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deadwesty Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2006 Posts: 261
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Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:33 am Post subject: Air-cooled motor |
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Hello everyone! I believe its my first post in vanagon forum. I am usually a split bus guy. My girl and I am expecting our first child and felt a vanagon would suit our needs better so we just bought a 1982 air cooled westfalia.
We drove the westy 25 hours back home from where we bought it. I was surprised at how slow/weak it is, compare to a 78 westy I owned in the past with a similar stock 2.0 motor. I guess vanagons worn their motors much faster?
With that being said, I want something bigger and gives us more power. I research on forums for more information on air cooled motor options but the forums are over flow with conversions and I am not interested in that!
What I would like is to discuss with you guys to see what your suggests, opinions and experience on rebuilding air cooled motors to a bigger size for a heavy loaded westfalia. Budget is not an issue here. What combo, size, cam, FI set up??
I had a carb/solid lifters 2366cc (71x103) on a 72 westy and I loved how powerful it was (still have the motor sitting) and want something similar for my vanagon. But this time I am required to pass smog test (california). How big can I go and still pass the smog test? As I understand, it doesn't matter as long as its fuel injected and have all correct catalyst/muffler set up?
Last resort would be going with Camper's special engine kit (less complicated) but I believe my local motor builder can build something for cheaper. Which is why I would like to touch bases with you all and know what is possible or not before I go and talk to my engine builder. So fire away and educate me.
Heres a couple of picture of our westy, Velma!
Cheers!
_________________ Instagram- @vwwanderers
1986 westy syncro
1990 tin top syncro |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:09 am Post subject: Re: Air-cooled motor |
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I would first run some diagnostics on your current engine to see if you're missing stock power output. Compression test, fuel pressure test, timing, visual inspection of ignition, injection and cooling systems, etc. I never felt like my '80 AC Westfalia van was slow, and especially not when compared to my earlier split and bay vans. _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Wasted youth Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012 Posts: 5134 Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:10 pm Post subject: Re: Air-cooled motor |
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You asked for opinions...
You run a very high risk of failing a smog check and perhaps tagging your VIN as a gross polluter if you build up an engine that is well beyond stock. I'm talking also about the engine management components, non-stock parts, etc.
Don't forget you can fail a smog check just by a visual; and not even get it on the treadmill. You can fail a smog check with something as simple as a bad gas cap or an Evap system leak.
Compound the risk with a much higher volume engine with all your money tied up in it.
Want an improvement that has a chance to pass a smog check? Subaru EJ22 conversion. Your van has a space for a radiator. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15129 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:17 am Post subject: Re: Air-cooled motor |
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what if for the same $$ as a rebuilt/built up air cooled
you could have
better MPG
more power up hills and general cruising speeds
easier starts and new(er) engine management components
real heat without the fumes and oil residue.
quieter interior for easier conversations and relaxing travel comfort.
cleaner burning smog acceptable engine?
all you have to do is ad a radiator and coolant pipes. that are already made and available to fit your chassis (bay guys need custom/DIY parts).
it's a stubborn no brainer to run the oem engine with it's expensive and unavailable parts. when a Suby 2.2 will slip in like it belongs there.
you can still get the exhaust to make a satisfying boxer style sound..
turn the key and forget kind of travel and roadtrip driving.. focus on the route and not the CHTs or working around that truck in the truck lane you are occupying.. _________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:56 am Post subject: Re: Air-cooled motor |
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Ugh...YAECT _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Air-cooled motor |
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I will not. _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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weswsimpson Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2015 Posts: 191 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Air-cooled motor |
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As a new owner of an '80 air-cooled vanagon I'll give you my perspective and experience so far....
Having an 80-83 vanagon is like being an adopted child... we don't quite fit in with the rest of the much larger water-cooled family... there's not a lot of parts and information out there for air-cooled vanagons with most of the development going towards the bigger market of the water-cooled versions.
If I were to do it again... I would get a water-cooled Westfalia instead of an air-cooled ASI Riviera. If i were going to do an engine swap I'd want the water cooled platform to start with.
I used to live in California... I wouldn't attempt to make modifications and pass smog there--or any state for that matter that does emissions testing. I just had to sell my Chevy Express Van because it wasn't worth fixing to pass smog in Chicago. Is your vanagon a Federal or California version, if it's federal you may not be able register in California!
If your hobby is spending time and money fixing cars great--go for it. If you want to spend time with the family going camping you might consider buying a different van with an upgraded engine that someone is selling that has already spent their own time and money sorting out the issues and start enjoying it immediately (don't worry, you'll still have a chance to fix something soon!). I've already spent thousands on my "great deal" vanagon and it's still sitting in my garage. Now I have to keep going (more time, more money) just to get it out of the garage! |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:12 am Post subject: Re: Air-cooled motor |
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weswsimpson wrote: |
As a new owner of an '80 air-cooled vanagon I'll give you my perspective and experience so far....
