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Another man's ventilation fan - for the skylight
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chase4food
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 8:35 pm    Post subject: Another man's ventilation fan - for the skylight Reply with quote

This project derived from my recent find of the nifty little programmable thermostat that I found on Amazon costing under $4 shipped.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=651469


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I have been wanting to build a ventilation fan for my van over a decade, and only now that I got around to it. I went to Fry's and selected a large diameter computer fan.

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Larger fan means lower RPM, and hence quieter and more efficient operation.

In order not to waste what I have left of a remnant of 1/4" thick artist's foam board, I first made a temporary support for the fan using a piece of scrap.

i just wedged the scrap foam board into the skylight
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a notch is cut to clear the skylight mechanism
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next I trace the fan outline and proceed to cut out the circular opening
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easy as cutting pie; the fan will sit on top of the foam sheet which is perfect
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I used the 4 mounting screws that came with the fan to secure it onto the foam board
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I let it run a good part of a day and there is no sign of distress on the fan
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this is a pair of wire that I provisioned back in circa 2003 for a ventilation fan; only now that I finally got around to this project
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satisfied with the in-situ bench test I proceed to build the final version
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it is that simple
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90% done
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I wedged the assembly into the skylight and it sits rather securely; I have not decide the support on the front edge, though I likely will take advantage of the two fasteners for the skylight hinges
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finished look from top; I incline to leave the fan assembly as a fixed installation as it will block out a lot of harmful UV into the cabin
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When I first tested the fan on the bench it seemed to move very little air. Once it is mounted on this baffle (foam board) the difference is huge as the air is not recycle back causing turbulence. It is whisper quiet and consumes about 222mA. I chose to use foam board for the support for its light weight and it's easily conform to the plastic crank housing of the skylight.

I am still waiting for the electronic thermostat to arrive via slow boat from China, so this is about as far as I can take the project right now. I plan to add a screen on the suction side of the fan for safety so no one would have their hair tangled up and I got sued. Sad

One main use case for this fan is to reduce the thermal gain when parked in the summer sun. High cabin temperature is very bad for the van interior, especially the Westfalia cabinet moldings. That is the main reason I want to add the thermostat so I don't have to open the sliding door to turn it on/off. I like fire and forget features.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:10 am    Post subject: Re: Another man's ventilation fan - for the skylight Reply with quote

Your fan and the mounting idea looks great.

I would reconsider foam core board for the mounting though. Unless ir is different from paper coated foam?

I'd be more inclined to use a sheet plastic or even the plastic corrugated sign board which is available for free on virtually every street corner in America this time of year!

Dave
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: Another man's ventilation fan - for the skylight Reply with quote

Nice mod! Looking forward to the final product! I agree completely agree with the need for this. I considered a Fantastic Fan but am not interested in hacking my poptop
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:00 am    Post subject: Re: Another man's ventilation fan - for the skylight Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
Your fan and the mounting idea looks great.

I would reconsider foam core board for the mounting though. Unless ir is different from paper coated foam?

I'd be more inclined to use a sheet plastic or even the plastic corrugated sign board which is available for free on virtually every street corner in America this time of year!

Dave


Thanks Dave. Not sure which foam core board you meant. I used artist's paper sandwiched foam board. It is a remnant that I have at home so expedient and light, and no shopping. Very Happy the 1/4" thickness and its flexibility is needed to bend and slide into the slot of the plastic crank mechanism cover that is not designed for this hack. I don't expect it to last a very long time. I am sure the sun will yellow the top side in short order so I consider it as a maintenance item. It is very possible too that the real test of the design is hot summer sun. The asymmetrical heating of the board will like cause the board to curve. I am also a bit concern about the fan plastic deforming from solar heat. So far it is a cheap $13 experiment.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:16 am    Post subject: Re: Another man's ventilation fan - for the skylight Reply with quote

I think your idea is great, the artist paper? Not so much.

Consider this product, maybe contact Gerald about how to incorporate your fan idea into it?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1650932

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:27 am    Post subject: Re: Another man's ventilation fan - for the skylight Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
I think your idea is great, the artist paper? Not so much.

Consider this product, maybe contact Gerald about how to incorporate your fan idea into it?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1650932

Dave


I am aware of that product. It is quite nice but would not be my choice.

While i didn't specially mention it. I want to limit the outlay expense until the fan is proven to withstand operating in this orientation and in harsh environment. It is a repurposed computer fan that mostly mounted to pull air horizontally. Frankly, the plan B location is on the side slider windows.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:36 am    Post subject: Re: Another man's ventilation fan - for the skylight Reply with quote

This one is also constructed with artist foam board. It has served me since 2012. I would not change the foam board as it is the best feature. I stow it away in the cabin and it does not mar the Westfalia interior because the foam board is sacrificial by design. It just sits on the ledge of the wing window and should it fall, nothing get damage. Model airplane wings often made of similar fragile foam and they too have many reasons.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:11 am    Post subject: Re: Another man's ventilation fan - for the skylight Reply with quote

