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chase4food
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 Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:44 pm Post subject: How do Vanagon CV joints keep the axle shaft center? |
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This question has been bugging me a while now, and I want to ask the community if my understanding is correct. I have searched for this answer to no avail on the web.
We all know that the CV joint allows the two axle ends to bend and yet transmits the rotation though these bends with minimal power lost and wear. Additionally they also allow the center segment of this more the less stretched out Z shape of the axle to lengthen or shorten in respond to the suspension motion . We will skip the front wheel drive for now.
My question is what keep the axle between the two CV joints more the less center between the inner and outer CV joints. This means the amount of axle plunge is spread more the less equal for the two CV joints at the opposite ends.
Playing with the CVs I cannot see a mechanism in the CV design that perform this function. Additionally, in most suspension set up, the axle shaft generally inclines downwards towards the wheel. Because of this gravity imparts on the axle shaft will tends to plunge the axle towards the outer CV and pull away from the inner CV.
The only mechanism that I can see that performs this function is the two CV boots, which acts like springs (softly) restraining the lateral movement of the axle shaft.
So my $64k question is am I correct?
Assuming this is true, worn and tired CV boots will cause the normal (sweet) wear spot to shift outboard on both CV joints.
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Last edited by chase4food on Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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chase4food
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: How does CV joints keep the axle shaft center? |
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I saw this youtube video and there is this what he call the "cheap" (left most and smallest) style CV boot. I can't see how it can help restrain the axle shaft to spread the plunge more the less equally between the two CVs against the effect of gravity.
Link
I am asking this dumb question because I have been staring at the wear spots on the CVs and I cannot help but to wonder what dictates the location. Mine are not unduly offset like some failed joint photos that I see. Most of these badly worn joints have wear spot very close to one end of the bearing race.
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what Isolde wants Isolde doesn't always get, 4 I know what is best for her - Liebe macht frei |
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Christopher Schimke
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: How does CV joints keep the axle shaft center? |
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I could be way off base here, since I have never read anything about this or been told this, but I always assumed is was the opposing bearing track angles that forces the star portion to center itself when under load. If all of the tracks were parallel in the same direction, the torque on the axle would drive the center star inward or outward (depending on the direction of drive), but since the tracks run in opposing directions, the torque on the axle causes the center star to find a natural center.
As for the wear patterns that appear off center, I always assumed this was caused by high operation angles and if an axle was running perfectly perpendicular to the joint, the wear would be pretty much centered.
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"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
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chase4food
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: How does CV joints keep the axle shaft center? |
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| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
| I could be way off base here, since I have never read anything about this or been told this, but I always assumed is was the opposing bearing track angles that forces the star portion to center itself when under load. If all of the tracks were parallel in the same direction, the torque on the axle would drive the center star inward or outward (depending on the direction of drive), but since the tracks run in opposing directions, the torque on the axle causes the center star to find a natural center. |
Chris,
Thanks for chiming in. When I first spent time examining the CV closely that was what I though. Torque the joint with two hands I could not see any force the thrust the center hub one way or the other. Also many factors can influence the relative coefficients of friction and I cannot see any mechanical design can rely on the balance of frictions that is the tug of war between the two joints. Further, there are 93x CV joints that has no spiral. They are straight cut.
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what Isolde wants Isolde doesn't always get, 4 I know what is best for her - Liebe macht frei |
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Gnarlodious 
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: How does CV joints keep the axle shaft center? |
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Speak for yourself. My joints seem to be strategically angled so as to maximize friction and boot breakage.
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chase4food
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: How does CV joints keep the axle shaft center? |
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Here is this guy with a 93x CV that has straight cut bearing races. He mentioned it expressly in one episode which I can't find. If you pay attention to the CV at 2:50 you see that all the spacing between the ball races are equal. He said it is a very unusual CV and give him the most angle (like 40 degrees).
