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Fozzy
Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2012
Posts: 209
Location: United States
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 Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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Well.. yesterday was a good day.. car fired up and ran it all over town,, great fun. Today, fired up perfectly.. ran to Harbor Freight tools and then the grocery store.. came out of the grocery store.. cranked about three good turns then instantly started dragging like the battery was flat.. cranked it for approximately 15 seconds or even less three times.. and it stopped cranking.. walked home in the heat. got my pick up.. drove the bug grabbed the groceries and the battery and came home. I checked the battery and it reads 6.19 volts. I would instantly think battery.. but hell I dunno. I have started researching the 6 volt system and really want to make this work. The battery's positive terminal seems like its "sunk in" and the plastic case seems a little wonky there. The battery is on the charger and I'll try again later. I am going to take the battery to Autozone and see if they can load test it... 
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65 Sedan..
Adopted 07/15/17
this is the bug I've been looking for..
71 Tin Top Westy
Adopted Dec or so 2017 |
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bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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yup, get it load tested. you could also but that 6 volt back in the Bug and use a 12 volt battery to jump staet the Bug. You can safely jump start the 6 volt car with 12 volts so long as you have the 6 volt battery installed. the 6 volt battery will draw down the 12 volts for cranking purposes. make sure you are quick at removing the jumper as soon as motor starts up. I have done this many many times, it works (I also recommend turning off radio and acessorys like the lights, but that should be done anyway when jumping.
The charging system should be checked if battery has prematurely died.
Also check water level under the battery caps, top off to fill line only with DISTILLED WATER. Keep an eye on level as it can change during the charge. do not attempt to charge nor use a battery with plates not covered with water. do not over fill as during charging, level may rise from boiling and over flow, quicker higher amp chargers heat up the battery more than a low current charger.
good luck
_________________
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34002
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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| bluebus86 wrote: |
| You can safely jump start the 6 volt car with 12 volts so long as you have the 6 volt battery installed. the 6 volt battery will draw down the 12 volts for cranking purposes. make sure you are quick at removing the jumper as soon as motor starts up. I have done this many many times, it works (I also recommend turning off radio and acessorys like the lights, but that should be done anyway when jumping. |
Yes, I have done this many times. Like posted, disconnect quickly after starting to not fry anything, such as dash lights and perhaps the regulator. With the back seat cushion lifted up, it's an easy reach back to pull one of the cables off the moment it starts up. |
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Fozzy
Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2012
Posts: 209
Location: United States
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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I checked the water level and the appearance of the low spot on the positive side got my attention. I'm VERY new to six volt but it really seemed like I pulled the battery down pretty bad.. got it home and its showing over 6 volts. Most batteries that I've ever dealt with they have done this before (showing good voltage but having not enough amperage to grunt things out. The bug the last couple of days has fired with very little cranking, today like the day I brought it home it seems really puny and unable to get things going.
_________________
65 Sedan..
Adopted 07/15/17
this is the bug I've been looking for..
71 Tin Top Westy
Adopted Dec or so 2017 |
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Fozzy
Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2012
Posts: 209
Location: United States
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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Charged the battery for about an hour .. took it down to Autozone and they load tested it.. tested out fine.. so the issue HAS to be (yeah right) the cable or connection from the battery to the starter. The ignition in the dash must be turned on, but the ignition part is dead.. so there is a remote starter that is used to start it. I dropped the battery back into the car hooked it up till the connections were TIGHT.. and the bug fired right up. It either fires right up or it doesn't get enough power to the starter to crank the engine strong.. and in other news my pick up truck is now electrically dead.. YAY me!
_________________
65 Sedan..
Adopted 07/15/17
this is the bug I've been looking for..
71 Tin Top Westy
Adopted Dec or so 2017 |
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Fozzy
Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2012
Posts: 209
Location: United States
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:36 pm Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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Work has begun.. but not much.. its friggen hot out there! Started pulling things and checking and cleaning connections. There are a few things I need some input on. The positive batter cable goes from the battery to the starter then the starter to the generator/engine compartment. That section of wire from the engine compartment to the starter has got a connector about in the middle of the cable. I want to pull that and get to one solid piece of cable. I would also like to get rid of the remote starter set up if possible. I'm looking at a new battery cable for sure as this one seems like its seen a lot of duty.. I'm at least started! 
