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411-412 headlight switch service and repair
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:52 am    Post subject: 411-412 headlight switch service and repair Reply with quote

VW 411-412 (and some type 1 and type 3) headlight switch repair and service.


OK…this is one of those things that every owner should do.
Why?


Because ALL of these switches are problematic in several ways:

1. Whether they are in good shape or not, the grease inside gets stiff and hardens with age. This causes the amount of force required to pull the switch on or off to increase greatly.
The crusty grease and high force cause the detent balls inside to leverage the back connector plate away from the metal switch body.

This can cause the back plate to crack and/or chip away at the corners of the plate where it is crimped/fastened to the metal body. It will eventually cause the two parts to separate.

2. Because the switch has an opening in the bottom where the rheostat protrudes through that lets moisture/condensation in. If you do not have perfect seals in your car…meaning any leaks at all or live in a very humid area it causes the rheostat to corrode.

3. When the back plate eventually separates…and almost all of them will….at best, you lose headlight, parking light and dash light function. At worst it can create a short that causes a fire.

These parts like many other type 4 parts are virtually non-existent NEW….and almost as hard to find used…and all of the used ones have all of these problems. Having this part break WILL keep you from driving your car.

So to preserve what you have and prevent breakage or to make any used parts you buy…work better and last longer, you should take these apart, clean them and lubricate them with a modern, long-lasting, non-hardening lubricant.

IMPORTANT NOTE: for the purists out there…bear in mind that when you disassemble the switch, because of the way the corners are crimped…it will never go back together as clean looking as it was and if you rely on a refurbished version of the factory crimp….it will be just as unsure with further age. In fact, the very best, most secure way to hold these together is with a zip-tie.

This is because the switch body is not stamped steel. It is die-cast aluminum or zinc alloy.

To some, uncrimping a still functioning switch and having to use a zip tie to hold it back together may seem counterintuitive…but if you leave it alone…it may force you to do this at the worst time and may even lose parts in the process.
Bear in mind, if the connector plate cracks, the switch is destroyed. The back plate is actually Bakelite and adhesives will not work.

Fix it before it breaks.

What we are working on:

The most common switches in the US are the 411 941 531 A found on most of the 411 from 71 through 72 and the early 412 in 1973. The 411 941 531 D was essentially the same as the “A” version with the difference being that pin 57 was omitted and the 58b pin is 2.8mm.

I have rarely seen a 411 941 531..as it would have been 1968-70 and have no idea if there is a “B” or “C” model …but I would bet assembly and cleaning are similar.

There are two versions of the 411 941 531 A. The most common one is easy to disassemble. The other less common build has a riveted shaft and cannot readily be disassembled. I will talk about how to clean and lube that one.

I disassembled two of the same switch type. One had a very common problem of the rheostat being totally disintegrated. In that case….you have the option if you are industrious of rewinding your own rheostat coil from resistance wire and soldering the live end and then applying ceramic mastic to keep it in place.

While I hate not having anything not working in my cars….this one I am willing to live with. Without the rheostat the dash lights will still work…just at 100% instead of being variable. They were not super bright in the first place so most use them at 100% and rarely notice that the rheostat is gone.

I will show parts of both so you can see what we are looking at.

Start:

NOTE: If your connector plate has popped loose, carefully shake out any loose parts and keep them and snap it back together and hold it with a zip tie. You will be decrimping the corners either way.

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Here is the switch with bezel screw and knob

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Pull the knob all the way outward

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Unscrew the knob

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Find a 5mm nut and a couple of washers

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Thread the nut and washers on down to the plastic ferrule

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You can use a pair of diagonal cutter pliers or a pair of Vise Grip pliers set to just larger than the ferrule. I am not biting down on the plastic here. I am just using the pliers for leverage. Grip the switch firmly and pull the shaft out with a pop.