Link
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Christopher Schimke
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: How does CV joints keep the axle shaft center? |
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If I'm not mistaken, the joint in that video is like a typical fixed (non-plunging) style Rzeppa joint. The tracks are parallel to each other in one plane, but they are curved in the other. The curve in the track prevents the joint from plunging, but it also allows extreme angles (some up to 50 degrees from what I understand).
EDIT - Yes, those are definitely a non-plunging CV in that video. That style CV naturally stays centered since the inner star portion does not plunge and is therefore not applicable to the original question of what keeps the CVs like we use in our Vanagons centered. The only non-plunging CV used on a Vanagon would be for the Syncro front outer locations.
Here is the type of CV that he used in that video -
http://www.rcvperformance.com/product-details.aspx?sku=SI-15RF
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
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Last edited by Christopher Schimke on Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:38 am; edited 3 times in total |
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IdahoDoug
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: How does CV joints keep the axle shaft center? |
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Vince,
What happens during operation is that the inner star of the CV joint transfers torque to the outer joint, using the 6 balls that are trapped by the cage. This is for the outer CVs - for the inners the torque transfer is the opposite (from outer to star).
Notice that the outer joint grooves are ramped opposite to one another in pairs. When the torque is applied, one ball wants to squirt one way, the other ball the other way because the ramps are sloped opposite. So, the net effect of the 6 balls if the CV were not angled would be for the inner star and balls to remain centered in the outer joints ramps because they oppose.
It's still true when the joint is angled, but it gets complicated.
In fact, of the joint is perfectly straight (no angle), there is very little ball movement - they just go round and round with no relative movement against the inner star or outer joint. Bend them and now the balls are scuffing up both the star and the outer joint as they roll back and forth with each revolution. That extra movement is why lifts are rough on CVs - the balls are never still when there is an angle, and the more the angle, the more the balls are grinding around in there without a break.
The joints are there to allow for suspension movement and to handle angles for these periods of time. When you lift a Vanagon, for instance, even on flat ground the balls are grinding away.
Doug
PS - I don't think you can straight cut those angles. The opposing ramps is what keeps the balls trapped tightly and the joint would just fall apart if the grooves were parallel. It may be that making them closer to parallel allows for steeper angles, however.
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Merian
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: How does CV joints keep the axle shaft center? |
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I swear I once saw a nice animation of how CVS work on der internet somewhere... (it has the suspension moving up & down - not the one above)
You can transmit torque thru greater angles with a CV than with the old-timey Nadella U-joints
Last edited by Merian on Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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djkeev
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chase4food
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:30 am Post subject: Re: How does CV joints keep the axle shaft center? |
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| IdahoDoug wrote: |
Vince,
What happens during operation is that the inner star of the CV joint transfers torque to the outer joint, using the 6 balls that are trapped by the cage. This is for the outer CVs - for the inners the torque transfer is the opposite (from outer to star).
Notice that the outer joint grooves are ramped opposite to one another in pairs. When the torque is applied, one ball wants to squirt one way, the other ball the other way because the ramps are sloped opposite. So, the net effect of the 6 balls if the CV were not angled would be for the inner star and balls to remain centered in the outer joints ramps because they oppose.
It's still true when the joint is angled, but it gets complicated.
In fact, of the joint is perfectly straight (no angle), there is very little ball movement - they just go round and round with no relative movement against the inner star or outer joint. Bend them and now the balls are scuffing up both the star and the outer joint as they roll back and forth with each revolution. That extra movement is why lifts are rough on CVs - the balls are never still when there is an angle, and the more the angle, the more the balls are grinding around in there without a break.
The joints are there to allow for suspension movement and to handle angles for these periods of time. When you lift a Vanagon, for instance, even on flat ground the balls are grinding away.
Doug
PS - I don't think you can straight cut those angles. The opposing ramps is what keeps the balls trapped tightly and the joint would just fall apart if the grooves were parallel. It may be that making them closer to parallel allows for steeper angles, however. |
All. Thanks for all the inputs. After I set out to answer the central question I am raising, I realize there are many variations of CV joints. However, if memory serves the Wikipedia page, as all too common, lumps in torque transmission mechanical systems that are not CV in the very definition also. It does enumerate many different designs that are CV in our definition.
