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DadaCheese
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Joined: April 15, 2008
Posts: 835
Location: Richmond, CA
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 Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:39 am Post subject: Starting & Battery Post positions Questions for a 1971 Coupe |
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Greetings,
Been working away, as well as enjoying the 1971 Ghia we picked up last month, to the point that my Westfalia is getting jealous. Mainly just small projects (an hour and 45 minutes at the DMV with an appointment to get it registered in CA, for example, albeit not mechanical).
At the price we paid (mostly reasonable), there's naturally lots of projects to complete to make it the daily driver I'd like it to be for my wife, who will be its primary driver. Yes, sure, it looks pretty, but I've a laundry list of things to complete/check/replace and improve.
This weekend I hope to have time to track down some of the starting/charging challenges it seems to have.
Symptoms:
~ Doesn't always want to start. When it doesn't (want to start), the starter motor engages for a moment, and then a kind of dead whirrr sound happens. When this happens, you might try restarting several times (same effect) until the battery runs down, and/or jump it with a portable power-pack that we've been carrying for such occasions. Sometimes you can let it sit a bit longer and maybe it'll do better, but again, the battery may already be almost out of juice depending on how many times you try to turn it over. I'm now in the habit of keeping the battery on a trickle-charger when parked in the garage, and making sure our mobile jumper power-pack is also charged before going out.
~ The generator light does not seem to be indicating a problem when the car is running, but I am not convinced that the system is charging the battery very well. Could be the brushes (will be checking), could be the battery, could be bad/loose wiring. It is very noticeable at night, with the headlights on (dimming considerably at low rpms), that the system isn't strong. What else am I not thinking of? Do I need to refresh my memory from the Idiot's Guide?
Known Challenges:
~ The previous owner (PO) painted this car himself. Whether he left the wiring in, or removed some of it to do so is anyone's guess, but the electrical system is only hooked up just enough for the car to run. I may be trying to trace partial shorts (is a partial short even possible?), if I can't figure this out easily...
~ The previous, previous owner (PPO) is the one who placed a dual-port, dual-carb 1903 cc engine in, complete with electronic fuel pump and such. I've always been a stock kind of VW person, but I have to admit, it is zippy. Not sure if the extra draw of power for the fuel pump may also be a consideration here.
Best Guesses and My Plan of Attack:
I'm open for suggestions here, so please poke holes in my plan. I just need/want this to start when my wife uses it, it's a nice basic thing to have a working VW.
1. Check the brushes.
2. Check out the basic wiring for ignition/starting.
3. Suspect (and inspect) the battery(?). Possibly replace?
4. Suspect (and inspect) the starter.
5. ...?
And now: Battery talk.
Supposedly it has a "new" battery. It doesn't look new to me.
In the diagram below, the posts are like "Q"; meaning that the posts are on the side of the battery with positive being in the front-right. They are difficult to get at.
I haven't even had time to see if they are that way because; A) it is what the PO had, and slapped it in there to sell the Ghia, or, B) it might make the most sense due to the configuration of the electronic fuel pump and such (sorry I don't have a proper picture to show this at the moment).
Looking at the picture from the VW Owner's Manual (also below), is THAT the best, or normal placement for a 1971? Looks like that would be "D" on the diagram.
Thoughts? Besides folks that have moved their battery, how do you have yours (for a 1971 12-volt)?
Thanks in advance, anyone/everyone for thoughts on any or all of this post.
I'm always hoping to approach these things logically, and in the most efficient manner I can.
P.S. Yes, my wife will be utilizing the forum eventually, but while I'm getting things running, she's still trying to get the Ghia's feel for a proper name.
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Dada as in dadaism.
Cheese as in the stuff I love to eat.
Last edited by DadaCheese on Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Spezialist
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Joined: July 01, 2005
Posts: 1941
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:42 am Post subject: Re: Starting & Battery Post positions Questions for a 1971 Coupe |
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with a unibody design the "ground" is relying on the "connections" of the sheet metal construction, fine when new, after years the resistance builds up. the easy fix is to ad a relay for the starter.
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scotty timmerman
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Joined: January 10, 2010
Posts: 1000
Location: gigharbor W.A
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KGCoupe
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Joined: July 01, 2005
Posts: 3580
Location: Putting the "ill" and "annoy" in Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:04 am Post subject: Re: Starting & Battery Post positions Questions for a 1971 Coupe |
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| DadaCheese wrote: |
...
P.S. Yes, my wife will be utilizing the forum eventually, but while I'm getting things running, she's still trying to get the Ghia's feel for a proper name. |
Has she considered the obvious name of Willow (obvious because the shade of green offered for the 1971 model year Karmann Ghias was called Willow Green)? |
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NOVA Airhead
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Joined: July 20, 2005
Posts: 5221
Location: Richmond, VA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:40 am Post subject: Re: Starting & Battery Post positions Questions for a 1971 Coupe |
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On my 71 the battery is positioned as in Scotty's photo. It sounds like the PO put the wrong battery in.