[color=orange]Important note:[/color]

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If your switch has this opening opposite the knob….you cannot remove the knob and you cannot do this disassembly. Skip to the last chapter.

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Shaft pulled out.

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Unscrew the bezel

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Flip the switch over so you are looking at the rheostat. Insert a small screwdriver and slowly lever the rheostat armature out….SLOWLY AND ONLY ABOUT HALFWAY. IT IS SPRING LOADED!

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Grip it tightly…the springs are surprisingly strong….and pull it all the way out.

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Once it’s out, set it aside and release the tension slowly. The springs will rise about 3/16” and then you can lay it down flat.

NOTE: it pays to be working over a little magnetic parts dish (about $3 at Harbor Freight)

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Here is what is inside. Two springs, the Bakelite hub and the contact plate.

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You can see the rheostat plate here. It is a separate part from the back contact plate…but is connected to it via the rheostat wire being crimped to it. So if your rheostat is intact the back plate and the rheostat plate will come out together.
If the rheostat wire is broken the rheostat plate may separate from the back contact plate. It’s not a worry.

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The metal of the enclosure is very brittle. There is no great way to uncramp this. The corners of the metal are going to crack no matter what you use…thin needle nose pliers or simply insert a thine flat blade screwdriver and twist lightly.

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You can see how the metal has cracked away.

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If the back contact plate has not popped out yet but can be wiggled and shows to be loose, remove the zip tie if you had one on it and holding the back plate from flying away….push on the rheostat plate with your thumb and fingers. The back plate should pop loose.

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This is what you get.

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This is looking at the rheostat plate still keyed into the back board. The brass center ring is power feed to the little plate that rides on the coil. The brass tab on the right that the rheostat coil is crimped to is where the rheostat stator contact resides when the dash light power is full on.

So you can see that even if you ripped out the rheostat coil or it was rusted away. Just turning the knob full clockwise will give full on dash lights operation.

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If you need to remove the rheostat plate or to apply new ceramic heat sink mastic behind the rheostat coil…you carefully lift and pull from this end.
We will not be doing that.
It’s not worth it unless you are rewinding and replacing the coil. It is too easy to damage. That will be a later addition.

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This is the switch board/back plate and rheostat feeder ring after circuit cleaner but before polish. This particular switch had the rheostat coil missing so the rheostat plate is removed for this picture

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After cleaning with circuit cleaner and a polish with 2000 grit paper and another rinse.

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This is the nylon detent ball carrier slide after cleaning all the old grease off. The left hand side view goes on the back wall of the switch farthest from the pull knob.
It has the smaller hole for the barb of the knob shaft to pop into. The view of the same part on the left is the side that faces the knob. It has the larger hole that the shaft stem and barb pass through.

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This is a view of the orientation so you can see how it goes. The holes are underneath. The barb pops through the smaller holes to rest on the back side of that bulkhead it is above. The two holes in the picture have springs inside (removed for cleaning) and the detent balls sit on top of those springs.

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Here is the enclosure looking toward the back wall with the three detents visible after cleaning away all of the old crusty grease.

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Same part with SuperLube applied and ready to assemble.

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Apply lube at the three red arrows where the shaft pops in.

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Install the detent ball springs.

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Install the detent balls. Stick them in place with liberal amounts of superlube

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You can install it upside down like this…..all the way to the back in the off detent position…mind the orientation. Smallest shaft hole to the back of the switch.

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Then turn it up but keep it tilted backward with the knob end slightly higher so the nylon detent slider does not fall forward and fall over.

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Propping it up slightly to work on it keeps the slider from falling over.

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Install the small springs

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Install the switch plates. Mind the tab/slots. They only fit one way.

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Note the slot in the wall. This is where the rheostat plate slides in. This is one of the most notable ways to tell that the switch body is a cast metal 4tshape…and not stamped metal…..which means its brittle which is why peening in the detents on the corner to hold the switch together is difficult.

