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Early T-3 transmission in a T-1 Ė Advantages/Disadvantages?
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bobnorman
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 7:43 am    Post subject: Early T-3 transmission in a T-1 Ė Advantages/Disadvantages? Reply with quote

So I realized last night that the transmission in my 66 Type 14 Ghia is actually from an early Type Three. A June Ď63 model to be exact, possibly from a T-34. I had always wondered why it had long axles; I tried to look up the number but couldnít find it in the Beetle or Ghia section. Some time ago I noticed the pinwheel drums, but never really thought too much about it, until I pulled the drum last night: ďAh-ha! Perhaps this is a T-3 trannyĒÖ checked the number and bingo! Yes, Iím a bit slow to connect things sometimes - my wife calls me the dumbest smart person she knows. Confused Anyway, now that the mystery is solved, my question is what to do about it?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Iíll likely ask this in the Ghia forum as well, but thought someone here might be able to school me on the advantages/disadvantages of the T-3 Swing axle transmission over the one my car was born with. Should I keep it? Iím pretty sure I have another swing from a 67 or 68 beetle.

Straight away I know that brake parts will be an issue. I recall from looking for parts for my 64 Square that some things are hard to findÖpre Ď64 stuff even moreso. Drums look in good shape, and I can see that they are much wider, so in my mind that would be a plus - if I can find the shoes/cylinders. If parts are too hard to find, anyone know if it would it be possible to swap the whole brake setup from a later wide 5 Beetle/Ghia?

I terms of performance, I gather that the gearing is such that the T-3 will be a little slower off the line but better top end. Is this correct? Also, Iím thinking that the wider track of the Type Three would improve stability over the short axle/short tube unit. Pretty sure this is why they switched the T-1s to long/long in later years.

As mentioned this may have come from a T-34, is there a difference between the transmission in a Ď63 notch/square and a T-34?

Any thoughts/advice on this would be welcome.
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t3kg
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think locating parts would be the only downside, especially the brake cylinders and drums. They're out there but you really have to look, and they're usually not cheap. There may be a crossover/substitution from another model for the cylinders. ISP West has relined shoes on exchange or you can have yours relined.

The gearing is a little taller so it should give you longer legs in 4th. Will the longer axles work with the Ghia bodywork? Assuming you're planning to use stock wheel/tire size.

There's no difference in the trans between Type 3 models. The brake cylinders were bigger on the squares.
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply. Planning on stock rims with 185 65s. The car had no clearance issues with the 6.00 15s on it before, hoping there wonít be a problem with the radials. As for the engine, Iím going to be running a DP 1600, with dual Kadrons. So, Iíll have a longer 4th gear, but will I also have reduced acceleration off the start?

Also, as for brakes, Iím wondering if I could use the 64 and later T-3 wide five stuff on the existing backing plate, as it seems to be (marginally) easier to come by than the earlier stuff.
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bobnorman wrote:
Thanks for the reply. Planning on stock rims with 185 65s. The car had no clearance issues with the 6.00 15s on it before, hoping there wonít be a problem with the radials. As for the engine, Iím going to be running a DP 1600, with dual Kadrons. So, Iíll have a longer 4th gear, but will I also have reduced acceleration off the start?

Also, as for brakes, Iím wondering if I could use the 64 and later T-3 wide five stuff on the existing backing plate, as it seems to be (marginally) easier to come by than the earlier stuff.




Yes on the brakes. SuperBeetle front 22.2mm wheel cylinders work nicely, and 64-65 shoes seem to be easier to get. New drums are available as well, the bus guys use them
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bobnorman
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, been doing a bit more reading on my brakes. I plan on converting the 63 brake set up thatís on it now to 64-65.
I was looking at the T-3 drums from CIP 1 they are listed as fitting 62 - 65, but someone on here indicated that when they went to install them on their earlier car the backing plates slipped inside of them. Someone else said that they were mislabeled and that they would only fit 64 and 65, ie would not replace the early pin wheels (to 63).

So questions:
1. Is there a size difference between the 61-63 backing plates and the 64-65 (and up) plates?

2. If not can I just bolt the 64-up drum and shoes on to the 63 plates, or do I need to swap out the 63 plates for 64 & up plates?
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ataraxia
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The one caution I'd put out there is that the repop drums for 64/65 brakes don't always fit the splines properly - you may have to do some light grinding to get them to fit.

