2.0L EFI Engine Install --- Won't Run

[smitty1976bus]

Hi All!

I have a 1978 VW Westy, and recently installed the original 2.0L fuel injection engine back into it. It's been out of the bus for about 3-4 years. I originally bought the bus from someone last year, and then persuaded the same person to sell me the engine (original to the bus, which he wanted for a dune buggy project) last July. The engine had the heads resurfaced, and new gaskets put in, so compression is good. Anyway that’s some back ground on it...

I put the engine in, and buttoned everything up, but now I can't get the thing to start. I was hoping someone might be able to steer me in the right direction before I start spending a lot of money on things that aren’t broken; I'm fresh out of college and have zero dollars (just about).

Ignition system: New points, gapped at .4mm, new condenser, new wires, new plugs. I put the distributer in, and found top dead center (using the pencil in the #1 cyl. spark plug hole, and spin the engine until it’s at its highest point, method) I found that I have the one groove crank pulley, which I guess is marked at 5 after top dead center.. For whatever reason. So I set my distributor to point at the #1 cyl. at 7.5 degrees before TDC. Is this correct? The manual says it should be set at 7.5, but that's when it's running, so should i do the same when it's not, or just set it at 0, total TDC?

Electrical system: I believe I have it all wired up correctly. Below I have the coils wiring diagram. Sorry for the crude set up, I don’t have the original coil; I substituted one I had lying around. It’s good though, it came from a running V8. Are all coils the same? Will this make a difference?

Ok…. My double relay wasn’t working, and looked like it was sitting in salt water, and I don’t have $100 to buy a new one…. So… I made one with relays I had laying around. I am both proud and embarrassed about this, but it works, so I’m happy. If I get the engine running, I’ll but a new relay, I just want to make sure the EFI works. Using the diagram below, everything turns on and off when it should.

I have the head temp sensor set up; it gives out good ohms, so it’s ok.

Everything else seems hooked up correctly too, the air flow meter, ECM, etc.

Fuel system: This is where I think I have a problem. The fuel pump is the original, and seems grimy, but it works when I power it up, so I went with it. I haven’t tested the PSI of the FI system, because I can’t get the engine to run, but I tested the volume the pump pumps in 30 seconds. I read somewhere that it should pump 1 liter in the 30 seconds, but it looks like mine is only pumping half that.

Also, I tested the series resistor block, to see if the injectors fire properly. I’ve learned that the injectors have a constant 12 volts, and the ECM disrupts that voltage, and when that happens, the injector…injects fuel. But how do I test this?? I used a test strobe light, and the light dimmed a little bit, but it didn’t look like it actually broke a circuit. Is that ok??


Link


Here are some other pictures of the engine bay. I have all the vacuum lines hooked up too, of which I think is correct.

Any information on where to go from here would be awesome. I’m not the best with VW’s, well this is my first one, so not sure what to do. Guess my questions are: Can I use any coil? My coil on there gets really hot, is that normal? Should my fuel pump be able to pump more fuel? Should the series resistors disrupt the circuit to the injectors, or just dim it?

Smitty

[busdaddy]

Scored a deal on red wire eh?, creative, as long as it's following the diagram I guess it's not the problem yet.

I don't see a timing scale on your shroud, the single mark on a type 4 pulley is 0 but it has to line up with the scale, the case split would put it ~ 30 ATDC, have a look at this: http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FindTimingMark.html
That coil may be OK but it likely needs a ballast resistor, better check that out before it goes up in smoke.
The ballast resistor supplies a constant ~5 volts to the injectors, the ECU grounds them intermittantly when it's time for gas.

Aside from a whole lot of cooling leaks the rest doesn't look horrifying, get it running but deal with the visible road from above soon.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.

Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

Слава Україні!

[Tcash]

cranks won't start
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=535382&highligh

Finding TDC
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6617648#6617648

Good luck
Tcash

[my59]

In the photo showing the S boot, what is the unconnected brown ground wire for? Got all the other grounds tight?
The first time I started mine after a rebuild I static timed cyl 1 with a test light to make sure it was close to where it should be, but I had a timing scale to work with.
Do you have a clean fuel filter on the system?
With the key on does the fuel pump run when the flap on the AFM is pushed open? If so you can put a pressure gauge on the test port and see what it the basic pressure is.

I wired my kids 64 Wheel Horse lawn tractor lights with red wire; since the tractor is red why not color match the paint job?
_________________
my59: Well son, my grandfather died before I got to drive it, so does that answer your question?
our79: sunroof bus w/camper interior and 2.0 FI
Other:'12 Jetta, '77 Benz 300D, and a 74 MG Midget.

