
Location: Brookeville, MD
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IdahoDoug
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 10251
Location: N. Idaho
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:58 am Post subject: Re: two cylinder big brakes or one? |
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And dont make # of cylinders any part of the decision. No advantage per se.
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:32 am Post subject: Re: two cylinder big brakes or one? |
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Well, I do not agree with what is being posted.
The Girling 60 twin piston calipers are superior, due to the fact that they match the original specs much better than the other BBKs available.
If you read various brake threads, a well known and respected member of our community, I will call him Christopher, has explained why we want to match the existing specs with our upgrade of choice.
Small Car performance sells a "kit" featuring the Girling60 calipers for those who are looking for bolt on and go.
Yes, you can purchase all of the parts and have the modifications done locally to save some coin.
David Marshall was the first to bring this upgrade to the attention of Vanagon owners, to give credit, where credit is due.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1381302
DO NOT use washers as a spacer 
Flat stock must be used to create the proper spacer for use in the US.
Most of my vans feature this Girling 60 brake upgrade.
I have also dialed in matching rear disc brakes...with an excellent working parking brake.
All of the information is available here on the Samba with some searching.
Current threads show that may love the G60s and what they have done to further personalize the pedal feel.
I hope this post helps.
Take the time to read all that you can find about the Girling 60s, they are an excellent choice for upgraded brakes on any Vanagon
 Pre 86 Vanagon models will need further upgrades to mount the G60s, also covered in various threads |
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17155
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:24 am Post subject: Re: two cylinder big brakes or one? |
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I prefer a caliper with opposing pistons. The early vanagons had that setup. I don't have a problem with single piston calipers, but they do depend on proper working caliper carriers which are exposed to the elements. Piston sizing is just as important as the number of pistons when you are staying with the stock master cylinder. There is some math involved beyond the just the piston diameter and volume when sizing front brakes. Tilton used to have a work sheet on their website that include corner weights and front axle weight with the rear jacked off the ground.
If you are unsure, it is probably best to stick with those that have put some kits together. Christopher from T3 is extremely knowledgeable about brake balance. If he makes a recommendation, I would follow his advice. Brakes are not something you want to "learn" with. Its not the day to day braking or the long down grades that are problematic. It is more what happens in a panic stop. Is the vehicle controllable? Good luck.
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Jeff's Old Volks Home
Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2011
Posts: 819
Location: Chester Basin, Nova Scotia
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:51 am Post subject: Re: two cylinder big brakes or one? |
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| insyncro wrote: |
Well, I do not agree with what is being posted.
The Girling 60 twin piston calipers are superior, due to the fact that they match the original specs much better than the other BBKs available.
If you read various brake threads, a well known and respected member of our community, I will call him Christopher, has explained why we want to match the existing specs with our upgrade of choice.
Small Car performance sells a "kit" featuring the Girling60 calipers for those who are looking for bolt on and go.
Yes, you can purchase all of the parts and have the modifications done locally to save some coin.
David Marshall was the first to bring this upgrade to the attention of Vanagon owners, to give credit, where credit is due.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1381302
DO NOT use washers as a spacer
Flat stock must be used to create the proper spacer for use in the US.
Most of my vans feature this Girling 60 brake upgrade.
I have also dialed in matching rear disc brakes...with an excellent working parking brake.
All of the information is available here on the Samba with some searching.
Current threads show that may love the G60s and what they have done to further personalize the pedal feel.
I hope this post helps.
Take the time to read all that you can find about the Girling 60s, they are an excellent choice for upgraded brakes on any Vanagon
Pre 86 Vanagon models will need further upgrades to mount the G60s, also covered in various threads |
I agree...
_________________
www.jeffsoldvolkshome.com
2004 Jetta TDi Wagon
2002 Smyth Ute TDi
1990 Vanagon weekender Syncro AAZ
1987 Syncro Doka AAZ...soon to be TDI 
2014 DL650ABS Xpedition
1986 Weekender Syncro (Under construction)
1987 Westfalia (Under construction)
1987 Syncro Single cab |
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OldSpice
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2015
Posts: 178
Location: 87 syncro westfalia Subaru ez30
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: two cylinder big brakes or one? |
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| thx, havenet found much for the debate tho. |
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OldSpice
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2015
Posts: 178
Location: 87 syncro westfalia Subaru ez30
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:30 am Post subject: Re: two cylinder big brakes or one? |
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| someone throw me a bone? |
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Forthwithtx
Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2014
Posts: 717
Location: Fort Worth
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:38 pm Post subject: Re: two cylinder big brakes or one? |
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FWIW, the GoWesty kit is a single piston setup. I don't know what their rationale was for selecting it. The issue concerning volume of fluid required to actuate the calipers properly is valid. The G60's are a good match in that regard.
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'84 GL with 2001/2004 Subaru 2.5L |
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OldSpice
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2015
Posts: 178
Location: 87 syncro westfalia Subaru ez30
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: two cylinder big brakes or one? |
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so what I gather is... it doesent matter  |
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Zeitgeist 13
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Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: two cylinder big brakes or one? |
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I have four piston calipers on the front of my van, along with the stock master and vacuum booster. It has a nice firm pedal with excellent bite and no fade.
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Christopher Schimke
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Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: two cylinder big brakes or one? |
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| OldSpice wrote: |
| so what I gather is... it doesent matter |
What matters most is that the combined area of the piston(s) is matched to the rest of the system to ensure proper pedal feel and travel.
Beyond that, calipers that have multiple pistons per side (ie; more than one piston per side of the caliper. This could be two or more pistons on only one side of the caliper or two or more pistons on both sides of the caliper opposing each each other), tend to help even out pad wear and distribute the forces more evenly along the pad than occurs when only one piston is pushing against the pad.
Calipers that have multiple pistons that oppose each other tend to be stiffer compared to calipers with pistons (or piston singular in the case of a single caliper) on only one side of the caliper. This equates to more force applied to pads for the same/equal leg effort and tends to create a better pedal feel.
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"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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OldSpice
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2015
Posts: 178
Location: 87 syncro westfalia Subaru ez30
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:22 am Post subject: Re: two cylinder big brakes or one? |
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| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
| OldSpice wrote: |
| so what I gather is... it doesent matter |
Calipers that have multiple pistons that oppose each other tend to be stiffer compared to calipers with pistons (or piston singular in the case of a single caliper) on only one side of the caliper. This equates to more force applied to pads for the same/equal leg effort and tends to create a better pedal feel. |
so multiple pistons stop van with less effort on pedal? I like the sound of that... |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:09 am Post subject: Re: two cylinder big brakes or one? |
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| OldSpice wrote: |
so multiple pistons stop van with less effort on pedal? I like the sound of that... |
No, not always. That statement is too simple. There is a lot more to it than that. Hydraulic ratios, rotor sizes, caliper stiffness, caliper piston size(s), pad compounds, pedal leverage, boost size and on and on. Every aspect of the braking system comes into play in determining what stops the van better with less pedal effort.
All I was saying is that generally speaking, calipers that have opposing pistons (not simply multiple piston calipers, but calipers that have opposing pistons) are stiffer than calipers that have pistons on only one side regardless of the quantity. A stiffer caliper transfers the force of the hydraulic system more efficiently because less of the effort to push the pedal is lost in caliper flex. When you have a caliper that is not all that stiff, much of the effort that you put into pushing on the brake pedal is used up overcoming the flex in the caliper. This reduces the amount of force that is transferred to the pad. So with a flexible caliper, you need to push harder on the brake pedal to get the same force on the brake pads compared to stiffer caliper.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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