The rear wheel cylinders and shoes for 64/65 drums are very easy to find.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ataraxia wrote:
The one caution I'd put out there is that the repop drums for 64/65 brakes don't always fit the splines properly - you may have to do some light grinding to get them to fit.

The rear wheel cylinders and shoes for 64/65 drums are very easy to find.


Thanks, I'd heard that there maybe some fitment issues. As for the availability of shoes and cylinders that is the primary reason I'm converting from 63-down.

Still am not certain though if I need to change out the backing plates as well.
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ataraxia
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what it's worth: I can get NOS early pinwheel drums. I can't get NOS 64/65 drums - although there is/was a pair in the classifieds for $275.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the only thing I could really see being an issue is bolting the 64-65 wheel cylinders to the 63 backing plates. I don't know that it will work. they are the same diameter inside, so you can buy them to pull apart and use in the earlier wheel cylinders. Thats what I'm doing

I will know if they are straight bolt on sooner or later - probably later as it's 100+ heat index in Houston + mosquitoes and I have zero motivation to do anything to my notchback at all

I wouldn't count on it working. I do know that you can use later 4 lug backing plates with 64-65 shoes, wheel cylinders, and drums, and the advantage there is you can adjust the brakes from the backing plate side instead of the drum side
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are at least four versions of the backing plate:

361 609 439 Back plate - Rear brake, left
to Ch. No. 76 299

311 609 439 A Back plate - Rear brake, left
from Ch. No. 76 300 to 221 974

311 609 439 B Back plate - Rear brake, left
from Ch. No. 221 975 to 483 592

311 609 439 D Back plate - Rear brake, left
from Ch. No. 315 000 001
(parts book shows this one as having the rear access holes for adjusting the shoe, which started on the 1966 model year so something doesn't jive)
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ataraxia wrote:
For what it's worth: I can get NOS early pinwheel drums. I can't get NOS 64/65 drums - although there is/was a pair in the classifieds for $275.


You can get new 64-65 rear drums. I recently bought two. The brand was Sebro (German).

http://www.sebro.eu/products/automotive-classics.html
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NorSquare wrote:
ataraxia wrote:
For what it's worth: I can get NOS early pinwheel drums. I can't get NOS 64/65 drums - although there is/was a pair in the classifieds for $275.


You can get new 64-65 rear drums. I recently bought two. The brand was Sebro (German).

http://www.sebro.eu/products/automotive-classics.html


How much did they cost you - before shipping?

Anything can technically be had for a price. Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ataraxia wrote:
NorSquare wrote:
ataraxia wrote:
For what it's worth: I can get NOS early pinwheel drums. I can't get NOS 64/65 drums - although there is/was a pair in the classifieds for $275.


You can get new 64-65 rear drums. I recently bought two. The brand was Sebro (German).

http://www.sebro.eu/products/automotive-classics.html


How much did they cost you - before shipping?

Anything can technically be had for a price. Laughing


Bought from an local guy here who had 2 (last one's) on the shelf. I paid approximately 200
USD. An very nice price I think.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys. With regards to the availability of the drums, Iím going with the later ones for a couple of reasons. I figure itís more likely that Iíll be replacing the shoes or cylinders than the drums down the road, so Iíd rather the ease of sourcing those parts, even if I have a bit of trouble getting the later drums now. As well the pattern on the 64/65 versus the pinwheels matches the front drums of the 66 Ghia (not that that matters too much). Plus the shoes as I understand it are wider on the 64/65s, so better braking.

Interesting about the Sebro drums, I wonder if I can find a place that carries them? Else, Iíll buy the Danish ones and see how they work.

As for the backing plate, I knew there were two types from 64-74, (the only difference being the adjuster holes added for 66-74), but didnít realize there were two versions of early ones. Still have not ascertained why a plate from a 63 would slip inside a later W-5 drum thoughÖ

I think Iíll just buy the 64/65 drums and see what happens. If they donít fit due to the plate, Iíll look at sourcing some later plates then.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-TYPE-3-1964-1965-REAR-B...5d565c75d5

Isp West got drums...
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:53 am    Post subject: Re: Early T-3 transmission in a T-1 Ė Advantages/Disadvantages? Reply with quote

Well I bought the drums, and saw what happened: The backing plates slipped right inside them. So, in case anyone has the same question. The plates up to end July '63 are a smaller diameter than August 1 '63 and up, and correspondingly the (pinwheel) drums for the 1963 model year (to July 31st '63), are the same diameter as the Type 1 drums, but are much deeper (45mm).

