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Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

jayinduluth wrote:
Back at it again tonight.
I replaced the fuel line to the fuel rail.
I checked the AAR, it tested correct ohms and the freezer test worked.
I put the old original AFM back in and it seems to idle better. Still does not start on its own (I have to give it a little gas to get it started) but its always done that.
A buddy of mine came over and we did the propane vacuum test while van was running and couldn't find anything that made the idle change at all.

While under the van, I heard this noise coming from either the fuel filter or the fuel pump. Buddy confirmed from the pump. PO claims he put new pump in before I bought and he gave me an old one, so this pump supposedly has less than 25k on it. I did put the gowesty filter in last year so that replaced the square pre-pump filter. The pump makes a noise that sounds like bubbling?? Its not loud enough to hear it unless you are under the van and right next to it. So we reversed polarity and ran the pump for two cycles and put wires back correctly and still bubbly noise. Also, took off the gas cap while van was running, noise stayed the same.

The van seems to be idling fine and at some point I just have to get the balls up go drive it, but I'm hesitant cuz I live on a damn hill - but the old AFM has never allowed me not to get up the hill (sorry for double negative).

Any thoughts on anything?
Thanks!


Don't remember what you have done thus far, but pries the cover off the AFM and then with the engine running at idle, 2500rpm, and 4000 rpm move the wiper a bit in both directions to see what effect that has on how the engine runs. If a smallish movement makes the engine speed up or slow down much then the AFM is likely out of adjustment.

You can also have someone else drive while you lean over the engine from the back seat and move the wiper around a bit. Engine cover off of course. DON'T GET BODY PARTS OR CLOTHING NEAR THE BELTS.
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t3 kopf
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

There is a procedure in the Bentley for jumping the fuel pump relay and measuring the amount of fuel delivered by the pump in a certain amount of time. That is your next step.
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jayinduluth
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

Back at it again tonight.
I replaced the fuel line to the fuel rail.
I checked the AAR, it tested correct ohms and the freezer test worked.
I put the old original AFM back in and it seems to idle better. Still does not start on its own (I have to give it a little gas to get it started) but its always done that.
A buddy of mine came over and we did the propane vacuum test while van was running and couldn't find anything that made the idle change at all.

While under the van, I heard this noise coming from either the fuel filter or the fuel pump. Buddy confirmed from the pump. PO claims he put new pump in before I bought and he gave me an old one, so this pump supposedly has less than 25k on it. I did put the gowesty filter in last year so that replaced the square pre-pump filter. The pump makes a noise that sounds like bubbling?? Its not loud enough to hear it unless you are under the van and right next to it. So we reversed polarity and ran the pump for two cycles and put wires back correctly and still bubbly noise. Also, took off the gas cap while van was running, noise stayed the same.

The van seems to be idling fine and at some point I just have to get the balls up go drive it, but I'm hesitant cuz I live on a damn hill - but the old AFM has never allowed me not to get up the hill (sorry for double negative).

Any thoughts on anything?
Thanks!
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jwallis
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

First - for anyone: if an injector is flowing low, is it common to get engine knock, since you'd be running super lean, which I think can lead to preignition, right?

----

This may be down the list, but do you know if your injectors are delivering a good amount of fuel? I've never done an injector test but I think it's not too tough.

Do you know for *certain* the age of your fuel lines? It is top 3 in every new van to do list you'll find out there. If you don't know, I recommend just buying the kit (along with oetiker pliers) from GW. Comes with injector seals (which are really cheap bought separate).

You can also just see what's in GW's kit and DIY. I am surprised that people trust the plastic hoses that come off the tank, so I just bought some hose and used it to replace those lines as well, then you don't have to worry about that plastic through-fitting that GW claims breaks off. Whatever I got was just a hair smaller than 7mm, and it was a big pain in the ass to get it on the FPR, so if you do this, find more 7mm or go slightly larger I'd suggest.

Also, did you check the "sleeves" between the plenum and the air intake runners? Just remembered that. I read a thread on here about a guy who had a van running like crap and he finally figured out that was it. It was on the bottom, don't remember how he found it.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Tom Powell
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

Do all of your fuel lines with the hose and clamp set from GoWesty or VanCafe. You are fortunate that you have not had a fire yet. BTDT


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Aloha
tp
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jayinduluth
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

Tonight when starting the van, it was unable to idle on its own like it was last night. I had to constantly rev it keep running, but I managed to at least get it out the driveway.

We did a vacuum test advance at the distributor and it measure 6psi and stops at 9 or 10.