[rusty busty]

[sjbartnik]

You can test fuel pressure without the engine running, though I'm not sure that's your problem. Even with insufficient fuel pressure I would think it would at least cough, sputter, and try to start even if it won't actually run.

If everything is wired up correctly, the fuel pump will only run when the starter is operating. When the engine starts, the flap inside the AFM moves and lets a set of contacts close which keeps power going to the fuel pump relay which keeps the fuel pump running. So to test fuel pressure with engine not running, you can either use some sort of rod inserted into the AFM to move the flap and make the pump run with ignition on, or you can just jumper a hot wire over to the double relay to trip the fuel pump relay with ignition on.

Test fuel pressure at the test port on the fuel rail in the engine compartment.

Based on your pics my best guess at where the problem lies is in your homemade double relay wiring. You've told us it's ok but we have no way to verify it so you need to double, triple, and quadruple check that. You hacked it, so that's most likely where the problem is.

The type of crimp connectors you used are notoriously terrible so really go over everything there and make sure it's correct and making good connection.
_________________
1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650

[curtp07]

Having just rehabilitated my own 75 FI system from a working (but not very well) original system I will tell you what I did.

As everyone else mentioned..the wiring additions are where I would look first. One bad connection or ground...

But for me - and I didn't necessarily have the money to do this, but I did it in little steps to save HOURS of aggravation.

1. I had my wiring harness completely rebuilt by Kyle. This way it would be almost out of the question when reassembling.
2. My fuel pump/relay wiring was rebuilt by him as well..another system solved.
3. All of my injectors were removed and rebuilt.
4. New fuel pressure regulator.
5.Cleaned up the resistor pack.
6. All new hoses from germansupply

Then I built up a fuel pressure gauge to install on the fuel rail.

First - turn the ignition key on - move the AFM flap and watch the fuel pressure build. Let it sit and watch the pressure..if it loses pressure quickly probably pressure regulator - or - pump....

Make sure all the injectors are firing.

Go through the FI troubleshooting guide...completely...

Check your grounds...

Like Miyagi said...about karate and walking the middle of the road...I kinda figured with the FI either go all in and make it new or ....SQUISH..like grape.
_________________
Subaru

[johnsilverlakes]

I didn't see where you've verified that you're getting spark from the coil. I'd start there...
_________________
1976 Westfalia
Manual Transmission
Federal Emissions

[aeromech]

This is such a mess right now that if it was me I'd go back and take baby steps. What I mean by that is I would first go for the basics. Forget the double relay right now. I'd just want to see if I could get the engine to fire. Even if I got it to run and die I'd be happy. I'd get the timing close but not worry about it being exact. I'd check for vacuum leaks with a smoke tester. I'd get a noid light and make sure all my injectors were firing as well as my 5th injector (cold start). I'd put a gauge on the fuel rail and make sure I had some kind of pressure.

Once I did all those baby steps I'd go back and work on the details
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound

[Sawspa]

Make sure your diizzy isnt 180 out. Easy check, and fix.
_________________
1978 Westfalia Campmobile 2.0L oversized ham heads and a stepped up cam, running points and a 76 exhaust "Lefty Loosy"

[timvw7476]

Like Sawspa said/typed, if it isn't popping or snorting, just cranks
and does nothing, check the distributor set up, if your plugs are wet with
fuel after one of your cranking sessions, start there.
If your plugs are bone-dry after cranking, well, you do have fuel deliver issues to the injectors.

[SGKent]

lots of mechanics try to hit the home run ball. Unless each step is checked as engine is built the result is usually a strike out followed by 20 shotgun blasts trying to find the problem.. Aeromech hit the ball on the head with try for baby steps. You need 3 things to make that engine fire - spark, properly proportioned fuel/air, and compression. One or more is missing. Go back and look at each one until you are sure you have it. Example - the cam and distributor make 2 revolutions per one the crank makes. This means the #1 piston comes up twice per cycle. It is easy to be TDC on the wrong one. The only way to know is to watch the valves. At one of the two TDC both valves will be closed.

Also - a T4 head is really hard to find the exact TDC with a pencil because of the angle. You need a timing gauge. They attach to the shroud.

Aluminum timing scale. The originals are black plastic.

T4 plug angle.

_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[smitty1976bus]

Awesome, thanks for all the replies! I had to work late today, and when I got home to work on the bus, it was around 15 degrees (Fahrenheit). When I tried to turn over the engine, it was turning very slowly. The battery was showing 12 volts, (or 11.5), but I'm wondering what it reads under a load. So i stuck it on the charger, and am going to being it to AutoZone in the a.m. to test out. Not sure if that will make a difference or not.


