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Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild
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kwalker
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:40 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Very late to the game, but just to check, I have a 1964 Type 1 with steering box 113.415.131. It has the single (oil) plug in the top.

I see from cross references that the bearings are the same.
Are the seals, worm shaft, and roller shaft the same? I have read the thread through twice. It appears that it is possibly so but have not found it clearly enough stated (maybe just overly cautious). Anybody confirmed it?

The practical guide says to replace the lid of the box if changing from oil to grease. I see in the thread that OKType3Tim recommends changing to CORNHEADGREASE, but are there any special tricks to deal with the single opening top? I guess another motivation to switch from the SAE90 Hypoid oil is the discussion earlier in this thread that they have changed the formulations of oils and it probably would not be a true SAE 90 anymore. (per some comments RayGreenwood said R.E. oils and greases)
Thanks.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

kwalker wrote:
I have a 1964 Type 1 with steering box 113.415.131. It has the single (oil) plug in the top.


Not sure about your part number that you listed.
To clarify:
111.415.131--- is early generation steering box. Really large fill plug.
311.415.131--- late/current generation steering box. 1 small threaded fill plug.
311.415.131A-- late/current generation steering box. 2 fill holes closed with plastic plugs

311.415.131 and 311.415.131A are internally the same. Seals are the same. The change is that they went from gear lube to semi-liquid grease. In the rebuilds that I have done, I have used Corn Head Grease in both versions.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This picture shows the top of the early (111.415.131) unit:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

(Which, By-the-way, is designed to leak. The surfaces at the blue arrows are a metal-to-metal seal. 60 years since it was manufactured---yes, it is going to leak.)
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kwalker
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Your response prompted me to go back to the garage and take a picture. Because I could look at the picture, I could read it right side up. I see it IS 311. It is the pre-A version with a single filler hole. Hm, so it may have had grease in it. Thank you.
It works great, but I want to acquire and rebuild a spare so I can swap it out and not have my car inoperable for another 5 months while I rebuild the original steering box.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

kwalker wrote:
Your response prompted me to go back to the garage and take a picture. Because I could look at the picture, I could read it right side up. I see it IS 311. It is the pre-A version with a single filler hole. Hm, so it may have had grease in it. Thank you.
It works great, but I want to acquire and rebuild a spare so I can swap it out and not have my car inoperable for another 5 months while I rebuild the original steering box.

Is there anything functionally wrong with your original steering box? I ask because these things are pretty tough so if it hasn't been run without any lube or exposed to the elements so water can intrude it may be good. I have recently made the choice to use my '64 box instead of a new one. I posted the stuff below a couple pages back and it seems like a good time to finish the report.

EVfun wrote:
Before I start tearing into a box I would rather plunk money down for a new or rebuild box. If I go that route I may go with an older work and sector box. It's going in a buggy that will see a couple thousand miles a year.

I'm holding a reproduction box that doesn't say TRW on it and while it feels smooth when turning the rag joint it doesn't feel as smooth when pushing the arm back, notchy feeling especially returning a full right turn (more so than from full left.) I've been looking for info about this boxes, but only a little here or in other threads and not much recent.

I have an older worm and roller box, the kind with the pipe plug on top designed for oil. I will adjust it before rating it but the roller is turning when I turn the rag joint. The strait STP I filled it with a couple years ago seems to have greatly slowed leakage. A little has escaped out the bottom but it's still mostly covering the roller and is nicely drug over and around it when I turn the rag joint.

I am hoping the experience here, this thread in particular, could offer some info about what problems feel like.


I was not comfortable with the new box and that roughness when pushing on the steering arm. It had a really "mushy" feel about the adjustment setting without the super clear center of travel no play zone I expected.

On my old box I loosed the roller adjusting screw then adjusted the worm bearings so it was smooth with no play (a tiny fraction of a turn on that adjustment.) I then put the roller shaft screw back where it was and adjusted from there. I can see there has been some wear in the worm bearings because the rag joint coupler is not quite strait up and down at the center of the no play zone. I can also notice that the adjuster screw is a bit lower than some, but still has threads to use. The no play zone is a full half turn and you can feel in the slight torque it takes to turn that there is a center range of about 45 degrees of no change in torque. The worm is factory machined to be tightest at the center to allow for wear, it has worn in some around the center, perhaps this buggy was towed behind a motorhome at some point in its past.

