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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7468 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:36 pm Post subject: What's the real world handling loss going to 11/2" lift springs? |
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1990 2wd Westy camper, primarily driven on the road. 1 1/2" lift springs give the van more ground clearance and make it look (in some opinions) a bit better.
So, what's the real world compromise in going to 1 1/2" lift springs v. zero lift springs? It's a given that road manners will be compromised, but do you believe it was noticeable when you made the change to your van or spent time driving a van with lift springs?
Thanks for any objective or subjective snswers. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:45 pm Post subject: Re: What's the real world handling loss going to 11/2" lift springs? |
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oh oh, here we go again..................
sitting further off the ground will have a miniscule effect on the weight of the van, but an effect none the less. the mass will remain constant, but you'll be 1.5 inches further from the gravitational pull of the earth, so the van will weigh less. _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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newfisher Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2012 Posts: 1764 Location: The wet spot--Oregon
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: What's the real world handling loss going to 11/2" lift springs? |
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I have had stock, zero lift and 1.5 with a couple sets of tires. The 1.5s are progressive and handle a TON BETTER than the stock or even the zero lifts. I had General Grabbers with the zero lifts and have BFGs with the 1.5s The difference I feel is mostly the sidewall of the better tires and partly due to the progressive and stiffer 1.5s You wont want to go back once installed. Get a T3 techniques bar and a stiff side wall tire and love the decision. |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7468 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:57 pm Post subject: Re: What's the real world handling loss going to 11/2" lift springs? |
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Thanks for the responses. A bit of weight loss will be welcomed , as will improved handling. I already have the T3 anti-sway bar and am very pleased with it. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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boroko Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2012 Posts: 326 Location: S.W. Michigan
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:27 pm Post subject: Re: What's the real world handling loss going to 11/2" lift springs? |
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Quote: |
you'll be 1.5 inches further from the gravitational pull of the earth, so the van will weigh less. |
Now that's an angle I hadn't ever considered! _________________ '87 SyncroWesty: Smokey the Turtle, '85 SubiWesty: Chappie, '84 GTI, '86 GTI in full Rally trim,
previous: 2 Syncro tin tops, 2 Vanagons, 3 busses, 3 Ghias, 2 Jettas, a 411, a gas and a diesel Bunny and about 25 Beetles, one that only drove left. |
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tjet Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014 Posts: 3533 Location: CA & NM
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:41 am Post subject: Re: What's the real world handling loss going to 11/2" lift springs? |
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These are an inexpensive way to get the rear up.
http://www.gowesty.com/product-details.php?v=&id=4346
I just ordered a pair myself because I'm moving the spare tire to the rear ala Burley tire holder |
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davevickery Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2005 Posts: 2887 Location: Fort Collins, CO
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:10 am Post subject: Re: What's the real world handling loss going to 11/2" lift springs? |
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newfisher wrote: |
I have had stock, zero lift and 1.5 with a couple sets of tires. The 1.5s are progressive and handle a TON BETTER than the stock or even the zero lifts. I had General Grabbers with the zero lifts and have BFGs with the 1.5s The difference I feel is mostly the sidewall of the better tires and partly due to the progressive and stiffer 1.5s You wont want to go back once installed. Get a T3 techniques bar and a stiff side wall tire and love the decision. |
Newfisher, can you expound on that a bit? I would think the front progressive springs would be softer on the first bit of travel then harder, so you would feel more sway in corners and more bobbing in stops or over things like speed bumps, with the benefit being more cushy ride on small bumps. A non pregressive spring, I think would feel more stable in turns but a little rougher on cracks and potholes. In general, I found that the higher you go the more tipsy it feels. The stiffer springs I used helped offset that.
For a 2wd, I like the Moog 5658 front springs. They are stiffer so the van doesn't lean in corners. They also are cheap (but Moog is good quality) and they can easily be installed by yourself without a spring compressor. The lift is moderate, about equivalent to the GW "zero lift" springs which puts you close to 17" ride height. A very nice increase in clearance, looks and not too extreme. When I did that, I put GW zero lifts on the back which are also a simple install and it all matched very well for under $250 and a day's work. |
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detoxed Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2014 Posts: 68 Location: S. Florida
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:38 am Post subject: Re: What's the real world handling loss going to 11/2" lift springs? |
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Dave, the moog fronts and zero lift rears on a 2wd tintop or westy?
