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WithTheFlow
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2016
Posts: 197
Location: Wisconsin
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 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: My First Bus / 1970 / Non Walk Through / Bench Seats |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
 You can mix small amounts of epoxy primer and apply it with a cheap brush, rattle can primer isn't much of an improvement over nothing at all. |
My intention was to protect it from surface rust. I was going to prime the bus altogether at once. Do you think its a better idea to do it as I go instead?
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The fastest thing you can do is slow down.
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-- The Alchemist” |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: My First Bus / 1970 / Non Walk Through / Bench Seats |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| You can mix small amounts of epoxy primer and apply it with a cheap brush, rattle can primer isn't much of an improvement over nothing at all. |
Actually one of those 3 inch wide rollers is even better. There is some body shop supply company, (3M maybe?) that markets such a system. This will free up a paint booth in a commercial facility. (no overspray, no VOC compliance worries.)
Rattle can primer is almost counter productive. some rattle can topcoats come off easily with carb cleaner spray (Gumout worked well for me) or maybe lacquer thinner. You need to keep the oxygen off the bare steel.
Al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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WithTheFlow
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2016
Posts: 197
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: My First Bus / 1970 / Non Walk Through / Bench Seats |
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| 69doublecab wrote: |
Rattle can primer is almost counter productive.
Al |
Why is rattle can primer counter productive?
_________________
The fastest thing you can do is slow down.
“The secret is here in the present. If you pay attention to the present, you can improve upon it. And, if you improve on the present, what comes later will also be better."
-- The Alchemist” |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: My First Bus / 1970 / Non Walk Through / Bench Seats |
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| WithTheFlow wrote: |
| 69doublecab wrote: |
Rattle can primer is almost counter productive.
Al |
Why is rattle can primer counter productive? |
Primer, not just rattle can, but all primer is made to increase adhesion. It does the same with water molecules. Increases rust. AFAIK, only epoxy primer creates a seal between the parent metal and the top coats. DP 40/90 was always the best. I suppose other companies make it as well.
Al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51131
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: My First Bus / 1970 / Non Walk Through / Bench Seats |
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Yes, single part primer (especially the spray bomb stuff) is pourous, you need to seal off the metal and filler so no moisture can get at it.
Foam brushes from Home depot work for about 3 minutes, if you just have a little area to do it's an option, the rollers last a little longer. Ones specifically for solvent based coatings would be even better. You'll be sanding it anyways so a few brush marks are far better than taking it all off and treating rust.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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WithTheFlow
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2016
Posts: 197
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: My First Bus / 1970 / Non Walk Through / Bench Seats |
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Thank you both! I have a better understanding of it now! I will be sure to pick up some epoxy primer asap
_________________
The fastest thing you can do is slow down.
“The secret is here in the present. If you pay attention to the present, you can improve upon it. And, if you improve on the present, what comes later will also be better."
-- The Alchemist” |
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WithTheFlow
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2016
Posts: 197
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: My First Bus / 1970 / Non Walk Through / Bench Seats |
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Research Conclusion
Please look over my rust repair plan
Cut off a rusty panel
Clean all metal to be welded with wax and grease remover
Grind Down to bare metal
Weld in new panel
Grind Down welds
Sand
Clean again with wax and grease remover
Put on 2 coats of epoxy primer (SPI or PPG?)
Put on high build primer
I plan on using a DIY paint booth or outdoor garage. I may put it inside my barn garage. I would use a filter and need to find a way to keep it warm in there.
After I finish all my metal work would it be wise to have the whole bus media blasted and primed?
_________________
The fastest thing you can do is slow down.
“The secret is here in the present. If you pay attention to the present, you can improve upon it. And, if you improve on the present, what comes later will also be better."
-- The Alchemist” |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:45 pm Post subject: Re: My First Bus / 1970 / Non Walk Through / Bench Seats |
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One step you missed:
Treat all bare metal with phosphoric acid. You can skip this if you use etch primer over the bare metal.
I love the phosphoric acid treatment. It converts the iron oxide to iron phosphate and definitely slows down rusting.
Al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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WithTheFlow
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2016
Posts: 197
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:03 am Post subject: Re: My First Bus / 1970 / Non Walk Through / Bench Seats |
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| 69doublecab wrote: |
One step you missed:
Treat all bare metal with phosphoric acid. You can skip this if you use etch primer over the bare metal.
I love the phosphoric acid treatment. It converts the iron oxide to iron phosphate and definitely slows down rusting.
Al |
Thank you Al,
I should probably neutralize the metal before applying the epoxy primer then right?
_________________
The fastest thing you can do is slow down.
“The secret is here in the present. If you pay attention to the present, you can improve upon it. And, if you improve on the present, what comes later will also be better."
-- The Alchemist” |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:30 am Post subject: Re: My First Bus / 1970 / Non Walk Through / Bench Seats |
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Yes. Don't know the best source. It's a little harder to find because of the common use of etch primer. Dupont and PPG used to sell it in gallons concentrated then you mixed water with it like 2 to 1. So you buy 1 gallon, you end up with 3 ready to apply.
You also need to wash it off and dry it so it leaves no loose residue.
Manufacturers dip the parts in this stuff at the beginning of the paint process.
Any good suggestions for sources would be appreciated.
