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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12452
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Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 3:32 pm Post subject: Worthwhile mod on engine case rear main seal leak |
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All the fuel injected cases had this and it can be done to the earlier ones to prevent and minimize rear main seal leaks. Using a small die grinder you make an oil drain back so oil does not pool and leak when the car is parked engine off. Takes less than ten minutes.
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67rustavenger Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015 Posts: 9663 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: Worthwhile mod on engine case rear main seal leak |
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Is this for the "Mystery" engine?
I'll try to remember this trick when I build my next engine.
I feel dirty just from looking at the pics I know it's not your shop. But geeze. At least make a clean space somewhere on the bench top
Have fun farting around the garage. _________________ I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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jwp67 Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2012 Posts: 652
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 4:56 am Post subject: Re: Worthwhile mod on engine case rear main seal leak |
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That is pretty interesting. Is it done to both sides or is one side enough? _________________ 21 million of these cars were built,and everyone of them were sold...kinda astounding given how unreliable they are.---johhnypan |
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vwkirb Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2007 Posts: 812 Location: Athens, GA
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Worthwhile mod on engine case rear main seal leak |
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Just one side I believe and its not a lot of material taken out. |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26297 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:32 am Post subject: Re: Worthwhile mod on engine case rear main seal leak |
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And as long as you don't fill it up with case-half sealant! _________________ Andy T.
IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox. |
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johnnypan Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007 Posts: 7431 Location: sackamenna
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:19 am Post subject: Re: Worthwhile mod on engine case rear main seal leak |
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you can drill a second seal drain passage as well.. |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:51 am Post subject: Re: Worthwhile mod on engine case rear main seal leak |
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I think if I had a case with out that I would probably find the level of the seal& drill at that level so oil always stays on the thrust serfaces.....but there is no issue with doing it your way. allthough..... my shop has a grinding /porting/blasting room with 7 filter filteration sucker system..( not including the blast cabnet filtration system).and it still has a mess in there most of the time......ok all the time.... but the small particulate that you breathe....gets filtered out oh so well. |
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Frodge Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2006 Posts: 1991 Location: Dump
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Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Worthwhile mod on engine case rear main seal leak |
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On the earlier cases without this mod done at the factory, is it then acceptable to get some drip after shutdown? |
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Multi69s Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 5360 Location: Lefty, CA
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Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: Worthwhile mod on engine case rear main seal leak |
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Yep, it is the nature of the beast, as long as its just a couple of dots. It is nearly impossible to have a seal on the flywheel (where it actually seals) that will allow it to spin at 5,000 RPM, yet keep every drop of engine oil in. Its a fine balancing act, if the seal is so tight that it keeps all of the oil in, you risk burning up the seal. So the engineers balance what oil volume and pressure the oil will be at the seal, with the design and tension of the seal. For us the most important thing to look for is any grooving, or nicks on the flywheel's sealing surface, and to purchase a good quality seal. The only brand that I run is an Elring. _________________ 69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight= |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31266 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: Worthwhile mod on engine case rear main seal leak |
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Multi69s wrote: |
Yep, it is the nature of the beast, as long as its just a couple of dots. It is nearly impossible to have a seal on the flywheel (where it actually seals) that will allow it to spin at 5,000 RPM, yet keep every drop of engine oil in. Its a fine balancing act, if the seal is so tight that it keeps all of the oil in, you risk burning up the seal. So the engineers balance what oil volume and pressure the oil will be at the seal, with the design and tension of the seal. For us the most important thing to look for is any grooving, or nicks on the flywheel's sealing surface, and to purchase a good quality seal. The only brand that I run is an Elring. |
I'm agreeing with this post. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12686 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: Worthwhile mod on engine case rear main seal leak |
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I disagree completely. Any new car with a few drips on the ground wouldn't make it off the dealership lot. What's the biggest difference between their seals and ours?
The amount of crap that VW owners put up with for reasons I'll never understand. _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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wcfvw69 Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004 Posts: 13382 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: Worthwhile mod on engine case rear main seal leak |
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I'm also in the camp that our VW's should not leak oil.. period. It doesn't take much effort to achieve this either. _________________ Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31266 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Worthwhile mod on engine case rear main seal leak |
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Let's "assume" that my 1970 and my 1971 both had small leaks at the front oil seal.
Assuming that I could R&R the engines without wrecking the rear rubber seal or anything else:
On the 1970 I'd replace the pressure plate as I've got a used one installed, and the clutch pedal effort is a little much; mostly afraid of busting a clutch tube weld, and I need to replace the clutch pedal hook as well (already purchased that).
On the 1971 I'd "have to" remove all the tins from the 1835cc engine and clean and paint them.
In other words, that stuff will all wait until the engines NEED to come out, I just don't have any desire to dig into that, I'm not bored just thinking of projects to do. Plus, will be 105F here today, Phoenix heat is tough to deal with for a large project that one doesn't need to do.
Tim Donahoe wrote: |
I'm pretty picky about my bug. I keep it tuned and cleaned and waxed as well as possible. I like my bug. I keep care of it. But a little oil under the motor doesn't bother me in the least.
I've never owned a VW that didn't leak a little. I've owned at least two that leaked a lot. This last one (my current one) got some immediate attention (leaky front seal issues).
