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Type 4 2.0L Engine Rebuild
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kooper271
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:32 pm    Post subject: Type 4 2.0L Engine Rebuild Reply with quote

Hi all,

Before I get my 77 back together, I'm going to rebuild the engine. It sat for 15 years and there is 140k miles on the vehicle (unknown how many on the engine), as well as signs that the engine was overheated.


I've never rebuilt an engine before, but I've been doing research. I also have the book How to Rebuild Your Volkswagen air-Cooled Engine (All models, 1961 and up). Based on my research, here is a list of what I plan to do replace.

New
Main Bearings
Rod Bearings
Cam Bearings
Pistons/cylinders
Camshaft
Lifters
Gasket set with front and rear main seals


Reconditioned
Case - line bored, decked
Rods
Crank
Flywheel


I will also have Headflow Masters do a valve job on both heads - new valve guides, valve springs, and valves.


Anything I'm missing or that I should consider?
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Bleyseng
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 2.0L Engine Rebuild Reply with quote

New reworked AMC heads and toss the old ones........
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kooper271
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 2.0L Engine Rebuild Reply with quote

Bleyseng wrote:
New reworked AMC heads and toss the old ones........


Any idea what those might cost?
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Oil Phil-M
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 2.0L Engine Rebuild Reply with quote

Usually T4 cases do not require align bore but get it checked.
Here are a few items that my brain can remember from my rebuild:
- oil passages threaded inserts in place of the original pressed in ones
- oil pump
- oil cooler cleaning/replacing
- oil cooler bypass valve and cleaned up seat
- camshaft gear
- valve train upgrade with solid rocker shaft spacers, swivel foot adjusters, oversized rocker studs and possibly base spacers
- pushrods to be cut to proper length and possibly new push rod tubes
- a bunch of different sealants for various sealing tasks
- thermostat for the air flaps
- bag of new cooling tin screws
- breakin oil

Then there is a host of tools you will require or make and dont forget a good scale to weigh the parts for balancing. Look into dynamic balancing also.
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williamM
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 2.0L Engine Rebuild Reply with quote

wouldn't blindly line bore a T4 as that block was quite stout.

The big issue will be the oil pump- that thing is rare and the new ones that are being suggested tend to have dimension problems. Master fabricator john and I are trying to work out a fix with "O" rings and blocker beads but been too hot lately to play.

Then the "hydraulic" vs "solid " lifter has to be decided. I've just bought 2 "road cams" and solid lifters for the next 2 - yet to be started on engines, and will report on their performance when run.

So spend about 3 days reading every T4 post here and take notes of part numbers and procedures - you will have a wonderful engine you can casually talke about round the camp fire.


and what he said (Oily phill)
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 2.0L Engine Rebuild Reply with quote

kooper271 wrote:
Bleyseng wrote:
New reworked AMC heads and toss the old ones........


Any idea what those might cost?


Get your new heads done by Len Hoffman. It ain't cheap but it's worth every dime.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 2.0L Engine Rebuild Reply with quote

pair of reconditioned AMC just hit market here on Samba- $550 delivered.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 2.0L Engine Rebuild Reply with quote

kooper271 wrote:
Bleyseng wrote:
New reworked AMC heads and toss the old ones........


Any idea what those might cost?


About $1,450 from Hoffman Automotive Machine, aka H.A.M., aka Len Hoffman. You want his "Blueprint Specials."
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 2.0L Engine Rebuild Reply with quote

Oil Phil-M wrote:
Usually T4 cases do not require align bore but get it checked.
Here are a few items that my brain can remember from my rebuild:
- oil passages threaded inserts in place of the original pressed in ones
- oil pump
- oil cooler cleaning/replacing
- oil cooler bypass valve and cleaned up seat
- camshaft gear
- valve train upgrade with solid rocker shaft spacers, swivel foot adjusters, oversized rocker studs and possibly base spacers
- pushrods to be cut to proper length and possibly new push rod tubes
- a bunch of different sealants for various sealing tasks
- thermostat for the air flaps
- bag of new cooling tin screws
- breakin oil

Then there is a host of tools you will require or make and dont forget a good scale to weigh the parts for balancing. Look into dynamic balancing also.


Thanks for this! That is a lot of information to digest. I may have a machine shop balance everything for me.

williamM wrote:
pair of reconditioned AMC just hit market here on Samba- $550 delivered.