_________________
65 Sedan..
Adopted 07/15/17
this is the bug I've been looking for..
71 Tin Top Westy
Adopted Dec or so 2017 |
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rockerarm
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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| Fozzy wrote: |
| That section of wire from the engine compartment to the starter has got a connector about in the middle of the cable. I want to pull that and get to one solid piece of cable. I'm at least started! |
That section of wire is perfect to perform a voltage drop test on. Everything electrical flows thru that one section of wire.
DVOM positive on starter post and DVOM negative on Volt Reg connector. DVOM on dc volt scale. Turn headlights on and document drop. Engage starter and document reading. Hopefully you will see more that .1v to .2v drop.
Hope this helps, Bill.
You can even perform this test across your "dead" ignition switch. |
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Fozzy
Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2012
Posts: 209
Location: United States
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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I'm gonna have to go get some REEEEAALLY long test leads.. how do you hook up something to the starter AND the regulator? This is already really starting to be fun! I love learning things on cars.. the more I learn, the less I have to rely on wizards and magicians at shops.. I hate not knowing stuff! 
_________________
65 Sedan..
Adopted 07/15/17
this is the bug I've been looking for..
71 Tin Top Westy
Adopted Dec or so 2017 |
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SamboSamba22
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2015
Posts: 2772
Location: Benton, Arkansas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:32 am Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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Fozzy,
You are applying persistent and methodical diagnosis to the issue at hand, I do believe the beetle is in the right ownership. Sorry for hearing of the added exercise in this heat wave across the states, but I truly think you are on the verge of making the joys of cruising in that ruby red car a whole lot sweeter.
You are applying time and effort to the car that I really lacked, well, hindered for I was selfish and spent all my time to buses, what a goof!
Keep at it, and I’ll be following along.
_________________
The Bus Barn Ltd. Co.
Oct. ’67 Double Cab (’68 Crew Cab)
[url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-44412.png]Click to view image[/URL]
March '69 Delivery (Panel Bus)
[url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-44414.png]Click to view image[/URL] |
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rockerarm
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:52 am Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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Hi. Yes, some additional jumper leads are gonna be necessary. Probably the common lengths are 2 or 3 foot lengths that even HF carry. But since I tend to work alone and have begun to show folks about this voltage drop testing I made a pair of 12ga leads about 8-10 feet long.
So, to the testing. The DVOM will be hooked up at two ends of a wire that is questionable. The DVOM will be on the dc volts scale generally less than 20. The unique thing about this test is it is quick and the volt meter does all the math. Polarity of the lead hookup is not important. Basically, and it is basic, the voltmeter will measure the voltage at each end of the suspected wire and do the math and display the difference (ie: differential) between those two points. The key thing with this testing is during the testing voltage needs to be applied for the voltmeter to measure something.
In your car, as well as all 6v cars, this lead in question is a very important wire as it is one of the wires that all components in the car get their voltage from. This wire feeds the front of the car.
Hook up the DVOM positive lead to the starter post and the other DVOM negative lead to the connection (B+) at the voltage reg. Meter on dc volts about 20v scale. With nothing (on the car) turned on the meter will show nothing as no voltage is flowing. Since this wire is part of the main wire for everything then basically every electrical item can be tested here for a voltage drop/loss. The small voltage demand parts such as a dome light or radio draw very little so highly doubt you'd see anything on your volt meter. But the bigger demand parts such as starter solenoid, headlights, wiper should show something if this wire has an issue with it. With a component turned on such as the headlights you might see something on your volt meter here and that reading is the voltage drop, or the voltage that was lost between the two points of where the volt meter is hooked up to.