Thanks |
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newfisher Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2012 Posts: 1764 Location: The wet spot--Oregon
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:42 am Post subject: Re: What's the real world handling loss going to 11/2" lift springs? |
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I had General Grabbers with the zero lifts and have BFGs with the 1.5s The difference I feel is mostly the sidewall of the better tires
I did not have the Grabbers on with the 1.5s.
I had thought the Grabbers were a great economical aggressive tread tire that had good reviews until I punched a hole in the sidewall on a gravel road, sure a tiny poke but still crappy sidewalls. I upgraded to the BFG KM2s and when dismounting the Grabbers we reached inside both tires and compared the sidewalls---the BFGs are at least twice as thick. I am sure they handle 200% better in the corners than the Grabbers. Do the 1.5s handle better than zero lifts, or was it my tire upgrade? I think it was the tires. Either way , I love the handling with this set up, suby etc. |
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insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:37 am Post subject: Re: What's the real world handling loss going to 11/2" lift springs? |
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BFGs and T3's 25mm swaybar are two upgrades, hard to beat |
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davevickery Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2005 Posts: 2887 Location: Fort Collins, CO
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:19 am Post subject: Re: What's the real world handling loss going to 11/2" lift springs? |
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detoxed wrote: |
Dave, the moog fronts and zero lift rears on a 2wd tintop or westy?
Thanks |
I had that setup on a Westy. I had a 1/2" spacer in the left rear and it was nice and level at around 17". It is a nice amount of lift, you can run up to 27.5" tires without rubbing. I liked the extra ground clearance with the springs and an inch taller tires. I noticed much less nose dive in hard braking and my upper control arm bushings didn't squeak near as much because it wasn't bobbing up and down as much. I kept the same stock shocks. On a previous van I went with the Konis and didn't feel it made much difference. You can certainly spend more, but I think this is the best bang for your buck. |
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Red Beard Samba Member
Joined: May 09, 2006 Posts: 463 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: What's the real world handling loss going to 11/2" lift springs? |
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bluebus86 wrote: |
oh oh, here we go again..................
sitting further off the ground will have a miniscule effect on the weight of the van, but an effect none the less. the mass will remain constant, but you'll be 1.5 inches further from the gravitational pull of the earth, so the van will weigh less. |
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avernon82 Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2015 Posts: 292 Location: Richmond,CA
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: What's the real world handling loss going to 11/2" lift springs? |
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I have the GW zero lift springs with .5 in spacer back right, 1 in spacer back left and 3/8 inch spacer front left.
This got me all level with a small lift in the back. Also running Bilsteins and 215 65-16 tires, no rubbing. I like these size tires, about 6% bigger than stock
Barely still fits in my garage |
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j_dirge Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007 Posts: 4641 Location: Twain Harte, CA
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: What's the real world handling loss going to 11/2" lift springs? |
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I did not do the full 1.5" lift.
I did a spring which gave about a 3/4" lift. The rear has a 1/2" spacer added.
I added the big 25mm sway bar, in front
I added Bilstein HD shocks, front.. and air lift shocks in the rear.
I added a rear sway bar.
I added a tall but stiff sidewall tire. (D-rated)
I added all new bushings.. with some key bushings in polyu.
The handling, in spite of the van being much taller (+/-3.0" at roof top).. is far superior for my tastes.. than the stock set up.
Next round will get a slightly less stiff tire.. slightly less tall..
The shocks may get cycled out for Rancho adjustables..
..but the sway bars stay.
My own personal opinion:
The front AND rrear sway bars ere the BIGGEST bang for buck among the entire list above _________________ -89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7468 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:49 am Post subject: Re: What's the real world handling loss going to 11/2" lift springs? |
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davevickery wrote: |
Newfisher, can you expound on that a bit? I would think the front progressive springs would be softer on the first bit of travel then harder, so you would feel more sway in corners and more bobbing in stops or over things like speed bumps, with the benefit being more cushy ride on small bumps. A non pregressive spring, I think would feel more stable in turns but a little rougher on cracks and potholes. In general, I found that the higher you go the more tipsy it feels. The stiffer springs I used helped offset that.
