Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions
Page: 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Forum Index -> Vintage Speed Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
hoss
Samba Member


Joined: May 01, 2003
Posts: 775
Location: San Jose, CA
hoss is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:09 am    Post subject: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

I'm new to 36hp / Vintage Speed.. but I'm interested in setting something up in my bus that has a tiny bit more pep than what a stock 36hp can give me. Attempting to drive on a freeway in California is a bit scary.

So the bus it will be going in is a '58 Deluxe that is restored, but does not have the original block. I've had the bus about 8 months or so and have not put a lot of miles on the bus.. maybe 1,000 or so. In that time the distributor has popped out while driving twice with my family. The brass drive ring on the crank seems to be shredding when I have taken a peek in through where the fuel pump is. I figure it's best to do a rebuild at this point, as I don't feel like I can fully trust this engine without opening it up anyways.

I have a couple of quotes for a rebuild of my current 36hp, but I am seriously considering adding in the Wolfsburg West Okrasa kit while I am at it to get a little bit more oomph. I have the stock transmission and have RGB's still, so I'm not sure what the affect of any of this will have with this setup.

I have read a ton in this forum, but still have quite a few questions. I know the carbs that come in the kit will need to be re-bushed / rebuilt to work correctly (I see Mr. Okrasa advertising for this). I want to retain reliability and not go crazy with the budget here.

Questions...

- Any preference on the linkage on the WW Kit? I know there is the original and the CSP setup. The CSP setup looks a lot cleaner, but I'm sure the original style looks just that, more original.

- What kind of performance gain should I expect with just the WW kit? Not just in HP but in MPH.

- Will a performance Cam help a lot? One of the quotes I got suggested I pick up a black WW Cam and do a custom grind on it. $200 total for this.

- Exhaust.. stock exhaust vs. WW Abarth vs. Vintage Speed Abarth vs. Vintage Speed single tip sport. Will all of these fit a '58 Pressed Bumper bus? Any preference? Could I stick with Stock or would that be a waste?

- Distributor.. would it be best to go with 019 or 010? I have both available.

- WW 69.5mm Crank. Is this worth the $500 to gain another 100cc with stock pistons?

- Should I be considering any other kit / setup? I've read a little bit about Riecher 28 PCI kits, but the website is so old and doesn't list prices. I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks guys.
_________________
'54 Kombi | '57 356 Coupe | '62 Notchback | '62 Beetle | '66 Pigalle Sunroof Squareback RIP Dave | '70 Westy
Type 3 Registry - http://www.type3registry.com • Type 3 Wiki - http://www.type3wiki.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Gallery Classifieds Feedback
perello
Samba Member


Joined: April 15, 2005
Posts: 718
Location: where social security comes for free
perello is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:18 am    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

hoss wrote:

- What kind of performance gain should I expect with just the WW kit? Not just in HP but in MPH.


None. RGB's limit your speed the same. You can expect more climbing power when loaded. Is hill climbing your issue?

hoss wrote:

- Exhaust.. stock exhaust vs. WW Abarth vs. Vintage Speed Abarth vs. Vintage Speed single tip sport. Will all of these fit a '58 Pressed Bumper bus? Any preference? Could I stick with Stock or would that be a waste?


I use stock. Again, the use of RGB's make most of the imporvements you ask for quite useless.
_________________
Aug '58 pressed bumper SO23
1974 German Thing
1978 Bug 1200
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
hoss
Samba Member


Joined: May 01, 2003
Posts: 775
Location: San Jose, CA
hoss is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:19 am    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

perello wrote:

None. RGB's limit your speed the same. You can expect more climbing power when loaded. Is hill climbing your issue?

I use stock. Again, the use of RGB's make most of the imporvements you ask for quite useless.


No.. I mean hill climbing is bad, but really it's merging on / off the freeways here in California and just attempting to keep up a little better in traffic.

That's a bummer. I didn't realize the RGB's would hold it back. Makes the whole setup a waste then right?
_________________
'54 Kombi | '57 356 Coupe | '62 Notchback | '62 Beetle | '66 Pigalle Sunroof Squareback RIP Dave | '70 Westy
Type 3 Registry - http://www.type3registry.com • Type 3 Wiki - http://www.type3wiki.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Gallery Classifieds Feedback
txoval
Samba Member


Joined: August 18, 2007
Posts: 1856
Location: The Woodlands, TX
txoval is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

The engine improvements would help you accelerate faster, and could increase top MPH. It takes more HP/TQ to drive the Bus at faster speeds.

I do not have experience with VW Busses, but I'd imagine the stock 36hp doesn't reach its max cruising rpm in 4th gear even with the RGBs...?

What's your primary goal? Period correctness or better driving?

