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1200 to 1600 SP (Am I doing this right?)
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starboy
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:15 am    Post subject: 1200 to 1600 SP (Am I doing this right?) Reply with quote

So after much deliberation, and the chance of coincidence I picked up a 1600 single port engine to swap into my 63' beetle. As being new to this process I know I need to short out a few things before being able to fit the 1600 SP in, along with a few questions...

Checklist as follows

    Grind out 'tabs' on the original trans. for the fitment of the 1600 flywheel. (Found a few video references that should be able to get me where I need to go)

    My running example of the 1600 I picked up doesn't have a clutch and after pulling the original 1200 out I see that these clutches are relatively different. IE: Looks like the 40 has 'springs?' on the backside of the clutch? I guess I'll need to order a new clutch for the 1600 SP, does the 1600 come with a 180mm or 200mm?

    The 40 which was in the car was converted to 12V already, so I shouldn't have to modify anything there? (IE: That 12V starter should work with the 1600?)



And I think that's it from what I could find, anything else I'm missing? Any reliability modifications I should do to the 1600 SP while I have it out?

Thanks for the help!

Progress pictures:

1200 with 'those springs on the back'
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*Picked up 1600
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Broken 1200, still need to open it up but thinking crank went
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Where it stands at the moment
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javelinadave
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:44 am    Post subject: Re: 1200 to 1600 SP (Am I doing this right?) Reply with quote

Following this. Iím one step (engine removal) behind you.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:47 am    Post subject: Re: 1200 to 1600 SP (Am I doing this right?) Reply with quote

Nice score Smile

It could just be the picture but it looks like the 1600 already has a 180mm flywheel. I'm going by the diameter of the clutch cutout, which looks smaller than what I would imagine a 200mm flywheel would have.

Can you count the flywheel teeth on the 1600 and check whether it has 109 teeth (180mm) or 130 teeth (200mm)? It could be some sort of hybrid flywheel but it has me wondering. If it is a 180mm flywheel you might not need to even clearance the bellhousing.

If the flywheel is a 180mm flywheel you'll of course want to order the 180mm clutch.

Be advised though that even if it is a 180mm flywheel you might get starter gear clash when attempting to run a 12 volt starter with 6volt (180mm) flywheel and be right back at the point of changing the flywheel back to the stock 200mm one, using the 200mm clutch, and also clearancing the bellhousing as you had started to do. To avoid all that, some folks with 12 volt cars still running 40hp engines with 180mm flywheels (me included) will use a 6 volt starter to avoid the starter motor/flywheel gear clash. As long as you don't crank it endlessly the 6 volt starter will last a good while on 12 volts. There are also hybrid 6 volt starters with 12 volt solenoids that are useful.

Sorry if I've provided too much, or confusing information!

Good luck and please keep us posted.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:59 am    Post subject: Re: 1200 to 1600 SP (Am I doing this right?) Reply with quote

You'll need a 200mm clutch kit WITH the center ring to fit with your 1963's throwout bearing arm. So look for one designated for 1967 to 1970 Beetle. Your pictured pressure plate is missing springs on two of the three arms, and without tht center ring would only go on 1971-on transmissions.

You might want to consider a 12 volt starter when you convert your VW to 12 volts if not already converted (I see a 12 volt alternator).

Also, it looks like some of the sled tins and rear small tins are missing.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:46 am    Post subject: Re: 1200 to 1600 SP (Am I doing this right?) Reply with quote

starboy wrote:
My running example of the 1600 I picked up doesn't have a clutch and after pulling the original 1200 out I see that these clutches are relatively different.

It's amazing that you can see that the two clutches are different while one engine doesn't have a clutch . Confused
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:03 am    Post subject: Re: 1200 to 1600 SP (Am I doing this right?) Reply with quote

Hard to tell for sure, but it seems to me that the 6v flywheel and starter were kept. It does not look like the bellhousing was clearanced for a larger flywheel and the 1200 looks to still have the 6v flywheel. The 6v starter will work on 12v just fine. It just spins a little faster.

I have a 1600 in my 63 as well using the factory trans. What I did and what I suggest as you already have all the parts to do it, is put the 6v flywheel on the 1600 and get a HD 180mm clutch and pressure plate. This way, you will not have to clearance the bellhousing and you can still retain your starter as well.

I run my car in autocross events and my clutch does not slip at all with the 1600 using a 180mm clutch.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:21 am    Post subject: Re: 1200 to 1600 SP (Am I doing this right?) Reply with quote

Counting the teeth in the pictures, both engines have 109 tooth flywheels, so you shouldn't need to do any bellhousing clearancing and you can keep your current starter if you weren't having any issues with it. The 1600's flywheel looks very much like a 180mm variant as noted, but a quick check of the size of the opening for the clutch disc will verify it that's the case or if it's 200mm.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:38 am    Post subject: Re: 1200 to 1600 SP (Am I doing this right?) Reply with quote

Wow, thanks everyone for the feedback and help here! Let me address accordingly.