Link


As for tonight, I'm far too tired to work out in the freezing cold, so I'll rest up and hit it hard tomorrow. I'd love to hear it run this weekend. I'll check back, with updates on everyhting soon. Thanks again, I love the Samba!

Smitty

[aeromech]

You're going to need more juice. You might try retarding the timing too.
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound

[sjbartnik]

[smitty1976bus]

Got up early and begain working on the bus again. Brought my battery to Advanced Auto, and they tested it, and it’s fine; in great shape. So I put it back in my bus, and it cranked a lot better… But still no fire.

[my59]

The FI manual is here in the technical section. There is a test you can run on the double relay, the side that connects to the resistor pack. I had a double relay that the fuel pump side was fine and the other not so much. Drove me nuts for a while till I isolated the issue. While I was doing that I so tested all the pin connections in the EFI brain to make sure it was not a problem with a cracked solder joint in the box, and that all the wires were secure in the resistor pack. It was the relay, combined with the ground wire being loose inside the plastic relay connection.

I usually dont drive the bus in the winter, but have had to occasionally; I put an oil filled type space heater under the engine to warm it up, as the 20 50 oil gets a little thick when it is 0 in the barn. The heater and a charger on the battery help a lot.
_________________
my59: Well son, my grandfather died before I got to drive it, so does that answer your question?
our79: sunroof bus w/camper interior and 2.0 FI
Other:'12 Jetta, '77 Benz 300D, and a 74 MG Midget.

[sjbartnik]

You've established that the fuel pump runs when you turn the ignition on and move the flap in the AFM but have you established that it runs when the starter is operating?

OK, so the injectors get power from terminal 88b on the double relay. That should be a single wire which runs to the series resistors (a/k/a ballast resistors) on the firewall.

The ballast resistors drop the voltage from battery voltage to around 5v or so if I recall correctly. Then when the injectors are supposed to fire, the ECU grounds them internally.

So if you were to pull the plug off one of the injectors you should see some voltage relative to ground on the terminal from the ballast resistors (again by memory this is around 5v but refer to Bentley) and the other side you should see no voltage and also no continuity to ground.

All four injectors fire at the same time.

The ECU knows when to fire the injectors because of a wire connected to the coil. There should be a white wire from the FI harness that connects to terminal 1 on the ignition coil. This is the same terminal that the condensor wire (usually green) connects to.

So to test whether injectors are getting the signal to fire, you can pull the plug from an injector, take a test light and put one probe on each terminal in the plug. With ignition on you should see nothing from the test lamp. When cranking the engine the test lamp should flicker dimly as the ECU switches ground on and off for the injectors (dimly because it's not a full 12v for your presumably 12v test light). (this test works fine with a test light that has an incandescent bulb but if you have some fancy electronic or LED test light that needs 12v to function at all or is polarity-sensitive, it may not work for this test.)

If you're not getting a flicker as you crank that means the ECU is not switching ground for some reason. Before you claim "bad ECU" you have a few other things to check.

1) remove ECU plug and check continuity of wire from coil terminal 1 to ECU plug terminal 1. If that wire is broken ECU never gets rpm signal.

2) remove ECU plug and make sure that you're getting 12v into the ECU on terminal 10 of ECU plug - this is the wire from 88b on the double relay. If ECU isn't getting power, it can't do shit.

3) Check ECU ground. There are 3 white wires from ECU plug terminals 16, 17, and one other that I can't make out on the diagram. These all come together in a connector and coming out of the connector is a single brown wire which goes to ground. Trace that out and make sure you have a solid corrosion-free ground connection. If the ECU isn't grounded then it can't ground the injectors and they won't fire.

I believe that the FI system grounds to one of the case bolts under the intake air distributor. So that means your engine/transaxle need to be grounded well too. Check the condition of the ground strap between the transaxle and the body. That needs to be in place and in good condition.
_________________
1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650

[smitty1976bus]

[timvw7476]

You're getting there.
One thing, actually four, those spark plugs have plenty
of aluminum-based anti-seize on their threads,
I have had issues with aluminum based stuff on the threads,
it tends to migrate to the ground electrodes and then mis-fire galore.
If you have ANY old ones around, clean them off, there's already
enough anti-seize on the cylinder threads to last you through a few
plug changes.
I switched to copper-based anti-seize, just a 1/2 BB sized portion per plug,
applied three threads away from the combustion end of the plug. No
more mis-fire worries for me after that.