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lucianosanchez Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2016 Posts: 212 Location: Ventura County
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 8:31 pm Post subject: Fix or replace Vanagon engine? |
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Scroll to "The Problem" to skip intro.
Hi everyone, this is my first post and my first Westfalia so I am excited to be a part of this forum and plan to be more active as the days go by. First, I would like to introduce myself. My name is Luciano, 24 from Ventura County, California. My wife and I purchased a 1983 VW Westfalia with a 2.1 engine. The van needs some work and I expected that when purchasing it. Our plan is to get the van working and performing well enough for road trips and adventures.
The problem:
While driving the van back from where we purchased it, the van overheated and stopped working. Obviously the engine was not cooling how it should. Apparently there was coolant spilling, possibly from a malfunctioning thermostat or a clogged hose, I'm really not sure what went wrong.
What I do know is that the engine now does not work. When I try to turn the engine on (I try not to to prevent more damage) the engine does start but does not sound happy, it makes a clanking sound.
While driving it back (before overheating) the engine ran and sounded great. The PO did mention that the engine was gone through and checked before which from my understating is how it is a 2.1 engine now.
The Million Dollar Question hopefully less than that:
What should I do? Repair the engine that appeared to be running fine? Although I've never worked on an engine before, from what I've read I am fairly confident that I would be to perform the work required. With time and patience that is.
Or should I swallow the pill and replace the engine for a new one? I've already looked around and they seem pricey... GoWesty and Vanagain. GoWesty seems to be the better option but more expensive.
I have also looked into a conversion which sounds great (Bostig ztec) but I live in the strictest state, good old Cali...
Whichever option I choose, (replace or rebuild) I am definitely going through the cooling system and making sure that it works 100%. Probably replacing all lines and flushing the whole thing.
Anyway, that is my dilemma. I am pretty bummed that this happened but at the same time glad because I would hate if this happened on my way to a long trip. If anyone has experience or advice I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you for reading and for your time.
Luciano _________________ 1983.5 Aussan Brown Westfalia | 2016 to 2020
1983.5 Beige Westfalia | 2019 to Current |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7462 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: Fix or replace Vanagon engine? |
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Welcome! I think you'll learn a lot here and enjoy doing it.
What should you do?
1 - diagnose the problem (much more info is needed)
2 - assess your budget ($2K, $20K)
3 - identify affordable solutions
4 - choose and proceed
Others will surely chime in with details.
As for suggestions, I'm ready to be the one to say that all failed wbx motors should be replaced with conversions. The wbx motors should be passed on to the true believers to keep the fleet running as antiques and curiosities. The rest of us can use these rigs as updated, modern era cars.
Start digging in and have fun! _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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lucianosanchez Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2016 Posts: 212 Location: Ventura County
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 9:08 pm Post subject: Re: Fix or replace Vanagon engine? |
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jimf909 wrote: |
Welcome! I think you'll learn a lot here and enjoy doing it.
What should you do?
1 - diagnose the problem (much more info is needed)
2 - assess your budget ($2K, $20K)
3 - identify affordable solutions
4 - choose and proceed
Others will surely chime in with details.
As for suggestions, I'm ready to be the one to say that all failed wbx motors should be replaced with conversions. The wbx motors should be passed on to the true believers to keep the fleet running as antiques and curiosities. The rest of us can use these rigs as updated, modern era cars.
Start digging in and have fun! |
Thank you jimf909, glad to be here.
As far as diagnosing the problem, what is recommended for this?
Removing the engine and taking it apart or leaving it on the van and having someone else take a look at it (maybe posting a video here).
I would love a conversion but like I said I live in California and the rules here appear to be strict. I was specially interested in the ztec conversion.
Thanks for the reply _________________ 1983.5 Aussan Brown Westfalia | 2016 to 2020
1983.5 Beige Westfalia | 2019 to Current |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12114 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 9:32 pm Post subject: Re: Fix or replace Vanagon engine? |
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Before the conversionators work themselves into a frenzy, you need to run a compression test on the engine (assuming it still turns over), and a coolant system test in order to help determine what went wrong. Then you can decide what if anything needs to be done to/with the engine. _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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WestyBob Samba Member
Joined: June 11, 2004 Posts: 2346 Location: Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: Fix or replace Vanagon engine? |
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I'd recommend you take the rig to a 'good' mechanic and get this issue(s) fixed. Before this I'd check around with other fellow vanagon owners in your burg and get some shop recommendations or go to Roadhaus.com and see if there are any recommended shops in your area.
