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BlueNorthWesty
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2014
Posts: 348
Location: Calgary
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 Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 12:28 pm Post subject: Big Brake Kits for Early Model Vanagons |
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I'm planning the big brake upgrade. I've done a cost summary below (in US$):
Option 1:
Calipers: pull them off an Audi 5000 at the wrecker $50 / pair
Rotors: Rockauto has them $40 /pair
Premium Brake pads: also on Rockauto $55 / set
Spindles: Since I have an '84 $300 / pair used
Hub Kit (includes bearings) from GoWesty $300
Total $745
Option 2:
eVWParts.com full kit including
brakes, spindles and hubs $1049.
Total $1049
Option 3:
GoWesty Big Brake Kit $550
Spindles: Since I have an '84 $300 / pair used
Hub Kit (includes bearings) from GoWesty $300
Total $1150
Option 4:
Small Car (brakes & hubs) $1049
Spindles: Since I have an '84 $300 / pair used
Total $1349
Has anyone else done a similar price comparison? Is the cheapest option doable or did I miss something? Are there even cheaper options?
To avoid compatibility problems or getting bad used spindles it might be better to go with eVWparts.com. Has anyone bought their kit?
_________________
1984 Medium Blue Vanagon Westfalia 2WD w/ rebuilt Auto, Peloquin differential, 3.27 R&P gears, 2002 Subaru 2.5L engine, Girling G60 front brake upgrade, PS, power mirrors
Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=610481&highlight= |
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Christopher Schimke
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Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5390
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brake Kits for Early Model Vanagons |
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Looks like the evwpart.com kit is using the Eurospec brake kit. If that is the case, the other three options on your list will all perform better.
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"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10371
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brake Kits for Early Model Vanagons |
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Thanks for posting those summaries. At very least, I plan to upgrade
to the later style Vanagon brakes.
Would machining the '84 spindles be an option?
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8...es#8080783
the poster notes costs being higher to machine the older style spindles
but then one could keep their hub, rotor, bearings?
And, I do have to wonder if machining the early spindles makes them prone
to weakness where the caliper mounts. IIRC, there's another thread here
on machining the spindles showing a visual comparison between later style
spindles and machined earlier style.
Neil.
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1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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BlueNorthWesty
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2014
Posts: 348
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brake Kits for Early Model Vanagons |
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| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
| Looks like the evwpart.com kit is using the Eurospec brake kit. If that is the case, the other three options on your list will all perform better. |
Really? What is wrong with Eurospec?
_________________
1984 Medium Blue Vanagon Westfalia 2WD w/ rebuilt Auto, Peloquin differential, 3.27 R&P gears, 2002 Subaru 2.5L engine, Girling G60 front brake upgrade, PS, power mirrors
Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=610481&highlight= |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5390
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brake Kits for Early Model Vanagons |
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| BlueNorthWesty wrote: |
| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
| Looks like the evwpart.com kit is using the Eurospec brake kit. If that is the case, the other three options on your list will all perform better. |
Really? What is wrong with Eurospec? |
The calipers have pistons in them that are smaller than the late model Vanagon calipers (meaning you are not getting the optimum amount of pressure at the piston/brake pad for a given amount of pedal force compared to calipers with correctly sized pistons), the guide pins for the calipers are not hardened and will wear prematurely (can be replaced with factory pins though), the dimensions of the custom caliper carrier cause some fitment issues on some applications (random) and the caliper carriers/guide pins are weak and cause a lot of flex which causes a soft pedal feel and poor braking performance, especially compared to the other three options on your list (there is a stiffening kit on the market that stiffens the guide pin area and helps with this).
Many, many people have experienced poor performance from the Eurospec kit over the years. You can resolve all of the issues mentioned except the caliper piston size.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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BlueNorthWesty
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2014
Posts: 348
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 3:52 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brake Kits for Early Model Vanagons |
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| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
Many, many people have experienced poor performance from the Eurospec kit over the years. You can resolve all of the issues mentioned except the caliper piston size. |
Thanks for the info. Their package looks good because they include the spindles but I think I'd rather take my chances an assemble my own package with parts that have a better track record.
BTW I pulled calipers off an Audi 5000 but they are not Girlings. They are single piston like most of the replacement callipers available for that car. They're big pistons though. For what I paid I could also replace them and still be ahead.
