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Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild
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ataraxia
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:43 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
ataraxia wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
Forgive me for any type 3 ignorance. But...this is a every interesting thread to me because I rebuild type 4 steering boxes...very different in layout but with a lot of similarity (same bearings, same grease plugs, unique seals, unique oiling needs and somewhat similar adjusting issues).....

So....those nylon oil fill plugs are largely the same on my boxes. The first type 4 box I rebuilt I used M10 set screws 10mm long.

The problem(s) with tapping and using set screws are:
1. These are cast iron cases. You will need carbide taps...no big deal...with as short of a thread depth you can get away with a TiN coated HSS tap.

Not a problem because the lid is not cast iron.

raygreenwood wrote:
Question:....and this is where I am ignorant. What is the problem with finding shims for this steering box? Is it the thickness or the ID and OD?


I'm receiving NOS shims from Germany in a few weeks - then I'll measure them and source stateside...it's a flat round piece of metal with a hole in it so it shouldn't be hard to find.



Ah...just realized from the pictures....your steering box tops/lids look to be aluminum?...or are they steel/cast steel?

Yes....I find most of the larger bearing dealers that sell ball and roller/needle thrust bearing sets can provide a a huge range of ground and hardened thrust washers in metric and standard sizes with thickness increments in .001". Ray


The tops are aluminum, IIRC.

I'm waiting until I get NOS shims so that I use correct measurements for sourcing - but I wouldn't be surprised if Tim (topic owner) is also sourcing them on his own.
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OKType3Tim Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Ray,

I like your idea of using the button head screw. I had considered the same issue you mentioned of the set screw falling into the inner workings. E.G. If things came loose due to vibration over time.

Finding a solution that has a 1.0 pitch would be better, since the majority of the hole is already drilled out to the proper size for tapping a M10X1.0 thread. (M10X1.5 might be a bit loose when tapped.) What are your sources and do they have a M10X1.0 solution?

As ataraxia noted, the Type 1/Type 3 steering cases lids are either magnesium alloy (early) or aluminum alloy (later). So drilling and tapping will not be as challenging as it was for you on the type 4 steering box.

Now, since the lid is 'not' steel; using a stainless steel screw would be preferable from a long term perspective of keeping the two dissimilar metals from corroding together.

ataraxis and I are both working on the shim issue. My next post will highlight the challenges with the shims
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

So picking up the disassembly:

I cleaned all the parts in my parts washer and remounted the main housing back on the fixture. The arrows point to a couple small nooks where it is easy to not get all the old grease out of:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Then I pulled the old seals out. They were made of the "blue colored" material, that to me indicates they were original.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'm using a standard seal puller, available at about any tool or automotive store. Due to experience, I'm careful to pull on the seal and not dig the tip of the puller into the metal surface that holds the seal. Pull gently on one spot, move over and pull gently a 1/8 inch over, move back to the original spot. Gently, back and forth between two spots and the seal should tip out. Also, a little KROIL squirted around the edge of the seal/metal interface will help loosen the seal up from being stuck to the steel for these 50 or so years. Since I know that I can get replacement seals I didn't have to be careful about not damaging the seals.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


When you get the small seal out, you look in and see the shim,
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Note that this shim is forming the "Bottom" of the seal area. I.E. when the seal is installed, the shim is where the seal bottoms out at. (Which means you can't install this seal until the shim is installed.)

And the shim is backing the upper bearing race which is still in place.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

So how to get the shim out without destroying it (completely):

My first temptation, on a previous unit, was to do this:
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DON'T DO THIS!!!

Here is what you are trying to remove:
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From the outside looking in:
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From the inside looking out:
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Side View:
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The shim is thin and has no structural strength when unsupported, so you are needing to catch the part of the shim that is in contact with the back side of the bearing race. But the bearing race has a chamfer, and the socket is going to fall right into that chamfer. First hammer blow is going to destroy the shim....all the way around, in one blow.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

[Yes, there is a reason I know this.]

So.. you might be tempted to do this, BUT DON'T:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The shim is so thin, that the force of a square edged punch is going to cut right through the shim.