I'm guessing this may be the lowest cost route and also get your rig up and running in a short time.
If in the worst case the engine is predicted to be shot or way expensive to repair then you are at a decision point (rebuild, wbxer replace, conversion) depending on your budget and skills.
Welcome to the club. I doubt there are very many on this forum that haven't encountered similar problems. Take a deep breath, have patience and get it fixed by the numbers. |
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Love My Westy Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007 Posts: 1837
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 9:45 pm Post subject: Re: Fix or replace Vanagon engine? |
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Have you talked to the person who sold it to you? It seems like they might have sold you a bad motor. Maybe you could take it back to them. I think they bear some responsibility. |
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Mellow Yellow 74 Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2014 Posts: 1615 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 10:51 pm Post subject: Re: Fix or replace Vanagon engine? |
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Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
Before the conversionators work themselves into a frenzy, you need to run a compression test on the engine (assuming it still turns over), and a coolant system test in order to help determine what went wrong. Then you can decide what if anything needs to be done to/with the engine. |
Very sensible advice, common sense is not that common here _________________ 1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
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lucianosanchez Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2016 Posts: 212 Location: Ventura County
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 11:04 pm Post subject: Re: Fix or replace Vanagon engine? |
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Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
Before the conversionators work themselves into a frenzy, you need to run a compression test on the engine (assuming it still turns over), and a coolant system test in order to help determine what went wrong. Then you can decide what if anything needs to be done to/with the engine. |
That kind of information is what I am looking for, thanks Zeitgeist 13. I will look into doing a compression test, problem is the engine does turn but sounds dangerous to keep running. I will look further. _________________ 1983.5 Aussan Brown Westfalia | 2016 to 2020
1983.5 Beige Westfalia | 2019 to Current |
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lucianosanchez Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2016 Posts: 212 Location: Ventura County
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 11:08 pm Post subject: Re: Fix or replace Vanagon engine? |
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WestyBob wrote: |
I'd recommend you take the rig to a 'good' mechanic and get this issue(s) fixed. Before this I'd check around with other fellow vanagon owners in your burg and get some shop recommendations or go to Roadhaus.com and see if there are any recommended shops in your area.
I'm guessing this may be the lowest cost route and also get your rig up and running in a short time.
If in the worst case the engine is predicted to be shot or way expensive to repair then you are at a decision point (rebuild, wbxer replace, conversion) depending on your budget and skills.
Welcome to the club. I doubt there are very many on this forum that haven't encountered similar problems. Take a deep breath, have patience and get it fixed by the numbers. |
You've got some good thinking points here WestyBob. I will look Roadhaus.com for recommendations, thanks for that. _________________ 1983.5 Aussan Brown Westfalia | 2016 to 2020
1983.5 Beige Westfalia | 2019 to Current |
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lucianosanchez Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2016 Posts: 212 Location: Ventura County
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 11:19 pm Post subject: Re: Fix or replace Vanagon engine? |
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Love My Westy wrote: |
Have you talked to the person who sold it to you? It seems like they might have sold you a bad motor. Maybe you could take it back to them. I think they bear some responsibility. |
Hi Love My Westy. I purchased the van on eBay as a bid. I think the PO had only good intentions when selling it. He did say that it "might not make it home". I took the chance of driving it back. Like I said, the engine sounded and ran great before overheating. I just so happened to be unlucky and have the cooling system fail on me.
What I should have done was stop and access the condition before continuing to drive. You live and learn and that's all I can do at this point. Thanks for your suggestion. _________________ 1983.5 Aussan Brown Westfalia | 2016 to 2020
1983.5 Beige Westfalia | 2019 to Current |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32574 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 3:25 am Post subject: Re: Fix or replace Vanagon engine? |
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First things first...... WELCOME!!!
I am sorry that you have such serious problems so early.
These units have their "quirks" which you will discover soon enough.
Sadly, the cooling system is one of those quirks.
Have you refilled the cooling system?
If so, are there any obvious leaks?
When it overheated, did you happen to notice the temperature gauge rise or it's warning light illuminate?
This cooling system is very large with many connections so a leak isn't unheard of.
Know that these engines are quite tough, many have overheated them and continue to drive the same engine today.
The "Clanking" noise gives me pause........
I might put forth that the water pump has gone bad and the shaft has a lot of play in it.
Just for fun and giggles, remove the alternator belt and start the engine briefly.
Does that clanking noise no longer exist?
Any other noises related to overheating would be deeper sounding.