I saw the animation that Chris shown. It is one CV design with straight bearing races. If you mentally pause the animation for a moment and think, you will see this design does not allow the "effective" length of the axle to vary. There is no plunging or un-plunging with this CV design. That function has to be fulfilled by something else like a sliding spline shaft.
Sorry my writing below is lengthy and unedited. Just type as I think out loud.
Let's just stick with the standard issued Vanagon CV joints. As Doug pointed out each outer hub has 3 pairs of bearing races. Actually to call them pair is rather misleading as there are really not in pairs. Rather they have slanted bearing races alternating with respect to the two adjacent neighbors. /\/\/\ in a cyclical fashion. Similarly with the inner hub.
Let's examined closely for a moment at just one bearing ball. As far as this one bearing ball is concerned, its freedom of movements is confined by three things.
1) The bearing cage. The bearing cage serves one and only one function. It keeps all the 6 ducks in a row. We better leave this for now as it muddle up the pond water for the ball bearing ducks. 
2) The two bearing races this one ball sits in. One race is on the outer hub (das Ring) and the other on the inner hub (die Star). What is really interesting is this two bearing races forms a X. Because of the cross the bearing races formed, the bearing ball is squeezed if any torque is present. The definition of torque here is a force attempt to rotate the outer hub and the inner hub in opposition direction WRT each other. At first glance, one would incline to think the torque would create thrusting force to move the inner and outer hub WRT one another along the direction of the axle. It does not. This is a very important point to the central question.
If you go grab a spare CV (the Vanagon standard issued ones) and play with it. The outer hub's bearing races do not conform to a curved surface of a ball shape inner hub as in the above animation. Neither is the bearing races of the inner hub lend themselves to a knuckle-like articulation as in the animation. I should add, as a whole, our CV joint functions in a modified knuckle-like articulation.
The CV design in the animation articulates exactly like a simple ball joint (our's do not), but in addition, transmit the rotation of one shaft to the other. It however does not allow plunging or un-plunging of a shaft into or out of the joint.
Our Vanagon CV joints allows the plunging and un-plunging of the center axle shaft on the two CV joints at each end to afford the articulations of the suspension. I still cannot see how "our" CV joint design arbitrates the degree of axle plunge between the two CV joints. I do see, if the axle shaft length is properly selected, and that in the absence of the CV boots, the gravity will tend to plunge the center shaft into the outer CV and un-plunge from the inner CV.
If there were no CV boots, the spline end of the axle shaft, or the star shape inner hub will come into contact with the inner cup of the wheel flange, and this is one mechanism to prevent the bearing balls from dropping out of the bearing races - literally falling off the cliffs.
Though I can be wrong, the sheet metal flange of the CV boot also prevent the bearing balls from falling out of the bearing races and restrain the axle shaft's lateral movement. Of course if a unbounded suspension movement such that the unfolded Z of the axle system is stretched too far these two metal CV boot flange will break and the balls fall out of the bearing races.
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what Isolde wants Isolde doesn't always get, 4 I know what is best for her - Liebe macht frei |
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chase4food
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:42 am Post subject: Re: How do Vanagon CV joints keep the axle shaft center? |
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I added "Vanagon" to the title to clarify which CV joint design in which the central question I am raising.
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what Isolde wants Isolde doesn't always get, 4 I know what is best for her - Liebe macht frei |
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chase4food
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:13 am Post subject: Re: How does CV joints keep the axle shaft center? |
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| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
If I'm not mistaken, the joint in that video is like a typical fixed (non-plunging) style Rzeppa joint. The tracks are parallel to each other in one plane, but they are curved in the other. The curve in the track prevents the joint from plunging, but it also allows extreme angles (some up to 50 degrees from what I understand).
EDIT - Yes, those are definitely a non-plunging CV in that video. That style CV naturally stays centered since the inner star portion does not plunge and is therefore not applicable to the original question of what keeps the CVs like we use in our Vanagons centered. The only non-plunging CV used on a Vanagon would be for the Syncro front outer locations.