I'm a little out of the loop since I bought this a few years back (for the 'wife'), I presumed it was just a modified 1200, that was converted over to 12v. (If anyone see's something that doesn't align to this feel free to chime in!)

For the noted flywheel teeth after I get the kiddos to sleep tonight I'll come down and report on the tooth count on both the 1200 and 1600. (If I don't have to clearance anything the better!)

As it relates to the clutch. Clearly the 1600 doesn't have a clutch, I was more or less speaking to what I saw on the internet in relation to 180mm/200 clutches in comparison to *attached one of the 1200.

I guess a follow-up question would be (and forgive my ignorance) I thought the 1600 was 12v already? If not should I change over the generator that I have from the 1200 to the 1600? (My goal here is just to get the engine in and the car running. If the generator swap isn't required I can do that at a later time)

Again thanks everyone for the help! (Will post back tonight with updated flywheel teeth and a few pics of dimensions)
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: 1200 to 1600 SP (Am I doing this right?) Reply with quote

Are folks sure that a 180mm flywheel/clutch can handle a 1600cc engine? VW changed to 200mm systems with 1500cc engines.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 1200 to 1600 SP (Am I doing this right?) Reply with quote

Cusser wrote:
Are folks sure that a 180mm flywheel/clutch can handle a 1600cc engine? VW changed to 200mm systems with 1500cc engines.


I run a 180mm flywheel on my hopped up 1600 in my 63. I used this clutch and pressure plate.

https://vwparts.aircooled.net/180mm-Kennedy-Engineering-Racing-Clutch-Kit-p/kep180.htm

I have no issues with clutch slip whatsoever when I run autocross. I even launch pretty hard. Well, as hard as a a beetle with 65hp can launch.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: 1200 to 1600 SP (Am I doing this right?) Reply with quote

starboy wrote:
I guess a follow-up question would be (and forgive my ignorance) I thought the 1600 was 12v already?


I would swap your alternator from the 1200 to the 1600. I would assume the car has been wired for the internally regulated alternator and the wiring for the external regulator for the generator has been deleted. You may need to swap the alt/gen stands as well.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:33 pm    Post subject: Re: 1200 to 1600 SP (Am I doing this right?) Reply with quote

Cusser wrote:
Are folks sure that a 180mm flywheel/clutch can handle a 1600cc engine?

Yes. I'm running an original 180mm three arm pressure plate and stock solid disc on my 1600SP, absolutely no issues.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: 1200 to 1600 SP (Am I doing this right?) Reply with quote

Quote:
It could just be the picture but it looks like the 1600 already has a 180mm flywheel. I'm going by the diameter of the clutch cutout, which looks smaller than what I would imagine a 200mm flywheel would have
I agree with this observation. The 200 mm pressure plates were recessed into the flywheel; your 1600's FW does not appear to have the recessed ledge.

You don't NEED to switch the alternator from your 40 hp engine to the 1600. My preference is the less bulky appearance of the generator. But since your '63 already was wired for the alternator (regulator, wiring) then I'd keep it simple and transfer the alt to the 1600. Yes, along with the alt/gen stand. Note that neither engine has the fuel pump which "should" be installed for the alternator. Fuel pumps for Alt engines have the upper section slightly tilted to the left for clearance with the alt body, AND they use a shorter pushrod underneath. But since your 40 hp ran with the alt, you can transfer the 40 hp's pump to the 1600.

Yes, the 1600 single-port was 12 V for US markets, and used a generator. The 1600 single-port (if the engine started out as a 1600 and not a 1500 or even 1300) was factory-installed for the 1970 Beetle, Bus and Ghia.

If you want to use the apparent 109-tooth flywheel that is now on the 1600, you want a "transporter pressure plate". That was sold years ago as a heavy duty type for a Beetle, because it had 30% more holding power than a Beetle PP because the Bus was so much heavier. The Bus PP looked like the one on your 40 hp but had 3 more of those "cylinders" (yours has 6 of them) which house the clutch springs. You'll need a conventional 180 mm clutch disc.

Your 1600 has what appears to be a DVDA distributor (dual vacuum dual advance) as recognized by the "wide" vacuum canister. There should be 2 vacuum pipes; one on the rear face which you can see down at the 7:00 position, and another on the back face (towards the front of car). That distrib. is not an ideal match with the carburetor you have on the 1600, since the DVDA was used on the 1600 dual-port engine's 34 PICT-3 carb that had a dedicated vacuum port for the vacuum pipe going to the vacuum canister retard pipe which is the one on the front side. If that port on the canister has been plugged, that is better.