Also these engines often suffer from hydraulic lifter valve ticking.
I would also suggest an engine oil change for cooked engine oil loses some of it's designed properties.
Let us know what you find
Many here have cut their mechanic teeth on these rigs viewing DIY Vanagon repair as part of the price and enjoyment of the hobby.
Don't panic yet!
Not until you KNOW what is wrong.
Your cooling system needs obvious repair, but focus on your engine for the moment.
Dave _________________ Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22639 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 3:52 am Post subject: Re: Fix or replace Vanagon engine? |
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Post a short video clip here of the engine noise at idle. 5-10 seconds max
Usually we can tell internal engine damage noise from video.
Hopefully it's something easier...welcome!! _________________ .ssS! |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32574 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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lucianosanchez Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2016 Posts: 212 Location: Ventura County
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 7:04 am Post subject: Re: Fix or replace Vanagon engine? |
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djkeev wrote: |
Have you refilled the cooling system?
If so, are there any obvious leaks?
When it overheated, did you happen to notice the temperature gauge rise or it's warning light illuminate? |
Hi djkeev,
Thanks for the input and suggestions. As far as the temperature gauge, I don't know if it illuminated or not. The reason why I say this is because I believe the PO took apart the dashboard and dint connect things correctly so a lot of instruments do not work.
Short answer, I think the light was on but the light is always on. I will have to double check.
djkeev wrote: |
I might put forth that the water pump has gone bad and the shaft has a lot of play in it. |
I will look into this. I know that the water pump was replaced and was pretty new when I bought it.
djkeev wrote: |
Just for fun and giggles, remove the alternator belt and start the engine briefly.
Does that clanking noise no longer exist? |
I will try this soon and let everyone know what happens
djkeev wrote: |
I would also suggest an engine oil change for cooked engine oil loses some of it's designed properties.
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I will do this too. I have a few extra bottles, I'll just have to get a couple more. _________________ 1983.5 Aussan Brown Westfalia | 2016 to 2020
1983.5 Beige Westfalia | 2019 to Current |
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lucianosanchez Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2016 Posts: 212 Location: Ventura County
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Fix or replace Vanagon engine? |
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Abscate wrote: |
Post a short video clip here of the engine noise at idle. 5-10 seconds max
Usually we can tell internal engine damage noise from video.
Hopefully it's something easier...welcome!! |
Thanks Abscate! I will try to put a video together to show you guys what is happening.
djkeev wrote: |
Agree! ^^^^
Now it is easy........ Type [youtube] put the link here [/youtube] (no spaces)
[youtube]insertvideoaddress[/youtube] |
Great, thanks for the tip djkeev. _________________ 1983.5 Aussan Brown Westfalia | 2016 to 2020
1983.5 Beige Westfalia | 2019 to Current |
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nacradriver Samba Member
Joined: January 15, 2009 Posts: 760 Location: Ventura, CA
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 7:18 am Post subject: Re: Fix or replace Vanagon engine? |
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lucianosanchez wrote: |
WestyBob wrote: |
I'd recommend you take the rig to a 'good' mechanic and get this issue(s) fixed. Before this I'd check around with other fellow vanagon owners in your burg and get some shop recommendations or go to Roadhaus.com and see if there are any recommended shops in your area.
I'm guessing this may be the lowest cost route and also get your rig up and running in a short time.
If in the worst case the engine is predicted to be shot or way expensive to repair then you are at a decision point (rebuild, wbxer replace, conversion) depending on your budget and skills.
Welcome to the club. I doubt there are very many on this forum that haven't encountered similar problems. Take a deep breath, have patience and get it fixed by the numbers. |
You've got some good thinking points here WestyBob. I will look Roadhaus.com for recommendations, thanks for that. |
McCullen Motors in Oxnard... would be a good place to start....
http://mccullenmotors.com/
Swedish Performance in Camarillo
Both know the Vanagon inside and out
I would also recommend Gary Betz.... but I think he retired and his step son is running the business now... _________________ Güdrun -1989 Westfalia - 2013 - 2018
Petra - 1985 Vanagon - 1985 to 1991
Zisa - 1974 VW Van "Bus" - 1974 to 1985 |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50334
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 8:02 am Post subject: Re: Fix or replace Vanagon engine? |
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The early 83 models came with 2.0L air cooled engine, while the later 83 models came with a 1.9L watercooled engine. Either way if you have a 2.1L it is not the stock engine for your year, and whatever was done to do the conversion may not have been done all that well. Pictures of your vehicle, both of the front and showing the entire engine top and bottom would help in figuring out exactly what you have.