_________________
1984 Medium Blue Vanagon Westfalia 2WD w/ rebuilt Auto, Peloquin differential, 3.27 R&P gears, 2002 Subaru 2.5L engine, Girling G60 front brake upgrade, PS, power mirrors
Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=610481&highlight= |
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nacradriver
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Joined: January 15, 2009
Posts: 760
Location: Ventura, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brake Kits for Early Model Vanagons |
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If I may recommend.... get some of the steel braided brake hoses for all four wheels, change out the fluid, and the vacuum check valve.... if you have power brakes.
I too was lusting after a big brake kit; and I may do it with my next brake job, but having done this.... I am pretty happy with improved stopping power... Even with the Subi conversion.
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Güdrun -1989 Westfalia - 2013 - 2018
Petra - 1985 Vanagon - 1985 to 1991
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BlueNorthWesty
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2014
Posts: 348
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brake Kits for Early Model Vanagons |
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| nacradriver wrote: |
| If I may recommend.... get some of the steel braided brake hoses for all four wheels, change out the fluid, and the vacuum check valve.... if you have power brakes. |
Got them! I bought them last year when I was ordering everything I thought I would ever need for the van. I have ones for the rear as well so that will all get done with the big brake install, the bushing replacement and the upgrade to GoWesty progressive springs.
No power steering (yet) but I may do that next year.
_________________
1984 Medium Blue Vanagon Westfalia 2WD w/ rebuilt Auto, Peloquin differential, 3.27 R&P gears, 2002 Subaru 2.5L engine, Girling G60 front brake upgrade, PS, power mirrors
Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=610481&highlight= |
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levi
Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2005
Posts: 5522
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brake Kits for Early Model Vanagons |
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As far as I understand, machining of the early spindles only allows you to use those early spindles with the big brake kits, You still need rotors, cut down hubs, brackets etc.
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hdenter
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Joined: October 14, 2008
Posts: 2753
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brake Kits for Early Model Vanagons |
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How big do you need them?.... I went a different route on my '84 that I have been very satisfied with. I went with the BMW 7 series caliper and Benz 300SD rotor. The rotor is about the same size, but is vented. The BMW caliper has larger pads. The braking is noticeably better and no more heat warping of the rotors. The details are available if you do a search for threads with the key words. Basically the stock rotor is cut down into a hub and then the bearing housing is turned down so that the Benz rotor can slide over it and up to the back side of the rotor. Then, using the lug bolts to locate the rotor on the hub, 5 holes are transferred from the rotor to the hub and drill and tapped to mount the rotor to the back side of the hub. Next step is to take the BMer caliper and open up the mounting holes to the Larger VW size. There are more details, but that is the gist of it. Nice part is that most stock steel wheels will bolt up. One set grazed slightly and I used a thin shim for those wheels. Not sure how it the stock aloy wheels fit over them. I think I spent $200 for reman calipers and rotors from Rock Auto and borrowed my friends lathe for the machine work. Just an option if you could be happy with a modest improvement in braking.
Hans
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'79 triple white convertible bug
'84 sunroof vanagon
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BlueNorthWesty
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Joined: October 24, 2014
Posts: 348
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brake Kits for Early Model Vanagons |
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| hdenter wrote: |
How big do you need them?.... I went a different route on my '84 that I have been very satisfied with. I went with the BMW 7 series caliper and Benz 300SD rotor. The rotor is about the same size, but is vented. The BMW caliper has larger pads. The braking is noticeably better and no more heat warping of the rotors. The details are available if you do a search for threads with the key words. Basically the stock rotor is cut down into a hub and then the bearing housing is turned down so that the Benz rotor can slide over it and up to the back side of the rotor. Then, using the lug bolts to locate the rotor on the hub, 5 holes are transferred from the rotor to the hub and drill and tapped to mount the rotor to the back side of the hub. Next step is to take the BMer caliper and open up the mounting holes to the Larger VW size. There are more details, but that is the gist of it. Nice part is that most stock steel wheels will bolt up. One set grazed slightly and I used a thin shim for those wheels. Not sure how it the stock aloy wheels fit over them. I think I spent $200 for reman calipers and rotors from Rock Auto and borrowed my friends lathe for the machine work. Just an option if you could be happy with a modest improvement in braking.
Hans |
I like this! Were you able to use the stock '84 spindles?