Having an 80-83 vanagon is like being an adopted child... we don't quite fit in with the rest of the much larger water-cooled family... there's not a lot of parts and information out there for air-cooled vanagons with most of the development going towards the bigger market of the water-cooled versions.
If I were to do it again... I would get a water-cooled Westfalia instead of an air-cooled ASI Riviera. If i were going to do an engine swap I'd want the water cooled platform to start with.
I used to live in California... I wouldn't attempt to make modifications and pass smog there--or any state for that matter that does emissions testing. I just had to sell my Chevy Express Van because it wasn't worth fixing to pass smog in Chicago. Is your vanagon a Federal or California version, if it's federal you may not be able register in California!
If your hobby is spending time and money fixing cars great--go for it. If you want to spend time with the family going camping you might consider buying a different van with an upgraded engine that someone is selling that has already spent their own time and money sorting out the issues and start enjoying it immediately (don't worry, you'll still have a chance to fix something soon!). I've already spent thousands on my "great deal" vanagon and it's still sitting in my garage. Now I have to keep going (more time, more money) just to get it out of the garage! |
Wow!
So Well said and Answers the question from a first hand perspective. ^^^^^
Dave _________________ Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15129 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:47 am Post subject: Re: Air-cooled motor |
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I just added my $.02 as an FYI/awareness. that a coolant upgrade will net better results.. but to each their own..
adding a cooling system into a aircooled vanagon isn't that hard at all, and the donor parts are out there (while they last of course)..
you want purist, then goto the splitty forums.. you want VWs with VW engines goto VW Shows.. you want to keep it original at all costs.. then it's a pay up. that's all good.
but if you want to cruise your Vanagon (and Bays now) at a safe rate of speed with the flow of traffic and for the same or less than a rebuilt T-IV engine.. then a DIY H2o can certainly do that.. be it ABA or Subie 2.2
while i'm sure ziet has been in the 'game' longer than myself.
I doubt he has more parts&motors sitting in his backyard/shop than myself. type-I, type-IIIs, type-IVs, and a slew of WBX & H2o motors each I can go out and touch with my hand to and tell you the story of..
how in tune is he with the costs and plights of the type-IV powerplant.
that just to rebuild one stock specs is fairly equal to more than a DIY engine swap. _________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:54 am Post subject: Re: Air-cooled motor |
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I just wasted two days of my time tearing into a Type IV engine, only to find that it was a dropped seat and a scored cam. I know the plight of those engines. I've built and lived with those engines. I'm no longer a fan of any flat engines, with the exception of BMW R-bikes. Nevertheless, the dude wanted ideas for getting/returning power to the vehicle and engine he already has in hand. I addressed his most prudent course of action in my first post. The fancy-pants bastardization stuff can wait until he's covered those bases. _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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DwarfVader Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2015 Posts: 646 Location: Missoula, MT
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: Air-cooled motor |
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danfromsyr wrote: |
what if for the same $$ as a rebuilt/built up air cooled
you could have
better MPG
more power up hills and general cruising speeds
easier starts and new(er) engine management components
real heat without the fumes and oil residue.
quieter interior for easier conversations and relaxing travel comfort.
cleaner burning smog acceptable engine?
all you have to do is ad a radiator and coolant pipes. that are already made and available to fit your chassis (bay guys need custom/DIY parts).
it's a stubborn no brainer to run the oem engine with it's expensive and unavailable parts. when a Suby 2.2 will slip in like it belongs there.
you can still get the exhaust to make a satisfying boxer style sound..
turn the key and forget kind of travel and roadtrip driving.. focus on the route and not the CHTs or working around that truck in the truck lane you are occupying.. |
man... I bet having time and money are great...
weswsimpson wrote: |
As a new owner of an '80 air-cooled vanagon I'll give you my perspective and experience so far....
Having an 80-83 vanagon is like being an adopted child... we don't quite fit in with the rest of the much larger water-cooled family... there's not a lot of parts and information out there for air-cooled vanagons with most of the development going towards the bigger market of the water-cooled versions.
If I were to do it again... I would get a water-cooled Westfalia instead of an air-cooled ASI Riviera. If i were going to do an engine swap I'd want the water cooled platform to start with.
I used to live in California... I wouldn't attempt to make modifications and pass smog there--or any state for that matter that does emissions testing. I just had to sell my Chevy Express Van because it wasn't worth fixing to pass smog in Chicago. Is your vanagon a Federal or California version, if it's federal you may not be able register in California!