If your engine is making heavy mechanical noises it may well be shot so even if it has good compression it would not be cheaply fixable. Maybe the best thing you can do is pick up an engine from someone who is doing a swap to a Subaru, Zetec, etc. If you can drive it before it is pulled and do a compression test you should be able to get a good idea of it condition. You want to see good oil pressure at hot idle.
In general the big problems with these engines are water leakage, particularly the waterbox (head) gasket and the rod bolts. Both of these problems can be fixed when the engine is rebuilt so a rebuilt can be better than an untouched stock engine. There are a lot of plastic part in the cooling system that get brittle with age as well and thus are probably due for replacement at this time. Several companies offer SS replacements for most all of these items. |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 8:47 am Post subject: Re: Fix or replace Vanagon engine? |
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lucianosanchez wrote: |
jimf909 wrote: |
Welcome! I think you'll learn a lot here and enjoy doing it.
What should you do?
1 - diagnose the problem (much more info is needed)
2 - assess your budget ($2K, $20K)
3 - identify affordable solutions
4 - choose and proceed
Others will surely chime in with details.
As for suggestions, I'm ready to be the one to say that all failed wbx motors should be replaced with conversions. The wbx motors should be passed on to the true believers to keep the fleet running as antiques and curiosities. The rest of us can use these rigs as updated, modern era cars.
Start digging in and have fun! |
Thank you jimf909, glad to be here.
As far as diagnosing the problem, what is recommended for this?
Removing the engine and taking it apart or leaving it on the van and having someone else take a look at it (maybe posting a video here).
I would love a conversion but like I said I live in California and the rules here appear to be strict. I was specially interested in the ztec conversion.
Thanks for the reply |
if possible run an oil pressure test and leak down test. I say if possible as the motor must be running and warmed up for these tests. if you lost coolant ylu should not run the van. if the leak is a hose or something easy to replace, then fix the leak and then run the tests.
another question is how many iles on the motor. if she has 150k or more miles, then a full rebuild is prudent to do in my opinion, even if you dont do the tests, assuming you want long term relability, it is for camping, who wants a failure in the middle of a ,ong distance vacation???
your motor can be rebuilt as the most economical option probably. there are other places much more economical than gowesty. you could find a compentant builder (Jansen Enterprises in Belmont CA for instance (although he often has a long back order, he is busy) you can do it yourself, maybe job out some of the machine work and measuremnt items if that is not in your skill set. AMC heads are highly recommended, but you need to replace thier cheap valves with better ones. geta new cam (elgin cams makes a nice smoggable performance cam) you could for a slight increase order larger pistons and have your cylinders over bored for a 2.2 liter displacement upgrade (works fine with stock injection and passes smog fine)
you will want to replace the failure prone plastic coolant tower and thermostat housing with new (plastic or the forever metal replacements$$$$) you ay wish to send the injectors out to be cleaned and flow tested (whitch hunter does this as do others)
you ,may wish to add an oil pressure gage, so plumb that while your at it. consider is you need new exhaust also, or get it b,asted and repaint it for looks and longer llif.
then again maybe you have a low mile motor with simply a sticky lifter making noise and a leaky water hose, easy fix. I hope it is the later.
how many miles on this dream machine????
good luck! _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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lucianosanchez Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2016 Posts: 212 Location: Ventura County
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 9:21 am Post subject: Re: Fix or replace Vanagon engine? |
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nacradriver wrote: |
McCullen Motors in Oxnard... would be a good place to start....
http://mccullenmotors.com/
Swedish Performance in Camarillo
Both know the Vanagon inside and out
I would also recommend Gary Betz.... but I think he retired and his step son is running the business now... |
You're in Ventura! How cool. I will check those shops out. Thanks nacradriver _________________ 1983.5 Aussan Brown Westfalia | 2016 to 2020
1983.5 Beige Westfalia | 2019 to Current |
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lucianosanchez Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2016 Posts: 212 Location: Ventura County
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Fix or replace Vanagon engine? |
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djkeev wrote: |
Have you refilled the cooling system?
If so, are there any obvious leaks?
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I forgot to answer Dave's question above. I have not refilled the cooling system. After the van overheated there was a lot of coolant spilling. There was some on the tow truck as well when it got home. _________________ 1983.5 Aussan Brown Westfalia | 2016 to 2020
1983.5 Beige Westfalia | 2019 to Current |
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