While checking the timing, and reading through Tencentlife's posts, we made marks for 40 degrees clockwise. At 3000 rpm, it was right on. After that test, we noticed a gas smell from drivers side of engine bay and noticed that one of hoses to the fuel rail is leaking and the clamp is rusty.


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So that is the plan for tomorrow to get some fuel line and replace that. What do people recommend for clamps? I don't have the fancy german clamp tool, so it will to be something regular.
Also, fuel line - looks like 7mm or 5/16" will work with the 30R9 rating - is that correct? Is there an alternative in case I can't get that type? There is a VW dealer in Duluth, so I'm hoping as a last resort, they will have what i need.
Thanks.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

Merian wrote:
jayinduluth wrote:
Thanks for the reply.
The engine is a 91 2.1L.

The AAR is under the AFM. I will check hoses to it tonight as well.


AAR on a 2.1L motor?


It sounds like whoever did Jay's swap did the same thing I did, probably follow the http://www.oldvolkshome.com/19to21.htm instructions. The only thing I ended up swapping was the engine itself, air runners, and plenum. Since my cooling/FI systems were happy, I didn't want to fiddle with either of them.

I have an '84 and Jay started with an '85, and I know there's some weirdness with early/late '85s.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

jayinduluth wrote:
Thanks for the reply.
The engine is a 91 2.1L.

The AAR is under the AFM. I will check hoses to it tonight as well.



AAR on a 2.1L motor?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

Well if WT and I were to disagree on something, I'd probably put my money on him. I just made a video of how mine's hooked up assuming it's hooked up correctly because this part of the system seems to be working well.

It's 16:18 cst now, should finish uploading in about 15 min.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCGczys49YE
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Last edited by jwallis on Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jayinduluth
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:59 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply.
The engine is a 91 2.1L.

The AAR is under the AFM. I will check hoses to it tonight as well.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

jayinduluth wrote:
Finally got some time to continue testing.
Van would start and idle very low (300-400), lights would never go out but die when I applied throttle. The van never did this with the original AFM.

Fuel rail pressure test measures ~32 when pressurized, ~36 while pump is active. Fuel pump relay has been replaced.
Plug wires tested at .64 ohms
Plugs looked ok, but didn't have a gap tester.
There is 12v at alternator, hall connector plug, and 1 & 15 on ignition coil with idle stabilizer plugs looped.
I tested the new AFM and old AFM per bentley and both spec'd out ok.

Then I put the my original AFM. When I turned it over, I applied some gas and it started and I was able to actually hit the throttle and it did not die. It idled at 900 pretty good and I was able to continue to hit throttle without it dying. But the only way it would start was if I applied some gas while cranking. I have always had to do this since I have had the van.

I plan on checking the timing tomorrow.
Any one have additional thoughts on the AFM's? Or why I have to apply gas for my van to start?
Thanks!


I am going to say it again that something is not normal about the routing of the hoses on your engine. Those hoses that are connected together and parallel the coolant cross over hose aren't normal and may somehow be connected up to where the AAR is supposed to be connected. If the hoses are just plugged and not passing air around the throttle valve then you would have to give it throttle to get it to cold start.

Pull that odd contraption of hose off and tell use if you can suck air through it or not. Your AAR should look like this, it is not easily visible but you should be able to see the hoses going to it.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is another shot of a Vanagon 1.9 WBXer engine, notice that that strange hose you have is not there in this picture.

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jayinduluth
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

Finally got some time to continue testing.
Van would start and idle very low (300-400), lights would never go out but die when I applied throttle. The van never did this with the original AFM.

Fuel rail pressure test measures ~32 when pressurized, ~36 while pump is active. Fuel pump relay has been replaced.
Plug wires tested at .64 ohms
Plugs looked ok, but didn't have a gap tester.
There is 12v at alternator, hall connector plug, and 1 & 15 on ignition coil with idle stabilizer plugs looped.
I tested the new AFM and old AFM per bentley and both spec'd out ok.

Then I put the my original AFM. When I turned it over, I applied some gas and it started and I was able to actually hit the throttle and it did not die. It idled at 900 pretty good and I was able to continue to hit throttle without it dying. But the only way it would start was if I applied some gas while cranking. I have always had to do this since I have had the van.

I plan on checking the timing tomorrow.
Any one have additional thoughts on the AFM's? Or why I have to apply gas for my van to start?
Thanks!
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 6:33 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

Thanks.
That image came from this -

http://www.vanagonauts.com/files/Digijet_FI.pdf

but its also in the bentley.
I will look at the hoses more closely tonight.
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 11:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

~edit~
dammit I was wrong, the first time I posted this i kept saying idle control valve when I meant auxiliary air regulator. forgot there are 2 different parts (that seem to have a similar function) on digijet/digifant
~edit~


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Wildthings wrote:
jayinduluth wrote:
I assume the pinching of the hose an auxiliary air regulator is only for the 1.9? I'm home now and I'm not seeing that regulator, that hose goes to a T underneath the the air filter, so it must be part of the 2.1.