I'm sure most of you already know all this stuff, but for those who don't, I thought I'd include my findings here...maybe save someone some unnecessary purchases and/or parts clean up.

So, doing some rough measurements, and looking at information in the parts book, this is what Iíve learned:

The drums from start to mid-August 1962 (61-62 model year) have an inside diameter of 232mm, and accommodate 40mm wide shoes.

The drums from mid-August 1962 Ė July 31 1963 (1963 model year) have an inside diameter of 232mm, and accommodate 45mm wide shoes.

The drums from August 1 63-July 31 65 (64 & 65 model year) have an inside diameter of 248mm, and accommodate 45mm wide shoes.

Hereís my old 63 and new 64-65 drums side by side. Same width, different diameter.

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The backing plates for 1963 model year (mid-Aug 1962 to July 31, 1963) have an outside diameter of 248mm.

The backing plates for 1964 model year (shown as Aug 1, 1963 - July 31, 1964) have an outside diameter of 265mm. A different plate is indicated for 1965 up, not sure why as the drums are the same so I would assume the plates would be as well.

I can't speak to the pre-63 stuff, but there is a different plate listed for 61-62 model year -from start of production to mid-Aug 1962.

The diameter of the wheel cylinder hole in both the 1963 plates and the later (64-up) plates is 28mm, indicating that early and late wheel cylinders would fit in either.

Rear Squareback wheel cylinders from Aug 1, 1963 to July 31, 1965 (64-65 model years) are listed as all being 23.8 mm cylinders, however there are two different part numbers for model year 64 and model year 65, so not sure what the difference was there, but the front Super Beetle cylinder (23.8 ) is listed as fitting for both. The early Square cylinders (1961 and 1962) are bigger Ė 25.4mm, again with a different part number for each year.

The rest of the Type Three cars used only 22.2 mm rear cylinders from the beginning of production at least through to August 1969 (publication date of parts book).
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Early T-3 transmission in a T-1 Ė Advantages/Disadvantages? Reply with quote

bobnorman wrote:

The backing plates for 1964 model year (shown as Aug 1, 1963 - July 31, 1964) have an outside diameter of 265mm. A different plate is indicated for 1965 up, not sure why as the drums are the same so I would assume the plates would be as well.


ataraxia wrote:
There are at least four versions of the backing plate:

361 609 439 Back plate - Rear brake, left
to Ch. No. 76 299

311 609 439 A Back plate - Rear brake, left
from Ch. No. 76 300 to 221 974

311 609 439 B Back plate - Rear brake, left
from Ch. No. 221 975 to 483 592

311 609 439 D Back plate - Rear brake, left
from Ch. No. 315 000 001
(parts book shows this one as having the rear access holes for adjusting the shoe, which started on the 1966 model year so something doesn't jive)
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bobnorman
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:11 am    Post subject: Re: Early T-3 transmission in a T-1 Ė Advantages/Disadvantages? Reply with quote

ataraxia wrote:
bobnorman wrote:

The backing plates for 1964 model year (shown as Aug 1, 1963 - July 31, 1964) have an outside diameter of 265mm. A different plate is indicated for 1965 up, not sure why as the drums are the same so I would assume the plates would be as well.


ataraxia wrote:
There are at least four versions of the backing plate:

361 609 439 Back plate - Rear brake, left
to Ch. No. 76 299

311 609 439 A Back plate - Rear brake, left
from Ch. No. 76 300 to 221 974

311 609 439 B Back plate - Rear brake, left
from Ch. No. 221 975 to 483 592

311 609 439 D Back plate - Rear brake, left
from Ch. No. 315 000 001
(parts book shows this one as having the rear access holes for adjusting the shoe, which started on the 1966 model year so something doesn't jive)


Right you are... Missed that. Still, strange though that 65 would be indicated as having adjustment holes.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:48 am    Post subject: Re: Early T-3 transmission in a T-1 Ė Advantages/Disadvantages? Reply with quote

I'm wondering if the missing "C" revision part is the link or if it simply didn't exist and the production range is incorrect in the parts book.

I've owned several 65's and never seen the adjustment holes on the back - including the photos of the backing plates I sent to you last night. Those are off of a 65 that was matching numbers original.
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