Do you have heater boxes or J pipes for the 1600? If HB, you need the "fresh air" style HB. If you happen to have that style for a 40 hp even though your engine did not use them, the 40 hp HB will work/bolt onto the 1600. If you have HB for a 1300 and later engine, the outlets at the front that lead hot air into the car's interior are a larger diameter than those on the 40 hp HB. You can buy those pleated heat hoses which have the larger diameter and still go into the smaller diameter body inlets.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: 1200 to 1600 SP (Am I doing this right?) Reply with quote

Evening all,

So just finished up counting the teeth on both engines. They BOTH have 109 teeth, which from the knowledge I researched so far lead me down possibly a dangerous path.

I did a little more research and started looking up the engine codes (New engine code is: H5901733), it does look like the engine I bought is indeed a 1500 (not a 1600 as I was lead to believe/sold) Understanding this is completely my fault for not doing more digging when purchasing the said engine, is this a HUGE drawback from a 1600 single port?

Some more detailed pictures for the heck of it.

The 1600 engine I was sold, and now just finding out it's a 1500, with tooth count:. (New to the Aircooled game clearly)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Orginal 1200 pulled from the car, with tooth count:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Before I start swapping everything over, I'm going to give the gentlemen a call whom I bought it off of. Again hopefully this 1500 is close to the 1600 sp, but I'll rely on the community for guidance before I go off.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 1200 to 1600 SP (Am I doing this right?) Reply with quote

The H series 1500 is a good engine in my opinion. It has quite thick cylinder walls which hold up very well, and it has only slightly less power than a 1600SP. Of course there's also the very real possibility that engine has been rebuilt at some point over the years into a 1600 -- you simply can't tell without pulling a cylinder head off to measure the bore.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:28 pm    Post subject: Re: 1200 to 1600 SP (Am I doing this right?) Reply with quote

It started life as a 1500, but I seriously doubt it still is. The 1600 cylinders and pistons fit into a 1500 without any machine work. So 1500's were all rebuilt as 1600s.

1500 pistons and cylinders are rare rare rare.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:42 pm    Post subject: Re: 1200 to 1600 SP (Am I doing this right?) Reply with quote

So I followed up with the seller, and he did confirm this was/is a 1500, but has the 1600 85.5 cylinders/pistons. So from my limited knowledge on this engine does seem to follow suit with what everyone has said about the rebuilds. If anything it seems that this actually makes my life easier because both have the same flywheels?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:12 pm    Post subject: Re: 1200 to 1600 SP (Am I doing this right?) Reply with quote

You can order a tiny borescope online, then feed it through the spark plug holes: with a lot of luck, you may be able to see the piston size etched into one of the pistons, that will tell you whether it's been upgraded, and to what size. That might confirm what size engine you have if it's keeping you up at night (without pulling a cylinder head).

Somebody around here recently posted his process for doing just that, including a link to the (scope) device he got on Amazon, very affordably priced. He specified a method for determining the stroke also, but you apparently won't need to do that (you almost certainly have a 69mm stroke).

Edit: hah, have I been typing for this long, or did I miss your last post? Think
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:26 pm    Post subject: Re: 1200 to 1600 SP (Am I doing this right?) Reply with quote

If the 1500/1600 has the same flywheel tooth count and clutch it should be a bolt in to a 63.

Thing is what have you done so far with your starter?
Have you been using a 6 volt starter on 12v all this time with a very fast cranking speed?
...or have you done some sort of hybrid 6v/12v starter modifications?

Will say the 1600's flywheel teeth look pretty chewed up as in that's what they look like when a 6v starter is ran on 12v for awhile.
Clutch surface doesn't look too sweet either, grooved and rusty.

Most will say when buying a used engine first thing to do is check the endplay. Have you done this?

Sitting there static it's still harder to judge what will happen once you start driving it. Hopefully it won't leak too much oil or make any odd noises.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:13 pm    Post subject: Re: 1200 to 1600 SP (Am I doing this right?) Reply with quote

WesleyGarrard wrote:
The 6v starter will work on 12v just fine.

Yes it does, but I'd recommend swapping the 6V solenoid for a 12V version to keep the starter's pinion gear from slamming so hard into the flywheel. I did this in my '63 and it works great. The solenoids replace each other perfectly...no tweaking required.

If your car still has a 6V horn, that'll work fine on 12V too.

Don't forget to swap your interior dome light over to 12V while changing out all your other light bulbs. What are you doing for a radio?

That 1600 will be a snug fit in your '63, but it'll go. Sometimes removing the heater boxes and muffler can make things go a little easier. It's fairly simple to re-install them once the motor's in the car.
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