For a 2wd, I like the Moog 5658 front springs. They are stiffer so the van doesn't lean in corners. They also are cheap (but Moog is good quality) and they can easily be installed by yourself without a spring compressor. The lift is moderate, about equivalent to the GW "zero lift" springs which puts you close to 17" ride height. A very nice increase in clearance, looks and not too extreme. When I did that, I put GW zero lifts on the back which are also a simple install and it all matched very well for under $250 and a day's work. |
1) I don't think the progressives have to be softer initially. It seems they can be made using an oem spring rate that performs as an oem spring and gets stiffer as the tightly would coils make contact. That was my assumption. Is that assumption reasonable or not?
2) Thanks for the Moog 5658 tip. Your observations are similar to what I'm hoping to achieve. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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Royb Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2008 Posts: 228 Location: Sierra Foothills
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Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:57 am Post subject: Re: What's the real world handling loss going to 11/2" lift springs? |
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My Gwesty lifty progressives with Bilsteins sure feely mushy- maybe more so than the old stockers. But I like the addtl height... _________________ 1991 Westy |
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rryyoobbii Samba Member
Joined: September 27, 2013 Posts: 64 Location: Vancouver Island
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Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: What's the real world handling loss going to 11/2" lift springs? |
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X2 on the gowesty springs being too mushy. When going higher it's nice to keep things stiff. Syncro.org springs and shims work best imo. This is subjective advice. _________________ 92 Syncro Doka 16
86 Syncro Doka WBX
86 Syncro Westy TDI |
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IdahoDoug Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010 Posts: 10250 Location: N. Idaho
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Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:02 pm Post subject: Re: What's the real world handling loss going to 11/2" lift springs? |
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In terms of a 1.5" lift and its effect(sp edit) on handling, there is going to be a deterioration. As someone mentioned, moving the center of gravity up 1.5" all by itself is a challenge that even the manufacturer will struggle to resolve with a staff of engineers and a big budget. If either the rear or the front is up or down in this process, then the challenge is redoubled.
To truly achieve "no impact" and have the Van handle the same as before would require stiffer springs, which then deteriorate ride quality. But then you'd introduce a lot of odd body movements that true tuning would eventually either mitigate or bring below the threshold of acceptability.
To handle "better" than before would require serious effort and engineering.
Part of the program would be new shocks with their damping characteristics tailored to the spring's new height, the spring's new rate (progressive, regressive, neutral, some combination) the change in spring rate from the front springs to the rear springs, etc etc. Eventually, you'd arrive at a handling behavior set similar to the original one but always compromised by the elevated center of gravity. That's physics.
It's worth noting that many/most/all people who consider the handling "better" are replacing tired shocks and springs. You'd also want to know if they have stock tire size as this changes things still further in terms of applicability of the opinions to the OP's question.
I suspect if someone installed new factory springs and shocks, the ride and handling would be no less than astonishing in its smoothness, composure over bumps, predictability in emergencies, and ability to handle varying loads and road irregularities. In other words, YMMV. _________________ 1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader
Last edited by IdahoDoug on Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
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Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:31 pm Post subject: Re: What's the real world handling loss going to 11/2" lift springs? |
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Syncro.org/Schwenk Springs and Fox adjustables are sweet on a Syncro.
Add 215/75/15s with a T3technique 25mm swaybar and you are stylin'.
Progressives arent for me or my vans.
Stacking coils and porpoising while braking buggs the crap out of me.
I cant believe how many vans ride that way |
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IdahoDoug Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010 Posts: 10250 Location: N. Idaho
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Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:42 pm Post subject: Re: What's the real world handling loss going to 11/2" lift springs? |
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I'm with you. Not only the number of vans that are driving around that way, but pickup as well. It's a difficult thing to lift any vehicle and avoid creating a jouncy ride, darty handling, brake dive and other ills. If you are not already scraping the undercarriage offroad, then the need for it should comprehend the compromises.
Even with friends that have too much money who have had vehicles lifted professionally, the sequence seems to be:
Month 1: I love it.
Month 2: I like it.
Month 6: It's OK, not sure if I should have done this.
Month 12: I am so sick of the way this thing rides. I always take the other car. _________________ 1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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