Hope this helps, Bill |
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rockerarm
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:07 am Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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| Fozzy wrote: |
| I'm gonna have to go get some REEEEAALLY long test leads.. how do you hook up something to the starter AND the regulator? This is already really starting to be fun! I love learning things on cars.. the more I learn, the less I have to rely on wizards and magicians at shops.. I hate not knowing stuff! |
Hi. Lets perform a really easy voltage drop/loss test with your DVOM at the fuse box. I think the easiest will be any of the headlight fuses (circuits).
Connect the volt meter leads to each of a headlight fuse. If you lack some jumper leads then you may require two people. With the volt meter on dc volts about 20v scale and headlights on you might see a small voltage drop across the fuse. Now, twirl the fuse with your fingers, or push downward slightly, and see if the volt meter can detect any resistance across the fuse. Now remove the fuse and you should see a 6v voltage drop, or loss, across that fuse.
You can use this to test a complete circuit (from batt to headlight), a small length of wire, any switch (headlight or ignition), or the ground circuit back to its source (battery).
Hope this helps, Bill. |
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Fozzy
Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2012
Posts: 209
Location: United States
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:16 am Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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| SamboSamba22 wrote: |
Fozzy,
You are applying persistent and methodical diagnosis to the issue at hand, I do believe the beetle is in the right ownership. Sorry for hearing of the added exercise in this heat wave across the states, but I truly think you are on the verge of making the joys of cruising in that ruby red car a whole lot sweeter.
You are applying time and effort to the car that I really lacked, well, hindered for I was selfish and spent all my time to buses, what a goof!
Keep at it, and I’ll be following along. |
I would have love to get into the buses.. but I just cannot rationalize the prices of them any longer. My Dad bought a new 71 bus on Guam (for like $1999) and it was the greatest thing ever.. He sold it a few years back. I am from the years where the Buses and Bugs where driven by real people who loved and lived and rose to the challenge of keeping VW's running down the road on nothing but the willpower and desires of VW folks. We met together yearly and bug events and shared the love and told the tales of keeping them alive.. it was a cult.. and it was fun. I attended the Bugorama in Sacramento last year and it was just different.. the people who have VW junk are selling it to the highest bidders.. the people buy buses (and to a slightly lesser degree bugs) now are people who do not drive, work on or even know VW's.. they are mostly just posers with loads of money. I get irritated now because these people show up with a bus or bug that someone else did all the work on and try to insert themselves into the old cult..
Sorry.. Rant off! LOL
_________________
65 Sedan..
Adopted 07/15/17
this is the bug I've been looking for..
71 Tin Top Westy
Adopted Dec or so 2017 |
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SamboSamba22
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2015
Posts: 2772
Location: Benton, Arkansas
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Fozzy
Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2012
Posts: 209
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:05 am Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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| SamboSamba22 wrote: |
Fozzy,
We having any luck tracking down our culprit?
I’m glad there are a handful of folks stepping in with viable knowledge, I really want this car to be loved.
Be careful out your way, the heat index yesterday had it feeling like a 110*, I know it can’t be much cooler. |
It starts a bit better.. but the ignition is still not working. My Mechanic buddy showed up and While I took my dad to the VFW he tinkered around with it and got more lights working and took it for a test drive.. We did a voltage drop test at the starter from the ignition and it was 5.9 volts. The remote starter gives 6.1 volts. I cannot imagine that the 5.9 volts does nothing.. But as you say.. its ridiculously hot out there. I took yesterday off and hid in the house as the day before I was out in it all day. I really want the 6 volt system to work.. The connections that I cleaned up and the ground strap I replaced should do something,, but we'll see. I had to remove the tarboards as they were sagging, coming apart and were awfully close to the fan inlet. But I may brave the heat and go for a drive.. 
_________________
65 Sedan..
Adopted 07/15/17
this is the bug I've been looking for..
71 Tin Top Westy
Adopted Dec or so 2017 |
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rockerarm
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:47 am Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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Hi. By just checking the voltage at the starter as you did you didn't perform a true voltage drop test.
