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Merian
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014
Posts: 5212
Location: Orygun
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 Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: CV Boot Clamp? |
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I like the asphalt idea - I've messed with CVs for several decades and that never occurred to me.
of course, all vehicles (after the early 1960s) use CVs and none of those many millions of vehicles have the problems that VW managed to create for us...
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bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: CV Boot Clamp? |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| bluebus86 wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| bluebus86 wrote: |
if the guy moves the axle back and forth as he has, adding more grease wont change how he can move it. it will move the same amount with or without extra grease. any drag imparted by additional grease is negligable.
it is normal for the axle to be able to move back and forth.. |
The grease doesn't have to impart a lot of dampening just enough. By the time you add in the cross sectional area of the inner hub and the balls you are talking about a fair amount of area which will require that a fair amount of grease be displaced for the axle to hit the hub. If adding extra grease doesn't do the job then so be it, but it is the cheapest and easiest thing to try first besides sliding the boots down the axle a bit. |
i can displace ten times a fair amount of grease with little effort. the grease is made to flow. it will flow even more so when heated to operating temps.
Golly grease even is sold in squeeze tubes, would not be sold that way if it was difficult to displace.
now if you want to really hold the shaft in place, fill the boot with thick asphalt, and then cool it, of course the lack of a slippery grease might ot lube things very well! |
The axial force that is being applied to the axle is very transient, it is going to come and go three (or maybe six) times for every revolution of the axle, this is a dynamic system and not a static one. The grease only has to apply a very momentary damping force not some kind of continuous force. It doesn't have to stop the axle from moving just slow it up a bit. Reduce the dynamic axial movement by a 1/8" (or even 1/16 or 1/32") and you have probably eliminated the knock. |
of course it is not a static system, it is moving, if it was static it would not move, duh!!!!
I dont use excessive grease and mine makes no funky noises.
perhaps something else is wrong other than lack of being over filled with grease.
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50351
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: CV Boot Clamp? |
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| bluebus86 wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| bluebus86 wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| bluebus86 wrote: |
if the guy moves the axle back and forth as he has, adding more grease wont change how he can move it. it will move the same amount with or without extra grease. any drag imparted by additional grease is negligable.
it is normal for the axle to be able to move back and forth.. |
The grease doesn't have to impart a lot of dampening just enough. By the time you add in the cross sectional area of the inner hub and the balls you are talking about a fair amount of area which will require that a fair amount of grease be displaced for the axle to hit the hub. If adding extra grease doesn't do the job then so be it, but it is the cheapest and easiest thing to try first besides sliding the boots down the axle a bit. |
i can displace ten times a fair amount of grease with little effort. the grease is made to flow. it will flow even more so when heated to operating temps.
Golly grease even is sold in squeeze tubes, would not be sold that way if it was difficult to displace.
now if you want to really hold the shaft in place, fill the boot with thick asphalt, and then cool it, of course the lack of a slippery grease might ot lube things very well! |
The axial force that is being applied to the axle is very transient, it is going to come and go three (or maybe six) times for every revolution of the axle, this is a dynamic system and not a static one. The grease only has to apply a very momentary damping force not some kind of continuous force. It doesn't have to stop the axle from moving just slow it up a bit. Reduce the dynamic axial movement by a 1/8" (or even 1/16 or 1/32") and you have probably eliminated the knock. |
of course it is not a static system, it is moving, if it was static it would not move, duh!!!!
I dont use excessive grease and mine makes no funky noises.
perhaps something else is wrong other than lack of being over filled with grease. |
Yes there is going to be something else wrong that causes the axle to oscillate in and out. The balls may be bouncing in and out of divets, hard to know without pulling the subject axle down. That does mean that being packed with grease won't dampen the oscillation. It is an easy and cheap thing to try before tearing pulling the axle and disassembling the joints. |
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oceanair
Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2013
Posts: 720
Location: Victoria, BC
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:00 pm Post subject: Re: CV Boot Clamp? |
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Well it's definitely not overfilled. In fact, I think it's almost certainly original. I'll add some from the van cafe kit, with the long needle and massage it into the CV joint and see what happens there. It's not a clicking sound, it is for sure the axle moving laterally. I have no claps on the boot. I think that is factory as well. I have read that the clamp keeps the axle more centered, but I fear ripping the boots over time. They are in excellent shape and are original as well.
However the occasional banging only happens when away from the home area!
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50351
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:13 pm Post subject: Re: CV Boot Clamp? |
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| If you move the small end of each boot about 3/4" in the outboard direction the axle will move maybe a half inch to the inboard direction. If the boots are even in moderately decent shape then this will not hurt them at all. If the small ends do not want to stay in their "new" location then would be the time to use a zip tie or other clamp on them. There is an off chance depending on the wear pattern of the joint that this could make the joints noisier. If this happens then just put the small ends back where they were. |
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Merian
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014
Posts: 5212
Location: Orygun
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:43 am Post subject: Re: CV Boot Clamp? |
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can we add the asphalt idea to the compendium that includes peanut oil, bon ami, and (I forget the other half dozen items)??