Al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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orwell84
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007
Posts: 2536
Location: Plattsburgh, New York
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:48 am Post subject: Re: My First Bus / 1970 / Non Walk Through / Bench Seats |
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| I would think you would be ok with rattle can primer for what you are doing; temporary rust prevention until you return to the area for finishing. You would likely be taking the area down to the bare metal again anyway for filling and prep. Any tiny amount of rust that might occur in that time would easily be taken care of during this stage. I you feel better about using an epoxy primer, go ahead. I don't think you can go wrong either way. |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:07 am Post subject: Re: My First Bus / 1970 / Non Walk Through / Bench Seats |
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| orwell84 wrote: |
| I would think you would be ok with rattle can primer for what you are doing; temporary rust prevention until you return to the area for finishing. You would likely be taking the area down to the bare metal again anyway for filling and prep. Any tiny amount of rust that might occur in that time would easily be taken care of during this stage. I you feel better about using an epoxy primer, go ahead. I don't think you can go wrong either way. |
Over the years I have come to realize a great many parts were painted finish over bare metal: wheels, chassis parts, bumpers, complete paint on motorcycles.
My feeling is just use a rattle can finish paint that is close. The good thing is some of that will come back off with some aromatic solvents, paper towels and a good scrubbing.
A closer color match is not a bad thing either.
Al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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| Back to top |
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WithTheFlow
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2016
Posts: 197
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: My First Bus / 1970 / Non Walk Through / Bench Seats |
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| 69doublecab wrote: |
My feeling is just use a rattle can finish paint that is close.
Al |
So use a rattle can top coat on top of my welds until I am ready to sand the whole thing down and prime the whole thing with new metal at once?
_________________
The fastest thing you can do is slow down.
“The secret is here in the present. If you pay attention to the present, you can improve upon it. And, if you improve on the present, what comes later will also be better."
-- The Alchemist” |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51131
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: My First Bus / 1970 / Non Walk Through / Bench Seats |
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I wouldn't, not only is there a chance for surface rust or bubbled filler, you've got to remove the rattlecan crap before anything serious can be trusted to stick later, start out with the good stuff and save extra work in the future. (YMMV)
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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WithTheFlow
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2016
Posts: 197
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:26 am Post subject: Re: My First Bus / 1970 / Non Walk Through / Bench Seats |
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Made my order today from SPI
One gallon of gray epoxy primer - $91.34
One gallon of epocy activator - $91.34
One gallon water based w & g remover - $29.33
AL they said not to use the phosphoric acid. Just the W&G remover and let it dry for 45 min. They were very informative and answered all my questions.
They have a local supplier that can ship it by tomorrow!
I will roll it on for now to protect the metal. I paid a lot for these panels!!
_________________
The fastest thing you can do is slow down.
“The secret is here in the present. If you pay attention to the present, you can improve upon it. And, if you improve on the present, what comes later will also be better."
-- The Alchemist” |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:11 am Post subject: Re: My First Bus / 1970 / Non Walk Through / Bench Seats |
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| WithTheFlow wrote: |
Made my order today from SPI
One gallon of gray epoxy primer - $91.34
One gallon of epocy activator - $91.34
One gallon water based w & g remover - $29.33
AL they said not to use the phosphoric acid. Just the W&G remover and let it dry for 45 min. They were very informative and answered all my questions.
They have a local supplier that can ship it by tomorrow!
I will roll it on for now to protect the metal. I paid a lot for these panels!! |
Well, that is interesting. Lots of science involved there. If you are truly getting your info from the MANUFACTURER, it is probably good info. There may be acid in the paint or the wash. I never heard of water based wax and grease remover. But technology moves on. It is driven by the government's press to reduce VOC's, so anytime they can make a product that uses water instead of VOLATILE ORGANIC COMPOUND, it reduces their overall contribution.
The other thing happening is that there is a lot of turmoil in the industry as some companies gobble up others. And, the aftermarket paint buyers suffer. It used to be possible to buy paint for $100/ a gallon 15 years ago. It is a lot more now, with high end companies like Sikkens and Glasso approaching $1000 a gallon for some mixes.
Interesting. Let us know when you learn more about your purchase.
Al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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WithTheFlow
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2016
Posts: 197
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: My First Bus / 1970 / Non Walk Through / Bench Seats |
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The previous owner put bedliner along the whole inside floor of the bus. I'm not sure what this means for me as I start welding my new panels in.
All the heavy rust is on the bottom of my bus.
The past few days I have been removing the rockers on the driver side. The inner rocker was a real pain. I ended up cutting it and grinding it down to the floor panels. There are some holes in the floor on the outer edge. Should I just put new floors in that section and then weld the inner rocker to that. I am going for quality and durability.
_________________
The fastest thing you can do is slow down.
“The secret is here in the present. If you pay attention to the present, you can improve upon it. And, if you improve on the present, what comes later will also be better."
-- The Alchemist” |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: My First Bus / 1970 / Non Walk Through / Bench Seats |
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That's really good question. What order do you put it back together? You cannot do it in the original sequence. Originally they built whole sides then stood them up and welded them in.Then the floor, I think.
I'm eager to hear of others' workarounds, myself.
Al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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| Back to top |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51131
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: My First Bus / 1970 / Non Walk Through / Bench Seats |
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Clean up the outer 6" of the floor on both sides and see how religious it is, it may just need some strategic patching. Gerson sold outer floors at one time but I'm not sure he does anymore, the bay outer has some unique stampings and profiles that make using splitty or universal repair sections almost impossible.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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orwell84
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007
Posts: 2536
Location: Plattsburgh, New York
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: My First Bus / 1970 / Non Walk Through / Bench Seats |
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| There are 2 really good T2 restoration books which are very good fo answering those questions. One is a Haynes book. Lots of photos and great explanations explaining panel repairs, how everything goes together, what sequence to install panels in and workarounds for assembling panels that can't be done the same way the factory did; also what panels you can actually get, which are quality, which are crap. Was a huge help for me. |
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