A hard start relay will make starting easier. They are cheap enough and easy to install. This may or may not correct your problem. I would get the battery situation sorted first. Make sure you get a battery with the correct Cold Cranking Amps.
Its normal to see the lights dim at low RPMs with a generator.
Not sure I understand you question on the electrical system. There must be other circuits hooked up if you see the lights dim.
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DadaCheese
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Joined: April 15, 2008
Posts: 835
Location: Richmond, CA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:26 am Post subject: Re: Starting & Battery Post positions Questions for a 1971 Coupe |
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Thanks, everyone, for the great replies and assistance.
...I've ordered a hard start relay. I hope to get it in this week after it arrives.
I would have done more with the starting problems this weekend, but ended up spending an inordinate amount of time working on the fact that the turn-signals didn't work.
That, and we friends staying over this weekend with their kids (our friend's 13 year old son was super pleased that he was got his own bedroom during their visit; he slept in "The Toaster", our '67 Westfalia).
As a temp fix (several weeks ago) I had created a toggle switch, by-passing the emergency switch assembly, but the toggle wasn't connected to the turn-signal indicator (which had no bulb, or bulb-holder), so that was easy to leave on...
Working out the mess of wires left in disarray by the previous owner (PO) had me scratching my head a lot, but ultimately I got the turn-signals working.
It was/did keep blowing a fuse once I managed to identify all the correct wires and get them into their correct locations, so I had been thinking; "great, how am I go to find the short?!?"
I manged to figure out that the PO had used some different screws to keep the turn signal in; note the original flat-head screw on the right, and the newer phillips head ones on the left.
The length and thread are correct with the newer ones, but the head of these phillips head screws were grounding against the rim of the steering column housing. I used two layers of electrical tape as a barrier. That solved that problem...
The hazards lights don't work (they come on solid, no flashing, although I feel I have everything set up correctly), but that's something I'll tackle later; I'm just overjoyed to have the turn signals working again.
Battery. Didn't even get to clean the posts this weekend (but will).
Here are some not-so-great photos of the battery.
Remember; the posts are on the left-side of the battery with positive post facing the left-front of the car, negative in the left-back.
I did take a very quick look at the generator brushes, they look fine.
"Willow". I like it... what has Kathy come up with so far? "Swee'Pea", "Olive (Oil)" ...do you sense a Popeye theme here? What else? "Praying Mantis" was suggested, but to me that makes it sound like my head may be eaten.
Any Ghia folks going to be at the Kelly Park meet in San Jose (California) on Sunday, April 17, 2016?
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Cheese as in the stuff I love to eat. |
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c21darrel
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Joined: January 22, 2009
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Location: San Dimas
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John Moxon 
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chrismredsox1
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Joined: July 22, 2004
Posts: 128
Location: SF Bay Area
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Starting & Battery Post positions Questions for a 1971 Coupe |
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| Hi DaDaCheese - In reply to your question about Kelley Park, I will be there with my '65 ghia (you can see a few pix of it in my Samba gallery). Looking forward to meeting you and other ghia owners. It should be fun! Chris |
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DadaCheese
Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2008
Posts: 835
Location: Richmond, CA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:30 am Post subject: Re: Starting & Battery Post positions Questions for a 1971 Coupe |
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| chrismredsox1 wrote: |
| In reply to your question about Kelley Park, I will be there with my '65 ghia |
Chris, your '65 looks fantastic. Be great to have the chance to meet you and other Bay Area Ghia owners. Perhaps I can ask a lot of our newbie (newbie to Ghias) questions and hear about your '65.
We'll be around, either with our '71, or over with our '67 Westfalia ("The Toaster").
----------------------------------
The Hard Start Relay has not yet arrived, and this weekend I regretfully have no time to work on the Ghia.
However, I also plan to be getting:
~ Correct (style) battery leads ( + & - )
~ A new battery.
| NOVA Airhead wrote: |
| I would get the battery situation sorted first. Make sure you get a battery with the correct Cold Cranking Amps. |
What is/are the best battery specifications?
Typically I get my batteries from Les Schwab (a tire-store chain in northern California) because their warranties are pretty good, and the service tends to actually be knowledgeable too.
Lastly, another newbie question:
Are the door handles for a 1971 bug the same as door handles on a 1971 Ghia?
Thanks in advance, everyone for your help and comments.
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c21darrel
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DadaCheese
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Joined: April 15, 2008
Posts: 835
Location: Richmond, CA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: Starting & Battery Post positions Questions for a 1971 Coupe |
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Received the Hard-Start Relay in the mail... as well as the correct type of battery leads.