Thanks for pointing that out, and thanks for the information in the previous post!


Busstom wrote:
kooper271 wrote:
Bleyseng wrote:
New reworked AMC heads and toss the old ones........


Any idea what those might cost?


About $1,450 from Hoffman Automotive Machine, aka H.A.M., aka Len Hoffman. You want his "Blueprint Specials."



I sent them an email a week ago. Maybe he didn't receive it, but I never got a reply back.

Thanks!
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 2.0L Engine Rebuild Reply with quote

williamM wrote:
pair of reconditioned AMC just hit market here on Samba- $550 delivered.

That seems awful cheap, sure they aren't just new AMC heads with all the crappy valves, springs and seats included just like they come out of the box?
You pay more for Len because they are dismantled down to the castings and rebuilt with better parts. Well worth it if you ever plan on using the bus for epic road trips, the stock AMC's are fine for a Sunday ice cream tripper.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 2.0L Engine Rebuild Reply with quote

kooper271 wrote:



I sent them an email a week ago. Maybe he didn't receive it, but I never got a reply back.

Thanks!


Call him… I spoke with him Friday and was super helpful. His current round of heads are spoken for, but will be doing another round next month.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 2.0L Engine Rebuild Reply with quote

set $4500 aside and a month of vacation or 90 days worth of nights, or leave it alone. You'll want new heads from Len unless this is a just around town bus. It is not that it is all that hard, just the time to run down parts for a 40 year old car, clean everything, put it together right etc will take a huge amount of time. In the 1970's and 1980's there were machine shop everywhere that did the work, and parts were plentiful. Today you can spend weeks trying to figure which flywheel seal to use and which sealants. When you damage a small item or it is too worn you may spend a week of phone calls trying to find the part. And the parts will be metric so when you ask about a certain nut it may cost you $1.25 each X 5 nuts minimum plus $10 postage which seem outrageous because you can buy 100 for 30 cents each which if you do the math you realize is $40 shipped for the 100 vs $16 for the 5.

Read the Bentley section on the engine several times before you make the final decision. Don't line bore it unless it is over 200,000 miles. Don't use a reground cam, and if the heads are anything but recent buy new ones from Len. Really. There is a reason restored late buses sell for $20K and up these days.

BTW - in honesty now so we know how to approach this - you said "I've never rebuilt an engine before," Can you tell us what kind of things you have rebuilt and what access to tools you have?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 2.0L Engine Rebuild Reply with quote

[quote="busdaddy"]
williamM wrote:
pair of reconditioned AMC just hit market here on Samba- $550 delivered.

That seems awful cheap, sure they aren't just new AMC heads


just the messenger Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

"Vintage german parts"
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:55 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 2.0L Engine Rebuild Reply with quote

Have your oil gallery plugs drilled and tapped when the engine is apart.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:33 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 2.0L Engine Rebuild Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
...

BTW - in honesty now so we know how to approach this - you said "I've never rebuilt an engine before," Can you tell us what kind of things you have rebuilt and what access to tools you have?



I've always worked on projects around the house (building a deck, plumbing, electrical, building computers, etc.), but I never had anyone to teach me about cars so I've spent the last 4 years learning everything I missed out on. Most difficult repair I've done thus far is replacing the crankshaft seal on my 2002 Jetta.

I'm also pretty good at reading, doing research, and then doing the job (thank you, engineering degree).

My biggest weakness would be the fact that I need to understand everything, from start to finish, before I start on a project.

I have quite a collection of tools, and the means to purchase anything that I don't have.


I hold your opinion in high esteem, so if you think it is something I should not attempt I would be glad to hear of any other suggestions. Regardless, I'm a bit headstrong and while any advice would be greatfully appreciated, I will probably attempt to rebuild it anyways. I don't have anything to lose.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:11 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 2.0L Engine Rebuild Reply with quote

kooper271 wrote:
My biggest weakness would be the fact that I need to understand everything, from start to finish, before I start on a project.


Quite the contrary, that is a tremendous strength.

kooper271 wrote:
I don't have anything to lose.


Except time and money.... Wink

Sounds like you'll do just fine if you take your time and source the best available parts. I hope to do the same thing down the road.
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kooper271
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:14 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 2.0L Engine Rebuild Reply with quote

THall wrote:
...

kooper271 wrote:
I don't have anything to lose.


Except time and money.... Wink

.....