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Holding the switch body at a tilt with the knob end upward so that the nylon detent sliding block does not tilt and dump the springs and plates out….slide the rheostat plate into the groove/channel in the body until the entire back plate seats.

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Holding the back plate on tight…wrap it with a zip tie in the gap between terminals 57 and 58 and terminals X and 30 on the end away from the rheostat plate.

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VERY IMPORTANT: Note the arrow in the picture. The bump or “nub” on the brass rheostat pickup plate MUST be dead centered in the spring or it WILL destroy the spring when you squeeze the parts together.

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So from the last picture….flip the plate over like this….and align the nub in spring…and make sure the tab or flag on the brass contact plate matches up to the flag or tab on the Bakelite hub.

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Keeping the brass contact plate flat and level as you press it down so that the springs do not pop sideways…press the assembly together. You will not that it has considerable spring pressure for such a small assembly.

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Holding the rheostat hub assembly together with the tab side out.

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With the tab side outward on the rheostat hub…slide it into the opening in the switch body.

NOTE: My jury is still out on whether to put lubricant on the rheostat hub face. It works fine but usually you have to work it a bit to get full connectivity and get the lube where it needs to be and not block current. It definitely extends the life and cuts down wear.

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Slide the rheostat hub in so its roughly centered.

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Insert the shaft and align the notched section so it slips through the rheostat hub and goes all the way to the rear.

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Push down hard and the barb on the inner shaft end will pop into the nylon detent slider.

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You re effectively done.

Re-crimping (if zip ties don’t work for you):

As you no doubt noted, when you de-crimped the corners, the metal cracked away. This is because it’s a casting.

So here is what you can do:

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This is one corner of the switch back plate. Note the recesses where the original crimping was folded into.

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In this picture you can see what we do. With a steady hand and a small diameter (1/2” or smaller) cut-off wheel on a Dremel tool, you want to reduce the thickness of the plate on these corners so the corner areas are down below the cracked area of the original crimps and into new metal area.

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Then you can re-crimp with a flat faced punch. This is difficult to do. The switch should be held together while you do this with a zip tie and you need to devise a way to hold the switch that does not crush or damage it.

Once you crimp the corners in…remove the zip tie and make sure there is no play between the back plate and switch body. If there is, re-apply the zip tie and crimp some more. Then clean up the crimp with a file.

Personally I do not trust the crimp on a cast switch body so if I must crimp I add a dab of JB weld….which I also do not fully trust because Bakelite is hard to attach anything to permanently.

If you clean the Bakelite very well with acetone or MEK….and rough up the points to adhere (which you are) one of the thicker super glues (cyanoacrylate) can work very well.

IMPORTANT NOTE: I am fine with the zip-tie because it’s out of sight, fully functional and makes the switch easy to re-service later. BUT….use the black or colored polypropylene zip-ties…not the clear/yellow-beige nylon zip-ties.
They last longer and stay flexible longer.

Switch manufacturing differences:


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If your switch version has an opening in the end opposite the knob like this, it means that the shaft is riveted in and cannot be as easily disassembled. I am working on this one.

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What you want to do is pull the knob out to the “on” position and using a spray can of fast drying circuit board cleaner, spray liberally through this hole with the extension straw/tube.

Work the switch in and out and then also spray through and around the rheostat assembly. Work the switch in and out numerous times. The object is to flood the inside with circuit cleaner to dissolve all of the grease.

You can also use fast drying carburetor cleaner like Berryman’s B-12 Chemtool, but finish up with fast drying circuit cleaner and then blow dry. With compressed air while working the switch.

Then with the knob again in the on position, use a grease gun and needle, through the hole in the switch body to apply SuperLube directly into and across the area where the detent ball depressions are on the metal shell of the switch and also to the Bakelite backing board side.

Apply liberally. Work the switch back and forth a few times to spread the grease and get it on the detent balls.