With the box back on the beam I discovered something else -- it does not leak any oil out of the bottom seal. The leak is entirely from the upper shaft seal, it just fills the little well below it and then runs down if I don't wipe it up. That explains why the box never ran out of oil. I fold up a paper towel and placed it under the worm gear shaft to pick up the oil. It stays there when the steering is turned. If it gets saturated I'll replace it and top off the box with oil.
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kwalker
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

EVfun wrote:

Is there anything functionally wrong with your original steering box? I ask because these things are pretty tough so if it hasn't been run without any lube or exposed to the elements so water can intrude it may be good. I have recently made the choice to use my '64 box instead of a new one. I posted the stuff below a couple pages back and it seems like a good time to finish the report.


My present box is, I believe, the original box for my 64. my car only has 91000 miles on it. (I got it from the original owner and have all of the paperwork for it.) I don't want to tear it up by driving it without servicing it in case it is low on lube (and the lube is probably ancient & needs to be changed anyway), so I plan to pick up a rebuildable box, have at it, and swap it out for my original steering box while I see what the original box needs.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

kwalker wrote:
My present box is, I believe, the original box for my 64. my car only has 91000 miles on it. (I got it from the original owner and have all of the paperwork for it.) I don't want to tear it up by driving it without servicing it in case it is low on lube (and the lube is probably ancient & needs to be changed anyway), so I plan to pick up a rebuildable box, have at it, and swap it out for my original steering box while I see what the original box needs.

It's barely broken in! Smile My suggestion would be to check the oil level, top up as needed, and clean up the area so you can spot any new leak. Next, drive it a few thousand miles and look for leaks. You will know a lot more about its condition.

When you can it wouldn't hurt to pull the box, pull the top, then turn it over and drain it. Clean out the inside, reinstall the cover and fill with oil again. It's low mile original -- I'd keep it full of oil and not start putting in new parts unless needed. Not much matches the quality of the parts VW approved for their assembly line.

Oh, and on any old low mile car check and keep checking the brakes. Unlike grease, brake fluid finds moisture and causes rust. Plus, most any brake problem on pre- 67 cars mean no brakes!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:54 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Moving this to the top. I am in need of a rebuilt factory box. I don't have the time to rebuild it myself. Is there someone that you guys recommend? Like "the steering box guy"?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:00 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Has anyone checked out the Empi steering box. Every picture I see it has a TRW on it.
Question Question Question
Here is a link to an Amazon listing but I have seen this other places.
https://www.amazon.com/EMPI-98-4156-B-STEERING-62-...4356K38NP2
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

ST Dog wrote:
koiboy wrote:
Are the plugs generic nylon plugs?

Does anyone know where to source them in the UK?


Look pretty generic to me.

Search using partnumber 311-415-133
Here's one
https://www.heritagepartscentre.com/uk/311415133-bung-for-steering-box-cover-plate.html


I believe the plastic plugs used on new MC are the same size and fit. I had several spare and they fit.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

djway3474 wrote:
Has anyone checked out the Empi steering box. Every picture I see it has a TRW on it.


On the EMPI web site, they list two different steering boxes with different UPC codes:

https://empius.com/products/trw-varga-steering-box-all-type-1-3-exc-super-beetle/]

https://empius.com/products/trw-varga-steering-box-all-type-1-3-exc-super-beetle-2/

So, an advertisement that only says "EMPI", doesn't tell you enough information---but the price will. The TRW units cost more than the clones.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

The TRW one is bad enough, I can't imagine how much shittier the EMPI one is Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:13 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Currently rebuilding the box in my '63 T1 (box # 311.415.131) as part of a narrowed-beam install. This thread is absolutely invaluable. Read all 22 pages (to date) and I still feel like I can learn more (as one of the hot-rodding greats Gene Winfield says: "Every day is a school day.")

So a few pages back, Tim graciously provided a list for all the rebuild components. I've been able to source both the grease seals and top cover gasket from Wolfsburg West, and the bearings (FAG #508620B) from VW NOS, but my first question for the thread is: where can I source the shims for the bearings? Were those custom made for the limited run of "rebuild kits", or are they pretty much unobtanium at this point?