I have actually supplied my skylight kit as a custom solid panel the same in every way as my regular kit except for no screen cutout. The solidpanel can then be cut drilled out modified to mount your choice of fan. Several users have requested this but the hassle of running wires for the power up to the poptop make it not practical as a commercial kit for me to produce. I do have a battery powered screen/fan product in early development but it is some ways off before it might see the sales department as I have many great ideas on a regular basis but getting around to finishing them up is something that takes a lot more effort on my part as I am easily distracted by the next idea.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:06 am    Post subject: Re: Another man's ventilation fan - for the skylight Reply with quote

backyard_cnc wrote:
I have actually supplied my skylight kit as a custom solid panel the same in every way as my regular kit except for no screen cutout. The solidpanel can then be cut drilled out modified to mount your choice of fan. Several users have requested this but the hassle of running wires for the power up to the poptop make it not practical as a commercial kit for me to produce. I do have a battery powered screen/fan product in early development but it is some ways off before it might see the sales department as I have many great ideas on a regular basis but getting around to finishing them up is something that takes a lot more effort on my part as I am easily distracted by the next idea.

Gerald


I totally concur with your view on the need to run wire up the pop top might not be a worthwhile commercial pursuit. Too many unforeseeable problems with diverse skill levels of the customers. A commercially sold fan will need a robust fan guard etc.

To Dave. I do appreciate varied views of our approaches to problem solving. I like critiques from others as well. My choice of path very often seen as eccentric by others and I am happy.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:49 am    Post subject: Re: Another man's ventilation fan - for the skylight Reply with quote

I love your little project, it seems very "coo" Laughing l!

you're talking about customers: do you rent the van? (I do too Smile )

What the CitroŽn DS21 for? eccentricity? Cool
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Another man's ventilation fan - for the skylight Reply with quote

ALIKA T3 wrote:
I love your little project, it seems very "coo" Laughing l!

you're talking about customers: do you rent the van? (I do too Smile )

What the CitroŽn DS21 for? eccentricity? Cool


Thanks.

The customer reference is in respond to Gerald's post above. I have no customer. It is just my toy if you will.

That is not my Citroen DS. Just a photo to illustrate a point. It is one of my favorite car, and I would not hesitate to will the station wagon as my hearse when I leave, with Strauss' "the last four songs" playing. Laughing

photo credit: Sven Storbeck found on Wikipedia
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Last edited by chase4food on Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Another man's ventilation fan - for the skylight Reply with quote

I fashioned two simple support brackets for the foam board fan assembly lease it distort under the solar heat.

this stainless strap is perfect with the two holes already there to make two support clips
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i popped out the grey plastic trim caps to expose the bolts and nuts of the two skylight hinges; i was glad to see there is sufficient threads for adding the clips and nuts without having to disturb the existing nuts
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a bit of cutting, bending, and removing the burrs the foam assembly now is properly supported, and hence the fan; i was concerned that when the foam sag from gravity it can distort the fan housing structurally due to the solar heat
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One leisurely small step at a time I am taking to tool-prove the design.

Here is the advertised specs of the fan. I would not be too obsessed with the numbers. Do note that this kind of fan are not designed for any back pressure at all so there is some reduction of CFM just due to the deflection of the outlet air stream hitting the skylight. Even if the CFM is cut into half from 130, that is going to do a lot of good keeping the cabin temperature lower than without when parked in the sun.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Another man's ventilation fan - for the skylight Reply with quote

I've read the sleeve bearing computer fans are the ones most likely not to enjoy a horizontal mounting position.

Dual ball bearing fans are the better choice.

While not cheap, the silverstone AP182 fan (180mm) comes with a speed controller, and on lowest at speed is practically silent, consumes only 0.05 amps and moves 64CFM at low and 170CFM on high at 1.3 amps.


The speed controlling potentiometer can be installed well away from the fan itself. The Fan does not like battery charging voltages above 13 when on high speed however. The Hub gets too hot.

I used a voltage limiter and held it to 11 volts maximum for a little loss in max rpm/CFM.

I consider a speed controller necessary on fans.

This PWM LED dimmer works well for computer fans:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JQ437YM?psc=1

Some fans might whine at reduced speeds however. The Adjustable speed Silverstones do not whine. I also like the silverstone fm121 for its high CFM and adjustable speed.

Noctua makes some well built well designed fans with a 7 year warranty, but they are not super high rpm, though they have an industrial lineup that does increase rpm and are more rated against dust and moisture.

My SS AP182 has failed after nearly 18 months of continuous use. It resides as an intake fan, and a salty air moisture laden environment smoked something on the circuit board. I should have gotten some dielectric grease in there or shot some DeOxit shield in there. Regardless, i will buy another one as it is simply so effective, and quiet at lowest speed, while still moving a lot of air
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Another man's ventilation fan - for the skylight Reply with quote

nocreditnodebt wrote:
I've read the sleeve bearing computer fans are the ones most likely not to enjoy a horizontal mounting position.

Dual ball bearing fans are the better choice.

While not cheap, the silverstone AP182 fan (180mm) comes with a speed controller, and on lowest at speed is practically silent, consumes only 0.05 amps and moves 64CFM at low and 170CFM on high at 1.3 amps.