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Ray
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ClassicCamper
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:51 pm    Post subject: Re: 411-412 headlight switch service and repair Reply with quote

Although said by many others mulitple times, it's amazing how much detail you know about these vehicles. You really help keep many many of these vehicles safe and roadworthy, especially considering how content-poor most of the available service manuals are.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:12 am    Post subject: Re: 411-412 headlight switch service and repair Reply with quote

Applause
Agree to ClassicCamper!

/Lars S
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: 411-412 headlight switch service and repair Reply with quote

Thank you guys!.....and ClassicCamper.....its for that exact reason that I am doing these (along with just plain documentation).

When I got my first 411 four door......like 1978-79......I was in high school and knew nothing about cars. My father knew a bit about Vws......he had a 68 beetle. But struts, gas heaters and fuel injection. ....was beyond us.....not because we were not handy with a wrench....but because there was virtually no published information available.

This was pre-internet. Even finding a company that sold automotive publications was a pain. My first book with any information on the 411/412.....was the Chiltons manual......which is very poor for anything other than very basic.

I later found a Haynes....much better.....but really was sketchy in a lot of areas. I found an Elfrink's manual on D-Jet.....mainly type 3 and 914.....which helped but had the same issues........it was only really useful information if the car and the parts you were working with were relatively new.

On one hand there is no Bentley for the 411/412. On the other hand......the problems the Benley manuals can have....in my opinion. ...is that they contain little if any real world world upgrades (things like newer materials, changed methods that we have found work better over the years, methods of adjusting that can be done without factory tools etc.).....but most importantly. ...I feel the Bentley....if there were one written for the type 4 long ago........it would only be of limited usefulness.

This is because the Bentley manuals largely stick to exact factory method, factory tools and all factory materials.....and much of that does not exist......and also.....it would recommend. ....for instance.......in the case of an item like these switches.....the Bentley would only reccomend replacement and not repair.
If I could simply replace one for $30.... I would probably not waste too much time on repair.
Ray
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1973 412 WAGON
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:13 pm    Post subject: Re: 411-412 headlight switch service and repair Reply with quote

Ray,
Thank you again for all your help. You are a wealth of 412 Knowledge and it is awesome to have somebody that knows this much about them. I will send some pictures soon.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:35 pm    Post subject: Re: 411-412 headlight switch service and repair Reply with quote

1973 412 WAGON wrote:
Ray,
Thank you again for all your help. You are a wealth of 412 Knowledge and it is awesome to have somebody that knows this much about them. I will send some pictures soon.


If your switch is beyond repair.....if you wait a few days I will post pictures of how to make a simple adapter to be able to use the new type 3 switch in the type 4 car. Ray
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1973 412 WAGON
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:55 am    Post subject: Re: 411-412 headlight switch service and repair Reply with quote

I am going to rebuild it today and get it back in the car and see if it works. I think it is repairable. If Not i will let you know. Thanks again ray for your time and Knowledge of these great cars.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:37 pm    Post subject: Re: 411-412 headlight switch service and repair Reply with quote

Ray, thanks for the detailed description. Excellent work.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:56 pm    Post subject: Re: 411-412 headlight switch service and repair Reply with quote

Very thorough job! Probably applicable to VW switches of other types, too.
Good candidate for the sticky thread!
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: 411-412 headlight switch service and repair Reply with quote

UPDATE:

Here is a little update so that you know the differences.

411 941 531 is the baseline part number for 411/412 headlight switches.

You can use the 311 941 531 type 3, beetle, ghia version of the switch..... as long as

1. It has the correct pin outs (not a problem. They exist)

2. It MUST have an adapter made...or there is a 100% risk of a short...that kills all systems including lights and emergency flashers and/or a high risk of a wiring fire.

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This is the difference. Even though these switches are actually emergency flasher switches....the differences between type 1,2, 3 based switches and type 4 switches are the same for headlight switches.

The switch with the short snout is type 1 and 3. THE switch with the longer snout is type 4 SPECIFIC.