You could build a nice reliable 2 liter engine for equal or less than then a stroked/Okrasa 36hp based engine, and the performance would be much better.

$5k for a stroked Okrasa engine and 60hp

or

$5k for a 2110cc engine with 120+ hp

If our vehicles are tough/no fun to drive they usually sit in the garage.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sled
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2005
Posts: 5296

sled is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

the RGB's are NOT any kind of limiting factor. if you have the engine to push the bus you could drive 75 all day long with RGB's RGBs just reduce the final drive ratio of a BUS SPECIFIC transmission because they have much taller gearing than a beetle. (and the RGB's increase ground clearance to match the front)

a full rebuilt okrasa'd 36 will be much more pleasant to drive than a stock worn out 36. You should be able to cruise 60 no problem. if not, there are other issues. The bigger improvements will be in your ability to get UP TO speed.

have Ruiz do the carb improvements

run the CSP linkage. youre right it does not look as original, but it works WAY better.

run a VJ4 BR8 distributor, this is what would have come on your engine when new (58 bus) and is the same advance curve as a later 019 (the 019 is just the later part number for the BR8)

the $500 spent on a crank will probably not make the power gains you would hope for, for the money spent. Stroker cranks become a bit of a slippery slope. for $500 you could have DPR build you a stroker crank of any size, larger than 69.5 or just run a 74mm porsche crank with 80mm pistons. Its a 'where do I stop' kind of situation.

yes a performance cam will help, but make sure you don't let someone talk you into a wild grind, keep it mild. Also, increase the compression from stock will definitely pep up the engine.

any of the exhausts you listed will work for a mild okrasa 36. the vintage speed single tip would look most original. (stock would be a performance hindrance)

as far as kits for a 36 go, the WW reproduction okrasa kit is the best bang for the buck by far.

if you REALLY want to be able to cruise around with ease, then you should step up to a 1600 based engine. (1776, 1904, 2007, 2110 etc). like mentioned above, you will spend close to the same amount on your 36 as you will for a mild 1776, and still only have HALF the horse power.

that being said, an okrasa 36 looks badass in a 58 bus!!
_________________
drive your split.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mandraks
Samba Member


Joined: November 28, 2004
Posts: 5484
Location: Lawrenceville, Ga
mandraks is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:12 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

hoss wrote:
I...

- Distributor.. would it be best to go with 019 or 010? I have both available.

- WW 69.5mm Crank. Is this worth the $500 to gain another 100cc with stock pistons?

...

Thanks guys.


019 dizzy any time, love them.

as far as the 69.5 crank is concerned. i have seen original okrasa motors in split beetles, used in anger, double clutched, non-synchro box and everything, they were awesome, sounded awesome, and they did outrun a stock 1600 beetle.

so for badass factor, absolutely. worth the extra money? not if you consider the cost of a stock 1600 or even a 1835. Much cheaper, and if you tear it up, get another one.
_________________
regards

Uli

----------------------------------------
'53 3-Fold Oval, L35 Metallic Blue, looking for a narrow hatch panel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
txoval
Samba Member


Joined: August 18, 2007
Posts: 1856
Location: The Woodlands, TX
txoval is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

Like I said above, it boils down to your priority; period correctness or driveability

A hopped up Okrasa engine is still not fast, granted 60hp over 36hp is a big improvement. It's makes a bigger improvement in a Beetle vs. a Bus

The vintage speed engines do look nice, but you could dress up a late model engine to look similar. I believe there are even IDF air filters to match the Porsche style mesh filters
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Chris Paterson
Samba Member


Joined: February 21, 2010
Posts: 1064
Location: Newbury Park, CA
Chris Paterson is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:51 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

So what about just changing the gearing on the transaxle? Can you keep a split case tranny and regear it with the Okrasa kit and a nice exhaust and get 5/10mph out of it on the freeway?
_________________
- Chris
63' Ruby Red Notchback
58' PGSG
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sled
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2005
Posts: 5296

sled is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:22 am    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

at that point it would be much better and cheaper to just use a later small-nut tunnel case transmission.

BUT, its very important to understand how much more horsepower it takes to drive 60 than 55, and 65 than 60, and so on. driving a bus 65 puts much more load on the engine than at 55. 36 horse engines were not designed to go 65 in a bus. (a healthy okrasa may be able to do this)
_________________
drive your split.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sgmalt46
Samba Member


Joined: April 20, 2005
Posts: 848
Location: south san francisco
sgmalt46 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:33 am    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

no. there are no taller gears made for the split case trans. unless you can swap the small nut rgb,s for 64-67 big nut boxes? there a taller ratios s/n 1.39 b/n 1.26 . i will have to dig in my pile of transmissions and axles to see if that can be done? one problem is the e-brake cables are too long and the split case ones wont work. but there is a fix or two for that.
_________________
55 deluxe 23 window bus
64 crew cab
55 rag top beetle
66 beetle
71 square back
46 beetle
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
EVfun
Samba Member


Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 3810
Location: Seattle
EVfun is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:41 am    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

sled wrote:
at that point it would be much better and cheaper to just use a later small-nut tunnel case transmission.