So I used a smaller diameter socket (10mm and 8mm 1/4" drive) with a rounded edge that I could work my way around the shim/race; and hopefully not damage the shim to much.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So after a bit of tapping: I have started to move the race, but I have also clearly created some damage to the shim. If I didn't catch the back of the race perfectly square, the socket would slide off into the middle of the shim, causing the shim material to be stretched.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You can just start to see the back edge of the race beginning the clear the notch in the housing.
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All I can do is continue as best I can until the bearing and shim are out:
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So how bad is the damage:
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Let's see If I can fix the shim. I'll use some body work/metal work techniques. First some gentle taps (hammer and dolly) to repair some of the damage.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Then to shrink the metal that has stretched, a propane torch and quench with cold wet cloth.
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I wish it was better, but it is what it is, and I think it would be serviceable if I can't find a source of shims.
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Um, actually doesn't look to bad from this perspective.
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With everything apart:
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Clean again and then blast it completely clean. I use 40-60 grit glass beads in a small blast cabinet. Now everything has been degreased, paint and rust has been removed.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So now, on to evaluation and figuring out what I have that can be reassembled into a serviceable unit.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

OKType3Tim wrote:
Ray,

I like your idea of using the button head screw. I had considered the same issue you mentioned of the set screw falling into the inner workings. E.G. If things came loose due to vibration over time.

Finding a solution that has a 1.0 pitch would be better, since the majority of the hole is already drilled out to the proper size for tapping a M10X1.0 thread. (M10X1.5 might be a bit loose when tapped.) What are your sources and do they have a M10X1.0 solution?

As ataraxia noted, the Type 1/Type 3 steering cases lids are either magnesium alloy (early) or aluminum alloy (later). So drilling and tapping will not be as challenging as it was for you on the type 4 steering box.

Now, since the lid is 'not' steel; using a stainless steel screw would be preferable from a long term perspective of keeping the two dissimilar metals from corroding together.

ataraxis and I are both working on the shim issue. My next post will highlight the challenges with the shims


Yes.....the issue with my steering box.....really I am not sure if itss cast iron or cast steel.... but due to casting accuracy, machining marks.....which look like cast iron.....and brittleness I found ...and its damn hard......the real problm I had was that just a little too much torque at the constrained angle under the car is really what cracked out the inside lip of the thread.

You guys should have no issues.

I actually found those screws at True-value hardware. It was a weekend and they were all that was open.

The threads were slightly loose.....but with addition of a schnoor washer.....they tightened down well. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

OKType3Tim wrote:
So how to get the shim out without destroying it (completely):

From the outside looking in:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I can tell you that the shim in my steering box was a thickness of 0.2mm (0.0078") and had an O.D. of 31mm (odd really). Since I messed mine up, I can only guess at its I.D. but since the shaft is 16.5mm you need a shim that clears this. I opted to search for shims with an I.D. of 18mm but all I found were 20mm(i.d.) x 30mm(o.d.) shims. I imagine these would work but i can't wait to see what you guys find. I hope some of my information helps in your searches as well.

Again want to thank everyone for there information. Very useful.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


FYI: The number of notches in the shim is supposed to indicate the thickness of the shim.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

So.....just getting this straight in my head.

So although the seal rests/bottoms on the shim...it could just as easily bottom on the bearing race. So...the shim is there....primarily to set depth in the bore of the bearing race?


Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
So.....just getting this straight in my head.

So although the seal rests/bottoms on the shim...it could just as easily bottom on the bearing race. So...the shim is there....primarily to set depth in the bore of the bearing race?


Ray


Yes, the seal could also bottom on the bearing race. In fact, the TRW unit I tore down, did not have any shim, and the seal was bottomed on the bearing race.

Yes, the shim is used to provide fine adjustment for 'centering up' the steering worm shaft by moving the upper bearing race. The "Practical Work" book details the shim selection process:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/practicalwork_steering.php

Also, all that fooling around getting the shim and upper bearing race out would be greatly simplified if I had VW tool 423; which is basically a 21.5mm diameter drift. I'm thinking I need to have my machinist friend make one of those.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/tools/gallerypics/423.jpg
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Um. Strike my previous comment about VW tool 423 (which the bentley manual suggests you use). I went and remeasured. A 21.5mm drift is going to completely destroy the shim and pass right through the middle of the bearing race. The only way VW423 would work, is by turning the shim into a mini puller. Doing this by wedging the tool and shim into the id of the bearing race; thus pulling the bearing race from the housing.

In fact! If you install a bearing into a VW housing without a shim; you will have a very hard time getting it back out. The shim does in fact act as a bit of a ledge for you to tap on as I described above. Without the shim, there isn't enough of the bearing race back exposed such that you can actually get some good force onto it.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Here is something to comment on regarding the search for shims:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


How critical is it to have the exact same 7 shims that VW originally used?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

The one good thing about these shims....is that they are just shims.....spacers. They just need to be uniform. So they are not being used as precision ground flat thrust shims like would run against the balls of the bearing....right?

