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kwalker Samba Member
Joined: November 22, 2007 Posts: 31 Location: Tucson, AZ
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Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:40 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Very late to the game, but just to check, I have a 1964 Type 1 with steering box 113.415.131. It has the single (oil) plug in the top.
I see from cross references that the bearings are the same.
Are the seals, worm shaft, and roller shaft the same? I have read the thread through twice. It appears that it is possibly so but have not found it clearly enough stated (maybe just overly cautious). Anybody confirmed it?
The practical guide says to replace the lid of the box if changing from oil to grease. I see in the thread that OKType3Tim recommends changing to CORNHEADGREASE, but are there any special tricks to deal with the single opening top? I guess another motivation to switch from the SAE90 Hypoid oil is the discussion earlier in this thread that they have changed the formulations of oils and it probably would not be a true SAE 90 anymore. (per some comments RayGreenwood said R.E. oils and greases)
Thanks. |
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OKType3Tim Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2011 Posts: 279 Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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kwalker wrote: |
I have a 1964 Type 1 with steering box 113.415.131. It has the single (oil) plug in the top. |
Not sure about your part number that you listed.
To clarify:
111.415.131--- is early generation steering box. Really large fill plug.
311.415.131--- late/current generation steering box. 1 small threaded fill plug.
311.415.131A-- late/current generation steering box. 2 fill holes closed with plastic plugs
311.415.131 and 311.415.131A are internally the same. Seals are the same. The change is that they went from gear lube to semi-liquid grease. In the rebuilds that I have done, I have used Corn Head Grease in both versions.
This picture shows the top of the early (111.415.131) unit:
(Which, By-the-way, is designed to leak. The surfaces at the blue arrows are a metal-to-metal seal. 60 years since it was manufactured---yes, it is going to leak.) _________________ '69 Squareback restoration
'69 Fastback restoration
'66 Type34 |
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kwalker Samba Member
Joined: November 22, 2007 Posts: 31 Location: Tucson, AZ
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Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Your response prompted me to go back to the garage and take a picture. Because I could look at the picture, I could read it right side up. I see it IS 311. It is the pre-A version with a single filler hole. Hm, so it may have had grease in it. Thank you.
It works great, but I want to acquire and rebuild a spare so I can swap it out and not have my car inoperable for another 5 months while I rebuild the original steering box. |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5446 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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kwalker wrote: |
Your response prompted me to go back to the garage and take a picture. Because I could look at the picture, I could read it right side up. I see it IS 311. It is the pre-A version with a single filler hole. Hm, so it may have had grease in it. Thank you.
It works great, but I want to acquire and rebuild a spare so I can swap it out and not have my car inoperable for another 5 months while I rebuild the original steering box. |
Is there anything functionally wrong with your original steering box? I ask because these things are pretty tough so if it hasn't been run without any lube or exposed to the elements so water can intrude it may be good. I have recently made the choice to use my '64 box instead of a new one. I posted the stuff below a couple pages back and it seems like a good time to finish the report.
EVfun wrote: |
Before I start tearing into a box I would rather plunk money down for a new or rebuild box. If I go that route I may go with an older work and sector box. It's going in a buggy that will see a couple thousand miles a year.
I'm holding a reproduction box that doesn't say TRW on it and while it feels smooth when turning the rag joint it doesn't feel as smooth when pushing the arm back, notchy feeling especially returning a full right turn (more so than from full left.) I've been looking for info about this boxes, but only a little here or in other threads and not much recent.
I have an older worm and roller box, the kind with the pipe plug on top designed for oil. I will adjust it before rating it but the roller is turning when I turn the rag joint. The strait STP I filled it with a couple years ago seems to have greatly slowed leakage. A little has escaped out the bottom but it's still mostly covering the roller and is nicely drug over and around it when I turn the rag joint.
I am hoping the experience here, this thread in particular, could offer some info about what problems feel like. |
I was not comfortable with the new box and that roughness when pushing on the steering arm. It had a really "mushy" feel about the adjustment setting without the super clear center of travel no play zone I expected.
On my old box I loosed the roller adjusting screw then adjusted the worm bearings so it was smooth with no play (a tiny fraction of a turn on that adjustment.) I then put the roller shaft screw back where it was and adjusted from there. I can see there has been some wear in the worm bearings because the rag joint coupler is not quite strait up and down at the center of the no play zone. I can also notice that the adjuster screw is a bit lower than some, but still has threads to use. The no play zone is a full half turn and you can feel in the slight torque it takes to turn that there is a center range of about 45 degrees of no change in torque. The worm is factory machined to be tightest at the center to allow for wear, it has worn in some around the center, perhaps this buggy was towed behind a motorhome at some point in its past.