Here is the type of CV that he used in that video -
http://www.rcvperformance.com/product-details.aspx?sku=SI-15RF |
Chris, Thanks for the clear and concise answer.
Up until today, I have not been up to speed on the intricacy of the Syncro CV joints. I am with you on the animation now that is the Rzeppa CV typically use as the outer joint on a front wheel drive system. This joint do an no doubt fixed the movement of the axle shaft. So without the need to check the inner CV on a Syncro is the only side that fulfills the lengthening and contraction of the effective drive shaft length in order to accommodate the suspension articulations. Given this, my question applies only to the rear axles of the Vanagon. I believe they are more the less the same on a Syncro and the 2WD.
In Syncro Vanagon, there are two CV joint types. 
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chase4food
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:57 am Post subject: Re: How do CV joints keep the axle shaft center? |
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I spent a bit of time trying to clearly identify all the CV designs and their names. As very common when it comes to in depth technical information, Wikipedia is not to be trusted without cross checking.
For the rear wheel drive of Vanagon, it seems we have a modified Rzeppa, or not Rzeppa at all as the original Rzeppa invention is exactly that of the above animation. That is a Rzeppa use only for the front outer joints of the AWD Syncro. I have yet to find a name of the other CV used in Vanagon, except to call it plunging type modern 6-ball CV.
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what Isolde wants Isolde doesn't always get, 4 I know what is best for her - Liebe macht frei |
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tjet
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:56 am Post subject: Re: How does CV joints keep the axle shaft center? |
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| chase4food wrote: |
...
Our Vanagon CV joints allows the plunging and un-plunging of the center axle shaft on the two CV joints at each end to afford the articulations of the suspension. I still cannot see how "our" CV joint design arbitrates the degree of axle plunge between the two CV joints. I do see, if the axle shaft length is properly selected, and that in the absence of the CV boots, the gravity will tend to plunge the center shaft into the outer CV and un-plunge from the inner CV.
... |
The angle of the upper & lower control arms during suspension travel determines how much the axle (& CV's) will grow & shrink. One problem that happens is when someone replaces an axle with one that is too short. The axle starts to pull on the CV's beyond there normal "plunge" range. I think there was a thread that the bolts kept loosening as the axle itself was limiting suspension travel, & the CV was fighting the bolts.
Note, in some cars (like a old stingray corvette), the axle itself is the control arm (UCA). It's not allowed to plunge at all. U-joints are used - no CV's there. They don't make em like that anymore for obvious reasons |
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chase4food
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:08 am Post subject: Re: How does CV joints keep the axle shaft center? |
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| tjet wrote: |
| chase4food wrote: |
...
Our Vanagon CV joints allows the plunging and un-plunging of the center axle shaft on the two CV joints at each end to afford the articulations of the suspension. I still cannot see how "our" CV joint design arbitrates the degree of axle plunge between the two CV joints. I do see, if the axle shaft length is properly selected, and that in the absence of the CV boots, the gravity will tend to plunge the center shaft into the outer CV and un-plunge from the inner CV.
... |
The angle of the upper & lower control arms during suspension travel determines how much the axle (& CV's) will grow & shrink. One problem that happens is when someone replaces an axle with one that is too short. The axle starts to pull on the CV's beyond there normal "plunge" range. I think there was a thread that the bolts kept loosening as the axle itself was limiting suspension travel, & the CV was fighting the bolts.
Note, in some cars (like a old stingray corvette), the axle itself is the control arm (UCA). It's not allowed to plunge at all. They don't make em like that anymore for obvious reasons |
Too short or too long can both be catastrophic when the suspension travels to the limit.
It didn't escape me long ago (in hi school) that I noticed the old Corvette uses u-joints like those in American rear wheel drive truck for the independent suspension. So one would only infer they have to have sliding spline for the halfshafts unless the suspension designed so compromised to swing in a perfectly circular arc.