If your hobby is spending time and money fixing cars great--go for it. If you want to spend time with the family going camping you might consider buying a different van with an upgraded engine that someone is selling that has already spent their own time and money sorting out the issues and start enjoying it immediately (don't worry, you'll still have a chance to fix something soon!). I've already spent thousands on my "great deal" vanagon and it's still sitting in my garage. Now I have to keep going (more time, more money) just to get it out of the garage! |
what this man says is the truth... particularly if you want to follow the advice of danfromsyr, as you're inevitably going to need a rad and coolant lines. _________________ - oderint dum metuant -
I'll find my van someday, or it will find me. |
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Wasted youth Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012 Posts: 5134 Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:26 pm Post subject: Re: Air-cooled motor |
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Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
Ugh...YAECT |
What is YAECT? |
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mustard675 Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2016 Posts: 84 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: Air-cooled motor |
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Wasted youth wrote: |
Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
Ugh...YAECT |
What is YAECT? |
Yet Another Engine Change Thread? Maybe. I'm new here. _________________ 1987 VW Vanagon Westfalia
@peanutbutterwestytime |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: Air-cooled motor |
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Yet another engine conversion thread. Around here, the scenario plays out when the OP asks an innocuous question about his/her van, and the usual suspects pile on with their non sequiturs about off brand engines that give them chubbies. WGAS? _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Wasted youth Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012 Posts: 5134 Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:46 pm Post subject: Re: Air-cooled motor |
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Ah... thanks.
Can't imagine anyone wanting a giant lawnmower engine to push a huge loaf of bread around at 75 MPH, but hey... opinions solicited elicit a variety of approaches.
deadwesty wrote: |
... I want something bigger and gives us more power. I research on forums for more information on air cooled motor options but the forums are over flow with conversions and I am not interested in that!
What I would like is to discuss with you guys to see what your suggests, opinions and experience on rebuilding air cooled motors to a bigger size for a heavy loaded westfalia. Budget is not an issue here. What combo, size, cam, FI set up?? |
So, my first error is I thought he said conversations, as in a bunch of long-winded threads... Then, slipping along that slope of misread information, I see him not wanting that "conversation"!
Sheesh! I guess I need to slow down my reading a bit.
Anyway, he said something about complying with California Smog Emissions.
.
deadwesty wrote: |
...But this time I am required to pass smog test (california). How big can I go and still pass the smog test? |
I will bet anyone here my 1973 bus that you won't pass a legitimate smog check with any period VW engine built up with a huge cam, more compression, dual carbs, etc. etc. Remember, smog checks are required for anything 1976 and newer
So... one option I see is the Suby conversion. Just one more opinion, I guess.
FWIW, I found my 1977 2.0 fuel injected California emissions bus ran just as well as my 1987 Westy... and even better uphill. But the '77 had better compression than the '87 does and was lighter than the '87 camper. From what little I've read, people who move into the Subaru seem mighty impressed in the end when it comes to long mountain grades, etc. But I bet a finely tuned, good compression 2.1 WBX would do well. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Dave Wood Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 304 Location: Ohio
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:46 am Post subject: Re: Air-cooled motor |
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I'm a fairly new owner on an 82 air-cooled Vanagon. All my other Vanagons have been water cooled. I'm surprised as to how much I like the simpler air cooled engine. Granted it was newly rebuilt when I bought it so I have not had any issues so far but it runs great and speed/power is not an issue at all. All the engine tins are in place so no worries
I'm missing a couple heater pipes but I don't plan on using this in the winter so heat not a concern. I may invest in a engine temp sensor but right now I don't think I want to complicate things. I'm just cruising along in my summer daily driver _________________ Dave
87 Vanagon GL |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Air-cooled motor |
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djkeev wrote: |
Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
I just wasted two days of my time tearing into a Type IV engine, only to find that it was a dropped seat and a scored cam. I know the plight of those engines. I've built and lived with those engines. I'm no longer a fan of any flat engines, with the exception of BMW R-bikes. Nevertheless, the dude wanted ideas for getting/returning power to the vehicle and engine he already has in hand. I addressed his most prudent course of action in my first post. The fancy-pants bastardization stuff can wait until he's covered those bases. |
Casey, just curious, with you being so vocal against engine conversions, what do you suggest to the owner of this air cooled unit?
Scrap the Van because the engine is shot?
Dave |
I'm not in the least bit opposed to engine conversions. I'm in the middle of one on my own van at this very moment. I've stated repeatedly that technical discussions about engine conversions not associated with a build thread, should have their own technical (sub)section on the site. _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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