With the box back on the beam I discovered something else -- it does not leak any oil out of the bottom seal. The leak is entirely from the upper shaft seal, it just fills the little well below it and then runs down if I don't wipe it up. That explains why the box never ran out of oil. I fold up a paper towel and placed it under the worm gear shaft to pick up the oil. It stays there when the steering is turned. If it gets saturated I'll replace it and top off the box with oil. _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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kwalker Samba Member
Joined: November 22, 2007 Posts: 31 Location: Tucson, AZ
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Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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EVfun wrote: |
Is there anything functionally wrong with your original steering box? I ask because these things are pretty tough so if it hasn't been run without any lube or exposed to the elements so water can intrude it may be good. I have recently made the choice to use my '64 box instead of a new one. I posted the stuff below a couple pages back and it seems like a good time to finish the report. |
My present box is, I believe, the original box for my 64. my car only has 91000 miles on it. (I got it from the original owner and have all of the paperwork for it.) I don't want to tear it up by driving it without servicing it in case it is low on lube (and the lube is probably ancient & needs to be changed anyway), so I plan to pick up a rebuildable box, have at it, and swap it out for my original steering box while I see what the original box needs. |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5446 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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kwalker wrote: |
My present box is, I believe, the original box for my 64. my car only has 91000 miles on it. (I got it from the original owner and have all of the paperwork for it.) I don't want to tear it up by driving it without servicing it in case it is low on lube (and the lube is probably ancient & needs to be changed anyway), so I plan to pick up a rebuildable box, have at it, and swap it out for my original steering box while I see what the original box needs. |
It's barely broken in! My suggestion would be to check the oil level, top up as needed, and clean up the area so you can spot any new leak. Next, drive it a few thousand miles and look for leaks. You will know a lot more about its condition.
When you can it wouldn't hurt to pull the box, pull the top, then turn it over and drain it. Clean out the inside, reinstall the cover and fill with oil again. It's low mile original -- I'd keep it full of oil and not start putting in new parts unless needed. Not much matches the quality of the parts VW approved for their assembly line.
Oh, and on any old low mile car check and keep checking the brakes. Unlike grease, brake fluid finds moisture and causes rust. Plus, most any brake problem on pre- 67 cars mean no brakes! _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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60DoubleTurd Type 3 Contributor
Joined: May 24, 2003 Posts: 1925 Location: Ca
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Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:54 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Moving this to the top. I am in need of a rebuilt factory box. I don't have the time to rebuild it myself. Is there someone that you guys recommend? Like "the steering box guy"? _________________ Frank
-------------------------------------
66 L87 Variant Pigalle
SBS #17 |
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djway3474 Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2011 Posts: 2576 Location: The Real NDK So Cal
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Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:00 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Has anyone checked out the Empi steering box. Every picture I see it has a TRW on it.
Here is a link to an Amazon listing but I have seen this other places.
https://www.amazon.com/EMPI-98-4156-B-STEERING-62-...4356K38NP2 |
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bnam Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2006 Posts: 2931 Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
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Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:47 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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I believe the plastic plugs used on new MC are the same size and fit. I had several spare and they fit. _________________ 1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
Click to view image
1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
1952 Citroen TA 11BL |
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OKType3Tim Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2011 Posts: 279 Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5986 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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The TRW one is bad enough, I can't imagine how much shittier the EMPI one is _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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Flat4BRM Samba Member
Joined: February 26, 2018 Posts: 22 Location: California
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Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:13 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Currently rebuilding the box in my '63 T1 (box # 311.415.131) as part of a narrowed-beam install. This thread is absolutely invaluable. Read all 22 pages (to date) and I still feel like I can learn more (as one of the hot-rodding greats Gene Winfield says: "Every day is a school day.")
So a few pages back, Tim graciously provided a list for all the rebuild components. I've been able to source both the grease seals and top cover gasket from Wolfsburg West, and the bearings (FAG #508620B) from VW NOS, but my first question for the thread is: where can I source the shims for the bearings? Were those custom made for the limited run of "rebuild kits", or are they pretty much unobtanium at this point?
My box felt "crunchy" and "jagged" whilst turning (most likely due to worn bearings, as per this thread's info) before teardown, but if I can't get the shim kit, would it be safe / wise / prudent to re-use the bearing race that's pressed into the housing? Furthermore, is there any safe way of removing both grease seals without damaging the housing / shims (was probably discussed earlier...can't recall where)?
Any help would greatly be appreciated. A giant THANK YOU goes out to all the major contributors of info for this thread (Tim, Ray, etc. ...you know who you are 😁) _________________ - Most car projects are like stray dogs..you want to keep them all and never let any of them go.
- Built, not bought.
- Street is neat...support your local street rodders!