The speed controlling potentiometer can be installed well away from the fan itself. The Fan does not like battery charging voltages above 13 when on high speed however. The Hub gets too hot.

I used a voltage limiter and held it to 11 volts maximum for a little loss in max rpm/CFM.

I consider a speed controller necessary on fans.

This PWM LED dimmer works well for computer fans:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JQ437YM?psc=1

Some fans might whine at reduced speeds however. The Adjustable speed Silverstones do not whine. I also like the silverstone fm121 for its high CFM and adjustable speed.

Noctua makes some well built well designed fans with a 7 year warranty, but they are not super high rpm, though they have an industrial lineup that does increase rpm and are more rated against dust and moisture.

My SS AP182 has failed after nearly 18 months of continuous use. It resides as an intake fan, and a salty air moisture laden environment smoked something on the circuit board. I should have gotten some dielectric grease in there or shot some DeOxit shield in there. Regardless, i will buy another one as it is simply so effective, and quiet at lowest speed, while still moving a lot of air


Thanks for sharing your experience. I don't think there is fast and hard rules about if sleeve or ball bearing work better in vertical position though I can be wrong. I used to shunt Chinese brands when it comes to fans, but things change a lot in recent decade. I built my first ventilation fan with 120mm NMB (a leading Japanese brand) and I know the NMB fans were the cream of the crop in those days. This time around I thought the Chinese fans are quite good, and I just want to try them. I am counting on the typical nylon washers in a sleeve bearing fan to do the job in the vertical orientation and I am willing to give it a chance, as a $13 gamble.

I just went and powered up another NMB 120mm fan that I have. It is ball bearing and pulls a lot of air at 320mA. I actually at one time slow down this fan with two power resistors to reduce noise. No need to spend money if you just want to tame the noise a bit.

These brushless fan generally work better with low tech analog mean of speed control as opposed to PWM unless it is specifically design for it. PWM can cause the hum that you experience. The benefit of PWM, if quiet is little reduction in efficiency.

I can alway fall back on my 120mm NMB if this sleeve fan goes south.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Another man's ventilation fan - for the skylight Reply with quote

Just an update on an incremental progress.

The tiny temperature controller board that I ordered from Amazon finally arrived from China. I could not wait to immediately test out the functions. I did have to download the instruction form the web to know how to navigate the functions.

This little board has 6 programmable parameters - P0 through P6. The display is fixed in Celsius.

while I knew it is small, but seeing it first hand is still a bit of a surprise; overall quality is excellent
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i set it up in on the bench to test it out first; it consumes about 18mA when the relay is not energized; the relay adds about 50mA when energized
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i want to test it out over a few days before deciding on the final mounting location and method
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The fan has accumulated may be 40 hours of run time so far at this horizontal position. There is no sign so far it is stressed.

I went and order another one and the price has risen a whopping 9%. Shocked
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Another man's ventilation fan - for the skylight Reply with quote

chase4food wrote:
The fan has accumulated may be 40 hours of run time so far at this horizontal position. There is no sign so far it is stressed.

I went and order another one and the price has risen a whopping 9%. Shocked


I'd be surprised if you see any stress for quite some time, if you see any at all beyond regular wear.

I run two similar fans (same size and power, but mine are liquid bearing fans) that are on CONSTANTLY in my PC... and I mean 24/7/365... The two that are currently running in the same configuration as yours have been running between 40%-100% speed for about 8 years now with having been off maybe 3-4 times max and no longer than an hour total.

The artist board will go bad before the fan will cause problems...
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Another man's ventilation fan - for the skylight Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing the experience. Good to know. Foam board is cheap so it is a consumable item. Very Happy It conforms to the not so flat shape of the crank mechanism cover well and no rattle.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Another man's ventilation fan - for the skylight Reply with quote

Nice job. Temp controller is a nice touch.

I've been running a similar set up (with just simple on/off switch) for a couple of years and it's held up fine. Can't provide any empirical evidence on it's effectiveness.... other than I feel air blowing. Smile

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Another man's ventilation fan - for the skylight Reply with quote

chimivee wrote:
Nice job. Temp controller is a nice touch.

I've been running a similar set up (with just simple on/off switch) for a couple of years and it's held up fine. Can't provide any empirical evidence on it's effectiveness.... other than I feel air blowing. Smile


Cool! Nice to see others do the same. Is the fan just supported by the home made frame without a baffle? If so you will see significant increase of air flow by mounting it on a baffle like mine. When I tested the fan by itself, it moves meager amount air as the air get sucked back and recirculates thru the fan. Once mounted into the skylight, the difference is day and night.

Starts to rain now. Going to close the hatch. May be I should automate that too.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:58 am    Post subject: Re: Another man's ventilation fan - for the skylight Reply with quote

Boats use an aspirin for automatic closing of hatches during rain. The aspirin melts pretty fast and trips something to close the hatch. In some, it's a linkage and when the aspirin melts, the hatch closes by gravity as it is as if the linkage "broke" and let the hatch down.

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