Time and money when spent on knowledge and experience can never be wasted! Even if I fail I'll know more than I know today.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:04 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 2.0L Engine Rebuild Reply with quote

Quote:
... I've done thus far is replacing the crankshaft seal on my 2002 Jetta.


if that went well then you have enough of a desire to make it happen. The only concern I have when someone starts a project like this, is there is really no way anyone else can help them unless they are local. We can look at photos, give opinions, find parts, explain how something goes together, but that does not substitute for someone who has been thru it before. Part of what a good rebuild covers is having an eye to seeing the things that are worn, and understanding why that happened to perhaps prevent it again. If a part wears out in 100,000 miles, then that is normal. If a part has 300,000 miles of wear in 80,000 miles then one needs to know the what caused it. Let me give you an example. Each engine type is unique as to its issues. In the days of racing I saw many damaged crankshafts from overheating. 10,000 RPM and one race too many on an engine will do that sort of thing. When we bought this 1977 the PO said there was a knock in it so she stopped running it. The engine spun with a starter and by hand. When it came apart one of the rod journals had about 1//2 inch gone from wear and the metal filled the oil hole so she still had oil pressure. The knock was the piston starting to slap the head. A very blued crankshaft and rod that were junk. I had some trouble getting one of the six big bolts out that held the case halved together. It hung and did not want to slide out by hand so I had to whack it with a lead hammer and brass punch to get it out. Nothing serious. Even with thousands of engines under my belt I did not think twice about it. We had a second engine for the 1977 and those 6 bolts came out easy compared to the first engine. Weird huh? When we were talking with Todd at RIMCO he said two things that were new to me - (1) At least both cases don't have type IV syndrome (2) when a rod / crank blues on a VW engine it usually warps the case so the main saddles don't align anymore (which = scrap case).

Suddenly I realized why that bolt was hard to get out. It was pinched by the warped main saddle. And, I looked up Type IV syndrome. It is caused by one specific nut being tightened to more than the factory spec, 9 ft lbs which breaks the case internally. Hand tightening a nut is usually more than 9 ft lbs so that might have bitten me if I was not aware of it.

You will probably need to discuss each step you are going to take before you do it. Literally you will want to say, "Tonight I plan to do this XYZ" and then get some coaching before you do it. Everything. These engines are incredibly forgiving but incredibly different than others. They were designed by engineers who truly tried to make something as light and as rugged as they could. And these buses were not designed with intentions to last more than about 125,000 miles but they were so well designed they do. They go on and on and on. But do set $4500 aside. If you can do that then you'll have some left over. If you can't then you could end up with a half assembled engine. Also - if you do it, do it right. That assures a 95% chance it will be right. Keep in mind there will be parts that do not meet the original specs even though they are sold as new. That is another reason to discuss eac step and take lots of photos.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 2.0L Engine Rebuild Reply with quote

Thank you for the advice, SGKent. I assume the 9 ft-lbs torque bolt you refer to is the oil strainer nut? This is all exciting and also worrying. I do have a great local shop, but they mostly deal with Type 1 engines. With a manual, time, money, and information I think this is something I can accomplish though.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:32 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 2.0L Engine Rebuild Reply with quote

kooper271 wrote:
SGKent wrote:
...

BTW - in honesty now so we know how to approach this - you said "I've never rebuilt an engine before," Can you tell us what kind of things you have rebuilt and what access to tools you have?



I've always worked on projects around the house (building a deck, plumbing, electrical, building computers, etc.), but I never had anyone to teach me about cars so I've spent the last 4 years learning everything I missed out on. Most difficult repair I've done thus far is replacing the crankshaft seal on my 2002 Jetta.

I'm also pretty good at reading, doing research, and then doing the job (thank you, engineering degree).

My biggest weakness would be the fact that I need to understand everything, from start to finish, before I start on a project.

I have quite a collection of tools, and the means to purchase anything that I don't have.


I hold your opinion in high esteem, so if you think it is something I should not attempt I would be glad to hear of any other suggestions. Regardless, I'm a bit headstrong and while any advice would be greatfully appreciated, I will probably attempt to rebuild it anyways. I don't have anything to lose.


You should be fine then as you understand the process of How things are Built. You have a engineering degree, yay, hopefully now you understand men made these engines and they aren't too tough to build if you read and follow the manuals!!!! I have taught both my sons the art of building/repairing anything as it's a life skill these days.
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70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles
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