My box felt "crunchy" and "jagged" whilst turning (most likely due to worn bearings, as per this thread's info) before teardown, but if I can't get the shim kit, would it be safe / wise / prudent to re-use the bearing race that's pressed into the housing? Furthermore, is there any safe way of removing both grease seals without damaging the housing / shims (was probably discussed earlier...can't recall where)?

Any help would greatly be appreciated. A giant THANK YOU goes out to all the major contributors of info for this thread (Tim, Ray, etc. ...you know who you are 😁)
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kwalker
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:03 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

I am wondering if anyone has had luck just removing/replacing the seals without a teardown . My beetle's steering box is still good - low miles - but I want to put on new seals and fill it with corn head grease.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:43 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

kwalker wrote:
I am wondering if anyone has had luck just removing/replacing the seals without a teardown . My beetle's steering box is still good - low miles - but I want to put on new seals and fill it with corn head grease.


Same here. If the OP knows of a way to do this sort of thing, we're all ears. Not trying to half-ass it....just trying to "freshen up" the box and replace the cover gasket (easy enough) and grease seals without damaging the shims....
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

From way back in the beginning:

This is the correct method for the lower seal:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Be careful to catch only the seal, so that you don't put a divot in the housing where the seal sits.

This is one method for the upper/small seal:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You drive the seal, shim, and bearing race all at the same time. You drive the combination of parts "into" the housing. The seal protects the shim from getting beat up to much (if you are careful and gentle).

And BTW, the shim that comes out; is probably the same thickness that you are going to end up with when you go back together.

I made my own copy of VW tool 423. A drift that I use to remove the seal/shim/bearing race combination. And then use to set the new seal in place at the end of reassembly.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I've made several attempts, but have never been successful at pulling the seals without disassembly.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Much appreciated! Off to purchase a new seal puller (last one was stolen.....)!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

I used a Craftsman 17mm socket on an extension as my VW tool 423 and it worked great. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
I used a Craftsman 17mm socket on an extension as my VW tool 423 and it worked great. Very Happy


Yes it does! I remembered to use the "flat" side of the socket (the side that attaches to the wrench) up against the seal. A couple of "spirited" taps, and the seal was loose.

Currently rebuilding two steering boxes: a '63 T1 box (311.415.131) and a '68 T1 box (311.415.131A).

During the disassembly process, I came across something interesting, Whilst removing the locknut for the worm adjusting screw on the '63 box (using a large Crescent wrench...I don't have a 1 5/8" wrench), the screw and nut came out together.

Not quite a problem, but now how do I separate them?

This is what I came up with:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I just so happen to have this Craftsman damaged bolt & nut remover set (Craftsman part # 952061).


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Using the #10 tool, I found it fits perfectly within the recess of the worm adjuster screw:


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Then, I set the #10 tool in a vise, with half of the hex protruding above the jaws:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Ready for liftoff!


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Came off with no issues.

Now, for reassembly I'm sure I could use the same #10 tool as a driver, but using a pipe wrench on it to tighten the screw.

I also came up with this after the fact:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Using a 5/8" bolt (which has a 15/16 hex head) and a double-nut arrangement (top nut doesn't have to be a Nylock) works both as a removal and reassembly tool.

Hope this helps anyone else with this project. Now to order some bearings....
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- Built, not bought.

- Street is neat...support your local street rodders!

1966 L41 113 | 1965 L456 151 | 1963 L380 113 | 1954 L227 113 | 1949 L51 11A
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

When I rebuilt my steering box, I bought this tool from The Dub Shop.

http://thedubshop.com/type-1-steering-box-tools/

I'm in Silicon Valley. (South of the SF Bay) If someone local to me wants to borrow this, let me know.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:20 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Invaluable thread!

Apologies if I missed previous discussion on plugs but I've found that the 5/16 rubber plugs for bottle jacks work fine in the top fill holes.

Here's a pack for about $6 from Amazon, they have a slight wedge that catches the lip inside the fill hole so they stay in place.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Installed in a box that I just rebuilt for my friend Mr. Duncan.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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