I just don't worry about a few drops of oil on the garage floor, I guess. I use new sump-plate and valve-cover gaskets, of course; but that little bit of oil that gets past the sump plate? Nah, it doesn't bug me. Tim |
Although my VWs don't get the internal care and likely the maintenance that Tim does for his, I agree with him about the oil drip issues.
I feel that's what rectangles of old removed carpet underneath engines are for. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Frodge Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2006 Posts: 1991 Location: Dump
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Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:13 am Post subject: Re: Worthwhile mod on engine case rear main seal leak |
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asiab3 wrote: |
I disagree completely. Any new car with a few drips on the ground wouldn't make it off the dealership lot. What's the biggest difference between their seals and ours?
The amount of crap that VW owners put up with for reasons I'll never understand. |
I agree with the fact that I would be well annoyed if a new car had any drips of oil on the ground. The problem or thing that I'm trying to understand is that there are many folks on here that have worked on VW's for 50 years. There is one camp saying they shouldn't drip at all, and there is another camp saying they all drip at some point and its impossible to stop. I've even read threads where folks have removed engines multiple times to fix a flywheel leak for it only to come back at some point, and this was with good endplay etc. Both sets of folks can't be correct.
With that being said, if vw put that groove in the case at some point to prevent or minimize any oil from hitting the ground, it would be somewhat obvious to me at least, that the early cases before FI were prone to leak here, or the cases would have never been updated. |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24670 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Worthwhile mod on engine case rear main seal leak |
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Frodge wrote: |
With that being said, if vw put that groove in the case at some point to prevent or minimize any oil from hitting the ground, it would be somewhat obvious to me at least, that the early cases before FI were prone to leak here, or the cases would have never been updated. |
Actually it is the front main seal. As in closer to the front bumper.
VW did that for the cases cast in the Brazilian factory.
Have added a second 1/8" drilled drain in the images above to that case closer to the lowest point also.
VW addressed the slight oil leakage past the front seal in the 1963-67 Transporter Workshop Manual:
_________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12452
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Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: Worthwhile mod on engine case rear main seal leak |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24670 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: Worthwhile mod on engine case rear main seal leak |
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Other problem is that after so long the steel surface of the rear of the flywheel get worn down by the rubber seal riding there causing it to leak. If you find a groove worn in the FW you have two choices:
1. Replace FW with new one or at least a used one without the worn groove.
2. You can install a Speedi Sleeve after having the FW surface machined for the sleeve.
Link
_________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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Floating VW Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015 Posts: 1596 Location: The South Zone
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Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 11:43 pm Post subject: Re: Worthwhile mod on engine case rear main seal leak |
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Frodge wrote: |
asiab3 wrote: |
I disagree completely. Any new car with a few drips on the ground wouldn't make it off the dealership lot. What's the biggest difference between their seals and ours?
The amount of crap that VW owners put up with for reasons I'll never understand. |
I agree with the fact that I would be well annoyed if a new car had any drips of oil on the ground. The problem or thing that I'm trying to understand is that there are many folks on here that have worked on VW's for 50 years. There is one camp saying they shouldn't drip at all, and there is another camp saying they all drip at some point and its impossible to stop. I've even read threads where folks have removed engines multiple times to fix a flywheel leak for it only to come back at some point, and this was with good endplay etc. Both sets of folks can't be correct.
With that being said, if vw put that groove in the case at some point to prevent or minimize any oil from hitting the ground, it would be somewhat obvious to me at least, that the early cases before FI were prone to leak here, or the cases would have never been updated. |
I have no reason to doubt that brand-new Beetles sitting on the showroom floor didn't leak any more oil than modern cars do, when they were brand-new. But just like any modern car (with the exception of maybe the electrics), in time they start leaking fluids, it's just a question of when. The problem with the ACVW engine is that it has so many places to leak from. To start with, it's a flat-4. This has many, many advantages over other engine configurations, but it also means the valve covers are down low instead of up high above the level of the oil, as they are in a V6 or V8, and there are TWO valve covers instead of just one, like on an in-line 4 or 6. So right there, you're just asking for triple the trouble. And there is the case, itself. I mean, if you cut your bathtub right in half and then glued it back together, you would EXPECT it to leak after a while, wouldn't you? And then there is the cam plug, and the oil slinger, and the main seal- all of which are basically great big holes in the case that must be in PERFECT condition to prevent leaks. And then there are the pushrod tubes . . . I think it's best not to even mention those.
So, can an ACVW engine be made to not leak a single drop of oil? Sure it can. I've done it myself. But not permanently. _________________ "It's time you started treating people as individuals, rather than mathematically predictable members of an aggregate set, regardless of how well that works." |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12452
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Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: Worthwhile mod on engine case rear main seal leak |
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Lots of good info here, thanks to all that added that. Bump. |
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Meiang Samba Member
Joined: September 27, 2016 Posts: 656 Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:54 am Post subject: Re: Worthwhile mod on engine case rear main seal leak |
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On the last two engines that I have rebuilt (Rover V8 and Alfa 105 engines) I had the lip seal areas on the crankshaft metal sprayed to fix the problem. I wonder if that can be done on the seal area integral with a VW flywheel - It may be just cheaper however to buy a new flywheel. |
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