The problem is that the type 4 headlight switch fits into an asymmetrically shaped conical hole or "well" on the backside of the dash. Without the extended snout the wires WILL come come into contact with the dash metal almost instantly if a type 1 or 3 based switch is used.

It will short out typically almost as soon as you connect the battery.

The type 4 switch already has slight issues....because the hole or "well" behind the dash is asymmetrical in shape. Its closer on one side...and that side just happens to be on the side facing the fuse block where the wires are coming from.
So...if the bezel nut is not kept tight which is required to keep the switch snout in the proper position on the locating nub stamped into the dash...the switch can rotate...and even the type 4 specific switch can short out.

This has happened to me several times before I learned what the issue was. The last time it happened...I almost got killed. It wiped out all power while I was in a dark tunnel underpass.

Knowing what fuse blew (but not why yet) I was able to get a 25 amp fuse into the fuse holder and get the car started and pulled out of the underpass....just in time to get passed by a 10 wheel dumptruck ripping through the underpass at about 50 mph.

With no headlights or emergency flashers I would have been nailed and dead.

So do not experiment.

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This is what you need to do to make an adapter for a type 1/type 3 switch to fit in a type 4. I will have this mod outlined soon.
Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:52 am    Post subject: Re: 411-412 headlight switch service and repair Reply with quote

Marvelous. Thanks Ray, these are always a pleasure to read.

I've used epoxy on similar cases (to closing the lid) but as Ray says, it bonds quite badly to circuit board so you have use it liberally, basically forming an epoxy lip.

Depends on the use, but for longevity the zip tie is the solution: Easy to re-grease every 10 years.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: 411-412 headlight switch service and repair Reply with quote

Kharon8 wrote:
Marvelous. Thanks Ray, these are always a pleasure to read.

I've used epoxy on similar cases (to closing the lid) but as Ray says, it bonds quite badly to circuit board so you have use it liberally, basically forming an epoxy lip.

Depends on the use, but for longevity the zip tie is the solution: Easy to re-grease every 10 years.


Very well put about the epoxy. It sticks just fine to the metal. So you really have to build a lip to hold the Bakelite circuit board in.

Laughing I am really torn about the zip tie. When its laying on my work bench...it just kills me to look at it. But....it functions perfectly, is perfectly safe...and once its under the dash and out of sight....I guess I can live with it.

I have a phobia about these switches coming apart. As I noted....aside from literally almost getting killed when one shorted out because I did not yet know to check the locating lug behind the dash.......

......on my first 411....my very first car.....I was in high school...a year before leaving for college. I drove 65 miles north of Oklahoma City where I lived...to Stillwater Oklahoma to visit friends at Oklahoma State University.

The landscape between Oklahoma city and Stillwater....is a combination slightly rolling forested hills and farmland....and country roads outside of staying on the major interstate...I-35.

So driving out of Stillwater to go home ...about 10 minutes before dark....before I reached the main interstate highway....I pulled the light switch ....and it came apart in pieces....little parts tinkling away under the dash and down by my feet.

The lights go out...the main fuse blows. I rattle the switch around so it was not shorting out. Get the fuse replaced and car started...but no lights. Its very dark in 20 minutes....only a little light from the sky.

I am on country roads and no map, no lights...and only a small flashlight. I was lost for 1.5 hours. The only saving grace was the moon came up.

Nerve wracking driving in near total darkness for 1.5 hours until I got close enough to OKC to find a road I recognized about 25 miles out.

I take care of my switches now! Wink Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:16 am    Post subject: Re: 411-412 headlight switch service and repair Reply with quote

Nice story. Smile

I had same type of problem but it wasn't the switch breaking, it was basically working as designed, but still led to loss of headlights.

Scary at dark when you doing 60.

And it it was a '61 Cadillac so quite far from VWs.