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bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: CV Boot Clamp? |
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| Merian wrote: |
| can we add the asphalt idea to the compendium that includes peanut oil, bon ami, and (I forget the other half dozen items)?? |
Organic asphalt only please, and make sure it is tuna safe asphalt too.
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9613
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 11:07 am Post subject: Re: CV Boot Clamp? |
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Stiff boots such as Rockford need clamps or water run down the axle and into the boot.
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 11:43 am Post subject: Re: CV Boot Clamp? |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| Stiff boots such as Rockford need clamps or water run down the axle and into the boot. |
Yes, clamps are definitely required with the Rockford boots. Running without clamps can also allow the boot to cock a bit allowing the inner valley of the smallest portion of the boot to rub on the axle which will cause it to fail prematurely.
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Stevied84westy
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2014
Posts: 18
Location: Stagecoach, America
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:40 am Post subject: Re: CV Boot Clamp? |
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Hello fellow Sambanistas:
Thought since I’m doing this boot job, yet again, to share my discoveries on the subject of clamps vs. no clamps. My VW Guru of 20+ years advised me not to clamp the last time I did this and he’s been around the proverbial Vanagon block. This is all a result of installing a Mr. Gas rebuilt 091/1 transaxle. The following series of photos are pretty telling after a mere 1,754 miles of what happened to my non-clamped boots.
So, this round I will definitely use the clamps and install with the boots at their “neutral” position of 4.5” in length on the axle with the CV joint positioned to sit on output flange.
Let's hope this nets better longevity.
Any thoughts are much appreciated.
-Steve |
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17153
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:06 am Post subject: Re: CV Boot Clamp? |
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What brand boots are those?
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4Gears4Tires
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018
Posts: 3048
Location: MD
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:07 am Post subject: Re: CV Boot Clamp? |
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If anything, clamps will stress the boots more, not less. The advantage of clamps is that your grease containment will be secure and uncontaminated. I struggle to understand the phenomenon of unclamped boots in the vw world.
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17153
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:15 am Post subject: Re: CV Boot Clamp? |
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| 4Gears4Tires wrote: |
| If anything, clamps will stress the boots more, not less. The advantage of clamps is that your grease containment will be secure and uncontaminated. I struggle to understand the phenomenon of unclamped boots in the vw world. |
Back in the day, when you could buy OE Autobahn boots at the dealer, you just about had to stand on your head to get the small end to slide on the shaft to install it. You had to douse it and the shaft in silicone lube to get them on. The small ends stayed where you set them. It also allowed for expansion and contraction of the boot bellows. It was no uncommon to see a boot that had puffed up or sucked in on itself.
So, I am also from that old school, but no more. These new lobro boots failed sitting in the parking lot for a year. Each one failed along the seam. I assume, a clamp might have delayed that failure.
I have been running clamps since.
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4Gears4Tires
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018
Posts: 3048
Location: MD
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:22 am Post subject: Re: CV Boot Clamp? |
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That makes sense if they used to be basically press fit. Thanks.
You're thinking the clamps will hold it together so the seam won't split? I doubt it. I think it'll just split behind the clamp. As you said, they sat in a parking lot. It's not like they subjected to any arduous stresses. I think it's a manufacturing failure to adhere the 2 sides properly. They're not doing their vulcanizing properly or whatever the procedure is. Friction welding. 
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17153
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:36 am Post subject: Re: CV Boot Clamp? |
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270,000 miles later the boots on my Acura are still intact. Not sure how the aftermarket Japanese Auto boots hold up compared to the Lobro's, but it is certainly a solvable problem.
What's disappointing is the reports of failure on the Rockford boots. I understood those to be the cat's meow.
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Stevied84westy
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2014
Posts: 18
Location: Stagecoach, America
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:26 am Post subject: Re: CV Boot Clamp? |
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Hi Mark, all.
Those are the Rockfords. I'm thinking that the pleats(bellows) un-clamped creeped inwards towards the CV. My theory now is that by maintaining an equal separation of the pleats & boots @ 4.5" the flexing will be be distributed more evenly over each pleat.
Damn shame too, as I was hoping to start breaking in the rebuilt transaxle. Now I'll have to wait for another shipment of boots!
Thanks for the input, as always great to have such a resource!
Best-Steve |
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charleslabri
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2019
Posts: 615
Location: Nashville/Yosemite
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: CV Boot Clamp? |
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| thanks for this thread... about to do this job and i find this timely |
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