Crawled under the Ghia to figure out where the Previous Owner (PO) had the negative attached...
...it goes ALL the way from the battery to the non-engine bolt of the starter.
In fact, the positive and negative leads disappear through a hole I can't see behind the left-side carburetor (dual carbs), and then run behind the firewall along with the positive lead over to the starter.
I had thought I'd run out and see if I could get a battery closer-by at Sears real quick, but they had nothing (of note, or interest, or worthwhile) in stock.
The battery in there now has a cranking Amp rating of 875, and Cold Cranking Amps of 700... I don't know whether I need that much for a VW engine, I know that if it was a stock 1600 (which it isn't; it is a 1903), it wouldn't need all that.
Thoughts before I DO buy a battery? Should I go for the same rating as the one the PO threw in there?
I will be installing the Hard Start Relay, but it'll wait until I have a new battery too. Can't test what you can't hook up, and those carriage bolts won't necessarily work work with normal battery terminal connectors.
I did find the following on the forum so I know where the ground strap will go (much different from a bus):
Oh, and so I don't lose 'em, here are the instructions for the Hard Start Relay (below).
I've also been referencing this helpful sheet from Old Volks Home:
http://www.oldvolkshome.com/hardstart.pdf
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NOVA Airhead
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Joined: July 20, 2005
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Location: Richmond, VA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:17 am Post subject: Re: Starting & Battery Post positions Questions for a 1971 Coupe |
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IIRC the CCA for a stock engine is somewhere between 350 and 400 CCA. That should be plenty for your engine.
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c21darrel
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DadaCheese
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Joined: April 15, 2008
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Location: Richmond, CA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Starting & Battery Post positions Questions for a 1971 Coupe |
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| c21darrel wrote: |
...but I would buy more power.  Part because you have a bigger motor and part because I think a more powerful battery will last longer, perform better... |
An update...
Brought the battery that was from the Previous Owner (PO) in with me to get a new battery... they tested it... what should have been a rating of 875 was giving off only 60 amps.
Yep. Bad/old battery.
Naturally the Ghia was said to have a "new" battery with it from the PO.
It's a used car, and buyer beware, etc. I'm neither surprised or upset.
I bought this Ghia, challenges and all, at a price that I was willing to pay.
I did buy a new battery, and yes, a powerful one at that.
Not that it needs the extra power, but a bit more because this battery, with the posts in proper positions still has the same foot-print as the old one.
Having learned how bad-off the old battery was, I decided not to install the hard-start relay unless/until it seems like the Ghia needs it.
Thus far; no problems starting at all, but that was only about 20+ test-starts, mainly in the driveway.
Will drive around this weekend to see how it goes/makes sure it is charging properly.
Replaced the positive and negative battery terminal leads. The ground strap I had bought is too short (to reach where a stock fuel-pump goes), but I have it well grounded.
Next two short-term projects:
~ Will be getting locks & ignition all keyed to one master.
~ Brakes: time to do a complete examination/replacement/adjustment as needed.
Thanks everyone for the help/advice and assistance.
Longer-term goals (much, much longer, dependant on money & time):
~ Do a complete re-wire.
~ Have the seats reupholstered.
~ Dumb the engine back down (possibly a 1776 with a single carb?), an engine with heater boxes. AND so that we can have springs on the engine compartment hood again.
~ Look into why driver's side door adjustment (sag?) is off.
~ Install a better radio then the $20 temp. cheapo one I bought that doesn't fit.
~ Body work: possible pan-on floor repairs(?).
~ Fix up the dash/dash padding and make it look pretty again.
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DadaCheese
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Joined: April 15, 2008
Posts: 835
Location: Richmond, CA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:34 pm Post subject: Switching out door handles. |
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New battery and battery leads seem to have fixed a LOT.
Drove to Sacramento and back last weekend, went to our favorite German Sausage Butcher shop and visited some VW friends (water cooled folks).
Averaged 24.6 mpg, but there was a lot of stop and go on the 80 freeway.
Saw a really nice 1965 Bug on the way back... we all waved, but once traffic cleared, we were back up to 70 mph... The 1903cc engine is growing on me.
Spent part of today fixing up the door handles, having bought some single-keyed handles from a 1971 Bug.
Ended up switching the barrels out, because as you can see below, there are some differences.
Our neighbor's kids dropped by to help, as they often do, and took over photo duties too.
Up next; replacing the ignition barrel which is keyed the same as the doors...
Any picture tutorials on TheSamba for getting to the ignition barrel?
Did a quick search, but didn't find much. Perhaps in the Bug section?
The Kelly Park (San Jose, CA) Meet is next weekend (Sunday, April 17th, 2016) and I'd love to have the Ghia ready.
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