_________________
1984 Medium Blue Vanagon Westfalia 2WD w/ rebuilt Auto, Peloquin differential, 3.27 R&P gears, 2002 Subaru 2.5L engine, Girling G60 front brake upgrade, PS, power mirrors
Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=610481&highlight= |
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hdenter
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2008
Posts: 2753
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 9:20 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brake Kits for Early Model Vanagons |
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Yup! It works with the early spindle. That's why I tried it, I couldn't find late manual steering spindles and I didn't want to use power steering spindles. Do a search with words BMW, Mercedes 300SD rotor. You'll find the thread with the info and more details.
Hans
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'79 triple white convertible bug
'84 sunroof vanagon
'85 weekender |
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Fracas
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Joined: October 01, 2015
Posts: 55
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brake Kits for Early Model Vanagons |
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| Has anyone thought of 2 piece rotors? |
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wesitarz
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Joined: August 20, 2012
Posts: 1490
Location: Victoria,B.C.Canada
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 9:04 am Post subject: Re: Big Brake Kits for Early Model Vanagons |
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Four piston G-60s seem to be the way to go. They have been done from scratch or Smallcars kit is dual piston G-60 I believe. I think you will need 16 inch rims though.
I have the G-57s/288mm VanCafe (or Eurospec) brake kit on 15 inch rims. I ground off a few mm from the calipers for better clearance. The caliper bushing stiffening kit took care of the caliper flex and spongy pedal. With a BMW E-30 booster I could feel the pads grab but still seemed a little soft in the pedal for my liking. Now have a BMW E-32 750il 25mm MC and 2 psi residual valves in both lines. The pedal feel is much better IMO. Next I am looking at the outer pushrod distance (4 3/8 inch),possible lengthening it to ?? to make a higher,slightly stiffer pedal.
My Smallcar rear discs with stock front discs performed OK.Even better just by putting in new PBR pads in front. Had new front rotors as well,then came across the new,unused VC kit and just had to have it, not doing any homework on it. |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17124
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Big Brake Kits for Early Model Vanagons |
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| Fracas wrote: |
| Has anyone thought of 2 piece rotors? |
This was about as far as I got using a two piece setup. I am looking at doing a syncro conversion now, so the 2 piece rotor project stalled. The discs are used ones off of my racecar.
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tristessa
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Posts: 3992
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Big Brake Kits for Early Model Vanagons |
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| hdenter wrote: |
| Yup! It works with the early spindle. That's why I tried it, I couldn't find late manual steering spindles and I didn't want to use power steering spindles. |
FWIW, I'm using '77 MBZ 300D calipers with stock solid rotors on my '75 Bay, which uses the same caliper as early Vanagon. It wasn't quite a bolt up -- had to enlarge the mounting holes and shave 0.10" from the mounting ears to center on the rotor. Only a 2-piston design unlike the 7-series 4-piston but 60MM vs stock 54MM with larger pads.
I looked into the 4-piston calipers and vented rotor like you used, but the Bay rotor/hub system is different and I haven't found anything that would readily work... |
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hdenter
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Posts: 2753
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Big Brake Kits for Early Model Vanagons |
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For me, the most important factor was going to a vented rotor. My stock rotors where getting warped every 3-4 months from the heat of all the in town driving and heavy load of tools and materials I carry in my work van. I have a year and a half and 20k on this set up and they are just starting to shimmy a little bit. I couldn't be happier.
Hans
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'84 sunroof vanagon
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shagginwagon83
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Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 3796
Location: VA/TN
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:16 am Post subject: Re: Big Brake Kits for Early Model Vanagons |
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Its unfortunate that most big brake kits only work with the later model spindles. I guess I'll just keep an eye out for the later model uprights.
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"Jo Ann" - '83.5 Westfalia EJ22e w/Peloquin
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Gruppe B
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Joined: January 16, 2007
Posts: 1331
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:44 am Post subject: Re: Big Brake Kits for Early Model Vanagons |
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| There is the BMW 4 pot caliper upgrade that bolts on for the early Vanagons. Let me find the thread and I'll post it up. |
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Gruppe B
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Posts: 1331
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:44 am Post subject: Re: Big Brake Kits for Early Model Vanagons |
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There is the BMW 4 pot caliper upgrade that bolts on for the early Vanagons. Let me find the thread and I'll post it up.
Edit, here it is
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=381146 |
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