1966 L41 113 | 1965 L456 151 | 1963 L380 113 | 1954 L227 113 | 1949 L51 11A |
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kwalker Samba Member
Joined: November 22, 2007 Posts: 31 Location: Tucson, AZ
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Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:03 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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I am wondering if anyone has had luck just removing/replacing the seals without a teardown . My beetle's steering box is still good - low miles - but I want to put on new seals and fill it with corn head grease. |
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Flat4BRM Samba Member
Joined: February 26, 2018 Posts: 22 Location: California
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Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:43 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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kwalker wrote: |
I am wondering if anyone has had luck just removing/replacing the seals without a teardown . My beetle's steering box is still good - low miles - but I want to put on new seals and fill it with corn head grease. |
Same here. If the OP knows of a way to do this sort of thing, we're all ears. Not trying to half-ass it....just trying to "freshen up" the box and replace the cover gasket (easy enough) and grease seals without damaging the shims.... _________________ - Most car projects are like stray dogs..you want to keep them all and never let any of them go.
- Built, not bought.
- Street is neat...support your local street rodders!
1966 L41 113 | 1965 L456 151 | 1963 L380 113 | 1954 L227 113 | 1949 L51 11A |
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OKType3Tim Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2011 Posts: 279 Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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From way back in the beginning:
This is the correct method for the lower seal:
Be careful to catch only the seal, so that you don't put a divot in the housing where the seal sits.
This is one method for the upper/small seal:
You drive the seal, shim, and bearing race all at the same time. You drive the combination of parts "into" the housing. The seal protects the shim from getting beat up to much (if you are careful and gentle).
And BTW, the shim that comes out; is probably the same thickness that you are going to end up with when you go back together.
I made my own copy of VW tool 423. A drift that I use to remove the seal/shim/bearing race combination. And then use to set the new seal in place at the end of reassembly.
I've made several attempts, but have never been successful at pulling the seals without disassembly. _________________ '69 Squareback restoration
'69 Fastback restoration
'66 Type34 |
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Flat4BRM Samba Member
Joined: February 26, 2018 Posts: 22 Location: California
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Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Much appreciated! Off to purchase a new seal puller (last one was stolen.....)! _________________ - Most car projects are like stray dogs..you want to keep them all and never let any of them go.
- Built, not bought.
- Street is neat...support your local street rodders!
1966 L41 113 | 1965 L456 151 | 1963 L380 113 | 1954 L227 113 | 1949 L51 11A |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5986 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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I used a Craftsman 17mm socket on an extension as my VW tool 423 and it worked great. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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Flat4BRM Samba Member
Joined: February 26, 2018 Posts: 22 Location: California
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Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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sjbartnik wrote: |
I used a Craftsman 17mm socket on an extension as my VW tool 423 and it worked great. |
Yes it does! I remembered to use the "flat" side of the socket (the side that attaches to the wrench) up against the seal. A couple of "spirited" taps, and the seal was loose.
Currently rebuilding two steering boxes: a '63 T1 box (311.415.131) and a '68 T1 box (311.415.131A).
During the disassembly process, I came across something interesting, Whilst removing the locknut for the worm adjusting screw on the '63 box (using a large Crescent wrench...I don't have a 1 5/8" wrench), the screw and nut came out together.
Not quite a problem, but now how do I separate them?
This is what I came up with:
I just so happen to have this Craftsman damaged bolt & nut remover set (Craftsman part # 952061).
Using the #10 tool, I found it fits perfectly within the recess of the worm adjuster screw:
Then, I set the #10 tool in a vise, with half of the hex protruding above the jaws:
Ready for liftoff!
Came off with no issues.
Now, for reassembly I'm sure I could use the same #10 tool as a driver, but using a pipe wrench on it to tighten the screw.
I also came up with this after the fact:
Using a 5/8" bolt (which has a 15/16 hex head) and a double-nut arrangement (top nut doesn't have to be a Nylock) works both as a removal and reassembly tool.
Hope this helps anyone else with this project. Now to order some bearings.... _________________ - Most car projects are like stray dogs..you want to keep them all and never let any of them go.
- Built, not bought.
- Street is neat...support your local street rodders!
1966 L41 113 | 1965 L456 151 | 1963 L380 113 | 1954 L227 113 | 1949 L51 11A |
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pitargue Samba Member
Joined: December 24, 2006 Posts: 232
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Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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When I rebuilt my steering box, I bought this tool from The Dub Shop.
http://thedubshop.com/type-1-steering-box-tools/
I'm in Silicon Valley. (South of the SF Bay) If someone local to me wants to borrow this, let me know. |
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TX-73 Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2013 Posts: 1133 Location: Texas
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Invaluable thread!
Apologies if I missed previous discussion on plugs but I've found that the 5/16 rubber plugs for bottle jacks work fine in the top fill holes.
Here's a pack for about $6 from Amazon, they have a slight wedge that catches the lip inside the fill hole so they stay in place.
Installed in a box that I just rebuilt for my friend Mr. Duncan.
_________________ My 1973 Standard Beetle Build SOLD
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