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what Isolde wants Isolde doesn't always get, 4 I know what is best for her - Liebe macht frei |
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tjet
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:00 am Post subject: Re: How does CV joints keep the axle shaft center? |
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I re-read your original question "what centers the axle?" I believe the CV joint has a built-in feature which centers the joint assembly by means of inertia. Maybe it's the angle of the ball grooves - I dont exactly know. I do know that if they are installed backwards you will have a problem
| chase4food wrote: |
| ... So one would only infer they have to have sliding spline for the halfshafts unless the suspension designed so compromised to swing in a perfectly circular arc. |
Actually, they cant move at all in an old vette (including the splines).
Take a look at this video. There is a c-clip failure at 1:42. That stubs that goes in the diff is supposed to stay put. You will see it slid out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIFZMa1pyX0
watch how the tire tilts way out when it happens - massive camber change.
You can see why this design is bad. Having a real upper control arm would have prevented this problem |
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Merian
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:14 am Post subject: Re: How do Vanagon CV joints keep the axle shaft center? |
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| the real way to investigate this would be to find a univ. with ME degrees, and get the textbook they use for their power transmission course |
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chase4food
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:43 am Post subject: Re: How do Vanagon CV joints keep the axle shaft center? |
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| Merian wrote: |
| the real way to investigate this would be to find a univ. with ME degrees, and get the textbook they use for their power transmission course |
There is no shortage of MEs on this forum. I just play one poorly. Text books often don't cover the complete subject in practical implementations.
The truth is I think it is not all that difficult mechanical design to analyse even for those without a formal ME training.
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what Isolde wants Isolde doesn't always get, 4 I know what is best for her - Liebe macht frei |
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chase4food
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: How do Vanagon CV joints keep the axle shaft center? |
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Call me obsessed if you will.  I looked at the CV joint again in my hands and try to analysis the actions. I took apart the joint and started only with the star inner hub nested in the outer hub, without the bearing cage. I placed them laying on a table top like a pancake.
I then drop a ball into one bearing race pair (formed by the inner hub and the outer ring). As I impart torque to the two hubs WRT to one another, the ball will rise and fall in the race when the two hubs rotate WRT to one another. Seeing this I thought what Chris said the tug of war between the two CV joints at each end of the axle will fight over themselves and settles more the less equally for their share of the axle plunge. I thought so goes out the window with my CV boot playing the role theory.
Not so fast. In an assembled CV the inner hub never rotates WRT the outer hub no matter how hard I try. I thought may be the aggregate of the friction of all 6 bearings that is the reason they don't rotate WRT each other because I cannot put enough torque with my feeble hands. Then I realized I am missing a crucial piece - the bearing cage. As I have wrote, the function of the bearing cage is to keep the bearing ball ducks in a row. It also restrain each and every ball from rising or falling as I try to rotate the inner hub WRT the outer hub. Once the bearing cage is added, even with just one ball, I can't rotate the inner hub WRT the outer hub. There is no end thrust force generated so the only mechanism that can arbitrate the spread of the axle plunge of the two CV joints are the two dust boots.
So what are the implications. The conditions and the strength (i.e. spring force) of the CV boot affect the wear spots of the bearing races in both CVs. The weaker the CV boot, the more the wear is further from the ideal mid point of the race. The more the at rest axle angle, the more bias force there is due to increase effect of gravity, flavoring more plunge into the outer CV.
Another thought that I have, and may not be received well. Bentley manual says to put in about 62 grams of grease in the CV joint. Yet all the credible people say it is better to put in about twice. Some say you can never over stuff it with grease. My thinking has always been grease migrate into the CV boot is not a good thing. The weight (mass) of the grease in the boot stress the boot when rotate at high speed. The centrifugal force will stretch the rubber boot and cause it to expand. May be the tradeoff to have more grease to ensure the bearings don't starve is better than having the boots stretched and stressed. I don't know.
If you can spot flaws in my observations, I am all ears. I just want to understand how our CV joints and axle work.
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what Isolde wants Isolde doesn't always get, 4 I know what is best for her - Liebe macht frei |
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