So assuming that Vw was anal and that .25mm means .25mm...and not its closest inch size....then you can just buy unhardened shims of the neareat thickness higher and lap them to exact thickness on a sheet of glass. Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Correct, they are just spacers used to shift the center point of the worm shaft. This shift is part of the adjustment to make sure that the "free of play range" between the worm and roller, extends equally from turning left, to turning right.

And correct, they do not run against the balls of the bearing.

Pretty sure that they didn't use inch equivalents. But I also think that the thicknesses spec could have been +-.01 mm. My example is that I have a shim that I extracted with practically no damage. It is marked/notched to be a .30 mm shim. But it actually measures .31 mm.

So... maybe US measurement shims are close enough. No lapping required.

And
What if you made the adjustments using a "6-Shim" US set; instead of a "7-Shim" metric set?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

You only use one shim, right? So it doesn't matter if you throw away 5 or 6 extra shims.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Correct, you only use 1 shim.

But it does affect the cost of producing a shim packet.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

while this is all great info..isnt the most common wear item the worm gear in the straight ahead position? It gets hammered flat which renders it useless?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

air-h2o-air wrote:
while this is all great info..isnt the most common wear item the worm gear in the straight ahead position? It gets hammered flat which renders it useless?


Of the six or seven steering boxes I've taken apart the seals are the larger problem. I haven't yet discovered that the worm gear is damaged but I've still got a few to take apart. I'm down to bushings since I've found shims and seals. My bearings, so far, are all okay.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

air-h2o-air wrote:
while this is all great info..isnt the most common wear item the worm gear in the straight ahead position? It gets hammered flat which renders it useless?


I've spent the evening evaluating the 6 units that i have torn down now. I'll get the data posted tomorrow. But I will tell you that of the 6, two have bad Roller shafts. 1 roller shaft has bad needle bearings. 1 roller shaft has a flat spot, and the roller shaft bearing play tolerance is out of spec.

And yes, once the roller/worm interface is worn completely down....you are done.

However, I think I'm learning that the 'common wisdom' of "just crank on down on the adjustment screw"; can lead to premature wear of the roller/worm and bushings if you don't understand the way the unit goes together.

So, my short term goal is to take parts from these 6 units, to get at least two units that have will reasonable life left in the roller/worm.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

air-h2o-air wrote:
while this is all great info..isnt the most common wear item the worm gear in the straight ahead position? It gets hammered flat which renders it useless?


And this is accelerated if you over tighten the top screw.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:07 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

EVALUATION:

I set down with some measuring tools to evaluate the 6 units that I've torn down. I didn't use the electronic calipers much as they tend to have me "Over Measuring", looking for accuracy that isn't actually there.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The parts have been cleaned and sorted:
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I obtained these from various sources, so some had steering worm flanges, but not all:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Some had drop arms, but not all:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


There are 3 late model drop arms, 1 early model drop arm. Here are the differences; late on the left, early on the right:
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Note the markings on the base, "311" vs. "311A"
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The main components laid out:
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Left to Right:
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Note the slight difference in the shape of the main housing casting between the 3 different sources. I think that the markings of "+GF+S" vs. "+W&E" could indicated different OE manufacturers contracted by VW. Maybe someone can provide enlightenment on this regarding whether it means subcontractors, divisions, labor unions, or something else. In any case, the "+GS+F" units come with clearly marked casting dates. (although someone messed up at the foundry and put a year of "19" in the mold on January 22nd.

And, so here are the measurements:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


There has been discussion and concern about how to know if the bushings are good or bad. From this sample, I think the spec on the main housing bushing was an I.D. of 23.85 mm. And none of these units show any appreciable wear on this bushing.

I think the spec on the bushing in the cover lid was 23.9 mm. As noted, wear of +.2 will be enough that you can physically detect the side-to-side play of the shaft in the bushing

The spec on both the top and lower bearing surface of the roller shaft appears to be 23.48 mm. (Although the shaft in unit#1 appears to have made it through QA with a bit of out-of-roundness.

And, as noted in a post above, the real wear point is the roller needle bearing, and the roller surface and worm surface interface. This wear dependent on getting the proper "play" set on
1st: the Steering Worm [where the ball bearings are],
2nd: on the top adjusting screw for the roller worm interface,
and 3rd: the axial play on the roller (needle bearing).

.
.
.
Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy AH yes grasshopper--that is what the Bentley manual says! Laughing
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