But anyway: I had swapped headlights from sealed beams to H4 units (all 4) and had additional relays for the inner lights, but not for all of them.

Well, old sealed beams are about 25 watts per piece and H4 is 55W/65W per unit and Cadillad had overcurrent (heat) switch within light switch. I didn't know that: Fuses were 16A fuses, well enough for H4 bulbs.

No problem with low beam on as 110W was only 10% over the nominal 100W and of course I tested it on low beams and only shortly on high beam: They were working so no problems.

So after a while with high beams on, heat switch cut all the lights out. Oops.

130W was too much.

Once I realized where the problem is (and got home), I just installed relays for the outer lamps too, no problem after that.
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surfbus23
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: 411-412 headlight switch service and repair Reply with quote

Hi Ray,

I've got the bus version of this switch. 211941531. Unfortunately, my rheostat is long gone, but wanted to get in and clean this up. I don't have the nut on the shaft like the Porsche ones do.

I've given it some good pressure, but I don't want to break it. Any tips? I'm guessing it needs a decent amount of force, but I don't want to go breaking anything that isn't broken to prevent it from breaking in the future.

Thanks!
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 12:22 pm    Post subject: Re: 411-412 headlight switch service and repair Reply with quote

surfbus23 wrote:
Hi Ray,

I've got the bus version of this switch. 211941531. Unfortunately, my rheostat is long gone, but wanted to get in and clean this up. I don't have the nut on the shaft like the Porsche ones do.

I've given it some good pressure, but I don't want to break it. Any tips? I'm guessing it needs a decent amount of force, but I don't want to go breaking anything that isn't broken to prevent it from breaking in the future.

Thanks!


Post a couple of pictures please. Ray
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surfbus23
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 411-412 headlight switch service and repair Reply with quote

It's taped up but looks exactly the same except it doesn't have the nut. Instead it has that little hole. The parts of the insides I've seen are identical as well to what you've shown.


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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 3:08 pm    Post subject: Re: 411-412 headlight switch service and repair Reply with quote

I need to see the ned opposite the knob. If it has a hole with a rivet.....it likely pops out. If there is no hole.....its likely threaded i . Ray
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surfbus23
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: 411-412 headlight switch service and repair Reply with quote

Somehow I keep missing my email notifications about a response. There is no hole with rivet. A bit confused because earlier you said if it has a rivet then you probably can't service it, but now you are saying if it has the rivet it can. Which one can be serviced? With or without rivet?

How much force is required to "pop" out the shaft. I stuck a tiny screwdriver through the hole and gave it a pretty good forceful pulling, but no pop.

Thanks,

K
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:56 pm    Post subject: Re: 411-412 headlight switch service and repair Reply with quote

surfbus23 wrote:
Somehow I keep missing my email notifications about a response. There is no hole with rivet. A bit confused because earlier you said if it has a rivet then you probably can't service it, but now you are saying if it has the rivet it can. Which one can be serviced? With or without rivet?

How much force is required to "pop" out the shaft. I stuck a tiny screwdriver through the hole and gave it a pretty good forceful pulling, but no pop.

Thanks,

K


Ok...if it has no rivet.....the shaft pops out. It takes a LOT of force. Probably 15lbs.

If youook closely....you will see that ai installed a nut and washers on the shaft so I can mount the shaft...say between the loose jaws of a bolted down vise.....so ai can pull on the whole switch body. That will pop it out.

If you work with a lot of plastic items.....and you know anything about nylon and how tough it is.....thats what the slider is made of.
The barb on the end of the shaft is large and square edged. It takes a good amount kf force to pop it out and in. Ray
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surfbus23
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:27 pm    Post subject: Re: 411-412 headlight switch service and repair Reply with quote

Got it. I didn't realize that you were adding the nut and washer. I saw that and thought it was the difference between the Porsche model and the bus model. It's not. They are identical, since I can see inside mine as it had already popped open in the rear.

Thanks for the great help!

K
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