BUT, its very important to understand how much more horsepower it takes to drive 60 than 55, and 65 than 60, and so on. driving a bus 65 puts much more load on the engine than at 55. 36 horse engines were not designed to go 65 in a bus. (a healthy okrasa may be able to do this)

Good point. It will be about 35%-40% more power to go 65 compared to 55. It is roughly speed squared dependent, there is more to it but after building and driving a few electric cars I find it comes out only slightly better, speed^1.75 is quite close. Doubling speed doesn't quite quadrupedal power requirements, roughly 3.4 times as much power is needed.
_________________
Wildthings wrote:
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sgmalt46
Samba Member


Joined: April 20, 2005
Posts: 848
Location: south san francisco
sgmalt46 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:33 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

sled wrote:
at that point it would be much better and cheaper to just use a later small-nut tunnel case transmission.

BUT, its very important to understand how much more horsepower it takes to drive 60 than 55, and 65 than 60, and so on. driving a bus 65 puts much more load on the engine than at 55. 36 horse engines were not designed to go 65 in a bus. (a healthy okrasa may be able to do this)


yes that would be the easy and cheaper way to go. a split case has a 4.43 r/p and a early tunnel has a 4.12.same .82 fourth. a okrasa 36 will will pull those gears. i have drove several buses with a late big nut trans with a stock 36 and did not seem any slower.still would not go over 55 .that said you might be good for 60-65. if you really want to go faster you need to go a different way.if your okrasa is pushing 60hp. i dont see why it wont pull a late big nut gear. stock big nut buses where 50 hp?
_________________
55 deluxe 23 window bus
64 crew cab
55 rag top beetle
66 beetle
71 square back
46 beetle
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
hoss
Samba Member


Joined: May 01, 2003
Posts: 775
Location: San Jose, CA
hoss is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:29 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

Thanks for all the responses here.

Really awesome information... I'm trying to figure out my strategy and budget right now.

With this particular bus, I feel a lot of the charm / value of it is in its originality and correctness, so I think putting a 1500/1600 style case in it detracts from the bus.

I don't think fast is what I'm looking for, I just want to feel a bit more safe by keeping up with traffic a little better on these freeways up here. I think the ability to go 60 mph would feel a lot safer than 53 mph.

Right now I'm looking at rebuilding my 36 and installing the WW Okrasa kit with CSP linkage. Getting a mild cam grind done with the WW Blank, having Mr. Okrasa rebuild the carbs and installing the Vintage Speed Single Tip Sport muffler.

I'm leery to start messing with any transmission stuff, as I know it will just ad cost and time to the project, unless it's felt like its absolutely necessary to do so to get those few more MPH.
_________________
'54 Kombi | '57 356 Coupe | '62 Notchback | '62 Beetle | '66 Pigalle Sunroof Squareback RIP Dave | '70 Westy
Type 3 Registry - http://www.type3registry.com • Type 3 Wiki - http://www.type3wiki.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Gallery Classifieds Feedback
60ragtop Premium Member
Bonneville Belt Bitch


Joined: March 13, 2006
Posts: 7281
Location: Big Wonderful WYO 82401
60ragtop is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:29 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

if you are going to split the case and put in a cam you might as well do a crank also.
I have the WW kit on my 60 along with a 69.5 crank and cam and it woke up my 36 hp. Cruising speed is 75 MPH and it gets there sooner than a stock 36. Also can pass other cars now Very Happy
_________________
Rick
Certified Mechanic by the State of Michigan in 1977
ASA certified in 1987
Certified Hunter Wheel Alignment Master Technician 1986
Sharp64 wrote:
But that’s crazy talk. He must be made to comply!!!

TDCTDI wrote:
Jump on it some more & then LITFA.

[email protected] wrote:
aftermarket shit that always needs a tweek eats time

Eaallred wrote:
People are over analyzing.......(insert your problem here)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Chris Paterson
Samba Member


Joined: February 21, 2010
Posts: 1064
Location: Newbury Park, CA
Chris Paterson is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:35 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

60ragtop wrote:
if you are going to split the case and put in a cam you might as well do a crank also.
I have the WW kit on my 60 along with a 69.5 crank and cam and it woke up my 36 hp. Cruising speed is 75 MPH and it gets there sooner than a stock 36. Also can pass other cars now Very Happy


Rick what kind of car and what transmission?
_________________
- Chris
63' Ruby Red Notchback
58' PGSG
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
txoval
Samba Member


Joined: August 18, 2007
Posts: 1856
Location: The Woodlands, TX
txoval is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

I would assume his 60 ragtop beetle.