Something looks odd with the hoses in the picture to me. Don't have a Digijet available to compare them with though.


As mentioned, the auxiliary air regulator is under the airbox on the 1.9.

Far be it for me to contradict Wildthings, but this looks right to me. That hose off the plenum, parallel to the coolant crossover goes to the aux air reg. I can barely see the lower hose to the breather tower but I think it's there.

Jay, that hose that goes to the top of the S boot also connects to that regulator. I recommend you pull the airbox off and check that hose and the others associated with that regulator. I just put my thumb on one end and sucked on the other end. When you put it back on, might as well use clamps. Don't tighten it too much on the plastic piece, it's probly old. Make sure the plastic piece that goes into the S boot seats nicely and not allowing air in. I thought the little lip on it would go into the S boot on mine but it didn't, but still seems to make a nice seal.
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Last edited by jwallis on Tue May 31, 2016 10:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 10:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

jayinduluth wrote:
good grief, I completely forgot that I did this on Sunday and my rpm did not change when I pinched the hose. However, if I'm recalling correctly (which we all know how well that is working..) the rpm didn't change after it warmed up either, but I'll test again when I get home.

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Where did this image come from? I did the first half (cold engine) of this test tonight and the RPMs did not drop. My van idles fairly well.

When I upgraded to a 2.1, I tested all these hoses and clamped them at both ends even though they never were before. I also replaced all the vacuum hoses, which van-cafe sells (by the foot) for very cheap. Took like 15 minutes.

Jay, you're really frustrated and while throwing parts at a problem sucks, if you're in it for the long haul (measured in decades), a lot of these parts are going to get replaced anyway. If you save your parts and later realize it had nothing to do with them and they're working fine, you can sell them here on theSamba.

That said, I'm not endorsing throwing parts at a problem, just saying that 1-we've all done it, 2-now you know the part's age. I have a spreadsheet with every part I've replaced and the date. I know the age of everything from my shocks to my fuel lines. Seems like every part breaks eventually. This was intended to be a pep talk.
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 5:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

Merian wrote:
opening time for the injectors measured in milliseconds, right??


Yes. I posted above after consuming my nightcap. Embarassed
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

opening time for the injectors measured in milliseconds, right??
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 11:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

Great answer, specifically just by saying what it does. Thank you-
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 11:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

jwallis wrote:
Wildthings wrote:

I would suggest doing the tests on the AFM as shown in the Bentley and if you can find someone local with the knowledge have them check the settings on the AFM wiper and spring and set the idle CO.


First let me say I know there are several components that try to keep the idle smooth and at a reasonable rpm, so I assume other parts of the system may try to compensate when 1 part is acting strangely or erratically.

My question was if the idle CO is set incorrectly, is it correct to assume this will that cause bad/rough idle all the time or might it cause an issue such as idle with no throttle is fine, but applying some throttle bogs the engine down (feels like running very rich) until the engine recovers and then revs up normally?


The impact of the CO adjustment on speeds and loads above idle speed is very limited, especially if the "basic setting" (I cannot remember how many turns out this is), has been done. All the adjustment screw does is permit a small, minutely adjustable amount of air to bypass the AFM mass measuring flap - - period. The AFM, by contrast, provides load information that the ECU uses to look up the opening time for the injectors measured in microseconds. This lookup solution is then still subject to the fuel trim done by the ECU's Lambda circuit. So, it is easy to imagine the very limited impact of CO adjustment on the symptoms described by the OP.

The CO adjustment is, however, very important for proper emissions control, so that is a major reason to get it adjusted properly. It also has an impact on smoothing out idle. I still believe that the major reasons for rough idle and idle misses are vacuum leaks (especially at a worn throttle body) and injectors that are not flowing equally, which can be remedied by ultrasonic injector cleaning.
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 10:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:

I would suggest doing the tests on the AFM as shown in the Bentley and if you can find someone local with the knowledge have them check the settings on the AFM wiper and spring and set the idle CO.


First let me say I know there are several components that try to keep the idle smooth and at a reasonable rpm, so I assume other parts of the system may try to compensate when 1 part is acting strangely or erratically.

My question was if the idle CO is set incorrectly, is it correct to assume this will that cause bad/rough idle all the time or might it cause an issue such as idle with no throttle is fine, but applying some throttle bogs the engine down (feels like running very rich) until the engine recovers and then revs up normally?
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