View this video and see if it helps you guys out. Remember, after he verifies he has a fully charged up battery he tests 3 circuits.
1- Batt positive
2- Batt negative
3- Solenoid, or switch circuit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMXENKujYtc
The key item to remember is the meter is measuring the voltage loss, or differential, between any two points that the DVOM probes are at.
Also, this test is with a 12v system so factor this in with the readings.
BUT, the voltage drop/loss numbers are the same for either system (6v or 12v) and the standard is approx. .1v to .2v drop for most tests here.
Finally, key in on the electrical board has a starter relay. Because VW didn't install one members do get flamed when they mention the addition of the relay.
Hope this helps, Bill. |
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Fozzy
Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2012
Posts: 209
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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Went out on an excursion.. parked on a hill.. its a good thing. I had to gravity start it.. One of the connectors to the remote start switch broke off. Its frustrating. I will watch the video for sure as I apparently need all the help I can get. With all the new electrical goodies on this bug ought to be starting and charging fine... This is the one issue this bug has that is making it less that fun. Can't trust it, cannot take it anywhere and not look like a moron,
_________________
65 Sedan..
Adopted 07/15/17
this is the bug I've been looking for..
71 Tin Top Westy
Adopted Dec or so 2017 |
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Fozzy
Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2012
Posts: 209
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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Great video! Now when I get my help back and or the temps outside get below 100+.. I'll tinker some more. I do have to get out to the store and find some soldered connectors and replace all of the crimp style connectors from everything in this remote starter doober
_________________
65 Sedan..
Adopted 07/15/17
this is the bug I've been looking for..
71 Tin Top Westy
Adopted Dec or so 2017 |
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rockerarm
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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| Fozzy wrote: |
| Went out on an excursion.. parked on a hill.. its a good thing. I had to gravity start it.. One of the connectors to the remote start switch broke off. Its frustrating. I will watch the video for sure as I apparently need all the help I can get. With all the new electrical goodies on this bug ought to be starting and charging fine... This is the one issue this bug has that is making it less that fun. Can't trust it, cannot take it anywhere and not look like a moron, |
Hey, don't beat yourself up on the need all the help comment. I've been in this car industry for 4 decades and just got around to applying it as much as I can.
About 10 years ago neighbor across the street has a warehouse full of classic cars all on battery tenders. The car he preferred to drive to our local cemetery on Sundays to clean his fathers site was a restored '65 bug and still 6v. When he would leave the car would not start. Since I was not there it was difficult to get the symptoms described to me but I dug into it thinking no problem, easy stuff. I got easily frustrated as the owner was standing over me and to him should e an easy diagnosis. I wasn't savvy on the voltage drop test then and not sure if it would have diagnosed it quickly. But, eventually using other flinstone methods the symptom went away.
Just stick with it and take your time. The end statement is if you don't find a cause for this but the symptom goes away did you actually find/fix or an I don't know. Confidence is a big part of trusting the car to do what it is supposed to do. |
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SamboSamba22
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Joined: August 06, 2015
Posts: 2772
Location: Benton, Arkansas
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Fozzy
Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2012
Posts: 209
Location: United States
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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I got the floor patch in and on the way home the car quit again. First I thought it was fuel.. then after fuel.. it wasnt. Cranks but no start. I had it towed home and stuffed in it the garage and took a break from it. pulled the wiper assembly out, disassembled it, cleaned and painted ever thing paintable. I got some replacement parts for the wiper system (grommets, washers plastic doodads). Got the new points and condenser (Bosch), pulled the distributor out of the car and got them replaced in about 15 minutes.. OCD attack.. noticed that the distributor clamp is pretty beaten up and twisted... so its another trip out to the bug graveyard to source another. Not in a hurry.. just taking things as they come.. but this bug sure is fighting me.
Second update of the day.. its not the points and condenser.. I will move on to other things soon.. but not today.
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65 Sedan..
Adopted 07/15/17
this is the bug I've been looking for..
71 Tin Top Westy
Adopted Dec or so 2017 |
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