Stock Bus with RGB's and an Okrasa 36hp engine is not going to go 75

From a cost standpoint and wanting to maintain the 36hp case, my advice to the OP would be to buy one of Joe's short-blocks or long-blocks or look at another 36 hp engine builder such as Matt at Aircooled Research.

I enjoyed building mine, but the costs add up quick, especially moving to Okrasa and possibly stroked. Depending on the condition of your case, you could be looking at $1k just to have RIMCO machine it. Joe's current price on a short block is a good deal.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sled
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2005
Posts: 5296

sled is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:11 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

ok rather than just speculating and saying this will work or that wont work, lets look at the numbers.

a stock 58 split case transaxle has a 4.40 ring and a .82 fourth gear. The reduction boxes are 1.4

I am assuming you are running stock tires which are 6.40-15, or an equivalent diameter radial tire.

with this setup, your engine will be spinning 3786 rpm at 60mph. While this is not an ridiculous speed, it is a little less than ideal unless your engine has been fully balanced. Generally for a balance of optimum cooling/fuel consumption/performance I like to cruise on the freeway around 3400-3500. That being said, you will either need slightly larger tires, or different gearing in the transmission.

OR when you have the engine built, make sure you spend some extra cash and have all of the rotating components balanced WELL. I would have no concern singing along for hours on end at 3700 rpms with a quality rotating mass.

Now, since you want to stay with the okrasa 36 (which I agree is awesome) I think you should look into maybe running a later 'small nut' transaxle. by simply switching your transaxle your cruising rpms at 60 mph will drop to 3500rpm. This is a happy place for a nice okrasa 36, with enough room to floor it and go 70 (4100rpm) for a while if you please.

about the crank..We will all have varying opinions but I dont think the $500 is worth it for the performance gains. I would take that $500 and spend it on improving the heads. the stock ports and combustion chambers leave quite a bit to be desired. If some work went into the chambers to improve combustion, you could run a higher compression ratio which equates to more power and torque across the board. A little port work will give you some extra oomph at higher rpms which will help with getting onto the freeway and possibly being able to pass someone. Again, there are those who will disagree but its just something to chew on.

OR just say screw it and let the greenbacks fly and build a 74x80. You would love it!
_________________
drive your split.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Downtown Brown
Samba Member


Joined: May 29, 2004
Posts: 368
Location: Humboldt Nation
Downtown Brown is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

I like what your thinking of doing there are less buses with RGB and stock 36case engines . The WW stroked crank sounds like a great idea in a heavy bus . Will it be fast enough don't know.. Hopefully someone with real world experience will post . As to 5mph more with small nut RGB ( coolness factor) I'd think small nut '63 1500 RGB's( with the later gearing) would be next.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
60ragtop Premium Member
Bonneville Belt Bitch


Joined: March 13, 2006
Posts: 7281
Location: Big Wonderful WYO 82401
60ragtop is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:42 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

yes 60 bug with stock trans. OP said he just wants to go 60 rather than 53 Wink. Just trying to give some feedback.
I believe when WW came out with this kit and possibly the crank they ran it in a split window bus to get some miles on it before they offered it for sale to the public. Might research that.
I'm glad I found the extra cash to do the stroker along with the WW kit. It is $$ well spent for fun driving. and I did all the work myself.
_________________
Rick
Certified Mechanic by the State of Michigan in 1977
ASA certified in 1987
Certified Hunter Wheel Alignment Master Technician 1986
Sharp64 wrote:
But that’s crazy talk. He must be made to comply!!!

TDCTDI wrote:
Jump on it some more & then LITFA.

[email protected] wrote:
aftermarket shit that always needs a tweek eats time

Eaallred wrote:
People are over analyzing.......(insert your problem here)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
txoval
Samba Member


Joined: August 18, 2007
Posts: 1856
Location: The Woodlands, TX
txoval is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:50 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Rebuild with WW Okrasa Kit in Bus - Many Questions Reply with quote

Like I said in my first post, I have zero experience with Busses, just trying to help from 36hp engine experience trial/error

For those who know, would the original 36hp make it to 60 or did the engine hp/tq limit it to less? I don't think RPM's are the issue, can a stock 36hp push a stock weight Bus to 60mph?

If so, an Okrasa based, stock stroke 36hp engine will do the trick nicely. I'm just trying to avoid the OP's let down after spending $5k and the Bus barely makes it to 60mph
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Vintage Speed All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2020, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB