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OKType3Tim 
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Joined: April 30, 2011
Posts: 279
Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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 Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:30 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Related to this discussion on greases; here is a picture of a rebuild for ataraxia, showing a housing filled with John Deere Corn Head Grease. It poured in easily enough. And worked the unit back and forth to eliminate air pockets. Next time I will take a video of that process, as the video would show the concept of tackiness that Ray mentioned above.
Once the unit was filled to this point, the gasket and cover were installed and then the unit was topped of with grease prior to installing the plugs. Note, that you don't top it off ALL The Way to the top. Because, as the roller shaft transitions left and right the grease needs room to pile up on either side. I'll also try to get a video of that through the fill holes.
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:18 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
| 140 weight should be like molasses. |
Yes....in the old days...it commonly was like molasses.
Sorry for the length here but hopefully it will be useful.
The problem we are getting into here is that the "viscosity index"....with oils....is not just related to empirical or absolute viscosity.
As oil rheology as become more sophisticated...and you only need to look at the modern multi-grade motor oils to see where modern chemistry can lead.......the viscosity index encompasses several factors....all interrelated (cannot have one without the other)...but are separate factors on their own:
Tack: The tackiness, cling-ability, stringiness or fibrillation of the oil.....you can have an oil with very, very low viscosity and still have a very high tack oil...because of modern chemistry. This factor alone is the one that creates the most heat/friction because it drags on the rotating metal parts moving in the oil
Flow: Probably the most related to absolute viscosity. With modern chemistry....for example...you can have a very high flow rate and low surface tension...in a very high viscosity oil....if the tack rate explained above....is kept low to moderate with additives or by formulation.
Pressure shear thinning: The primary ability of the oil to change (usually drop) viscosity as the oil is subjected to compressive pressure, sliding pressure or high velocity movement of parts through the liquid (think like a mixing paddle on a drill)
Heat thinning: as the oil heats up....the flow, tack and shear rates are modified.
These benefits are how for example...you can have a motor oil like I use in my 2012 Golf...."0-W40"...that has a functional viscosity in the normal temperature range of 40 weight...but has cold flow like a 0 weight. Its done by modifying the tack and shear rate.
Its a low friction oil primarily because its not tacky and does not create a lot of stickiness between the parts that require energy to overcome.
The issues are that once excessive heat is added the "real" or absolute viscosity index can start to drop and in hot weather you have issues.
I have found that many of the gear oils have been reformulated as well. A transmission application may call for a 140 weight because it has very heavy parts, coarse gearing, larger gaps...but is an extreme pressure application. Tack rate here .... is REALLY important so that the oil does not get slung off because most differentials are not pressure fed. Splash oiled.
But the lovely chemical engineers....have been reformulating these gear oils....to be able to have the same tack rate...but....have lower parasitic friction (meaning lower absolute viscosity)...and faster shear thinning (which helps with cold weather flow)...and still have the same level of extreme pressure anti-galling protection.
They are thinking only of the lubricating properties....and not giving any thought to whether the oil may need to be physically thick...to operate in something like an "open gear" application.
Even though the steering gearbox is fully sealed/enclosed......its method of operation is similar to something like an open gear train PTO on a 60 year old tractor or sawmill. In those applications, spur gears are slow moving and may be literally open to air and just have a big tacky puddle of semi-liquid grease/oil that is distributed and redistributed by the moving gears.
Important:
The 140 weight oil you are most likely using is an ISO 460 oil...which is technically a viscosity of 140-146 depending on brand.
These are usually.... actually.... an 85-W140. Look around on line for its qualifications.
If you want to stay with gear oil instead of an avtual "gear grease"....What you need is an ISO 680 gear oil or higher. The viscosity of these are usually still right at 140...but the tack and flow rate is higher...so they "ACT" thicker.
Here is an example of the ISO chart:
What is important between ISO 460, 680 and higher is the right hand column...where it has "cst @ temperature". These are viscosity measurements in centistokes. Note that in absolute viscosity measurement...the ISO 460 is right at 460 cs (centistokes) and the 680 is at 680 cs ...which is how they get their ISO rating #. Look at its viscosity at both 40C...104F and 100C...212F. You can see that its quite a difference in two oils whose BASE viscosity is roughly the same.
Not to get to technical here....but the oils are being measured in centistokes. This is a KINEMATIC measurement. The dynamic measurement number...meaning what does this "thickness" or viscosity compare to...is dynamic viscosity...measured in centipoise.....or "poises"
The formula to convert...so we can look at a chart to see what these two oils ...460 and 680...compare to is:
CentiPoises(cp) = CentiStokes (cSt) x SG (Specific Gravity) or, cP divided by density = cSt
In short...All you need to know is that if one oil has a higher centistokes rating.....it means it has a higher specific gravity or density...and therefore converts out to a higher centipoise rating. It will be a much heavier body oil.
You can see that here. This is a Mobil gear oil chart. Note the red circle thats hows the ISO 460 ...note the comparative viscosity of the ISO 680 and ISO 1000 gear oils. These are what you want as steering gearbox oils.
Even more important....look down at the lower red rectangle box. These are measurements with a Brookfield viscometer. Even those these are the cold viscosity ratings...look at the bad-ass vsicsoity difference in the 460, 680 and 1000.
IMPORTANT:
You cannot thicken your 140 weight gear oil. You would have no idea what to put in that will not become PH reactive and cause corrosion. Its got to be the same lubricating base.
Before I had ever seen items like cornhead grease....I went full synthetic to get away from both long term acid corrosion...and to get awesome lube ability. I use ISO 680 Superlube synthetic gear oil in my steering box....but...I also though it was barely thick enough...mainly because for a long time I could not get ANY new seals for the input shaft so I used a rubber packing.
So..to thicken the synthetic gear oil....I used the superlube synthetic GREASE and mixed it in about 50/50. The grease is the same lubricating oil base. I have had no issues.
Here is the superlube chart. For the type 3 steering box with NEW seals.....the ISO 680 will be just fine. Probably...now that I have finally found seals...it would be fine for mine as well.
What is REALLY important in this chart...is notice the "four ball extreme pressure weld point".....notice that both the ISO 320...which is straight 140 weight...and the ISO 680 and the others...actually have a higher rating than ISO 460.
Thats because...the ISO 460 is a MULTIGRADE AND THE OTHERS ARE SINGLE WEIGHT!  Ray |
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Chochobeef
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Location: Ft. Worth, Texas
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| Agreed. However this was not 140w and is acting more like a 40w. Live and learn so people don't make the same mistake. Will report back once I fill with a true transmission gear oil. |
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ataraxia
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| 140 weight should be like molasses. |
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Chochobeef
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Location: Ft. Worth, Texas
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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I'm going to throw a bit of an update here about the gear oil I bought. It is not acting like 140w gear oil. In fact, it is so thin it was seeping from the top adjusting screw. When I put 80w90 in my trans, it took forever for it to flow. This stuff poured like melted butter from the jug. I will probably have to empty it, and either mix it with grease or go buy some transmission 85w90 oil.
So don't buy what I bought. $20 wasted. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:13 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| OKType3Tim wrote: |
| ataraxia wrote: |
| The housing/oil galley difference could be from the change from gear oil to grease, perhaps? |
Yes, I think so. The early housing creates a "sump" with an outlet to collect and feed gear oil to the top of the lower bushing.
From cleaning out a couple of these housings, I can confirm that regular greases do not flow through the outlet. They have to be forced through. Thus, using an early housing with regular grease, means that the grease has to move down through the opening around the shaft to get to the top of the lower bushing. There is not a lot of clearance to allow for the easy movement of the grease in that area.
So for me, I will stick to using the later housing with the corn head grease; as being the most ideal combination. |
I do not know for type 1 and type 3.....but on type 4...VW used an actual gear "grease"......which is similar to corn head grease but more of a liquid even still. Its actually a thickened gear oil.....simiilar to dedicated PTO unit oils.....yes I know we have been through this already.
Also as noted......a dedicated "gear grease".....is nothing like a bearijg grease in consistency.
Using a 140 weight gear oil.....or higher......is not,far off what I have found gear greases to be. Ray |
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OKType3Tim
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Joined: April 30, 2011
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Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 3:12 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
| The housing/oil galley difference could be from the change from gear oil to grease, perhaps? |
Yes, I think so. The early housing creates a "sump" with an outlet to collect and feed gear oil to the top of the lower bushing.
From cleaning out a couple of these housings, I can confirm that regular greases do not flow through the outlet. They have to be forced through. Thus, using an early housing with regular grease, means that the grease has to move down through the opening around the shaft to get to the top of the lower bushing. There is not a lot of clearance to allow for the easy movement of the grease in that area.
So for me, I will stick to using the later housing with the corn head grease; as being the most ideal combination.
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ataraxia
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| The housing/oil galley difference could be from the change from gear oil to grease, perhaps? |
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OKType3Tim
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Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Update on Versions, Covers, Main Housings:
Chochobeef and Ataraxia have both shown the original version cover, which I did not have a instance of. So, I visited my local VW salvage and picked up a couple of worn out units. The following pictures show the 4 variations:
311.415.131
311.415.131A
311.415.131B
TRW
Note that the .131, and .131A covers use the "short" adjusting screw.
Covers for .131B, and TRW use the "long" adjusting screw.
Also, there is a housing difference. My experience is that the housing on the left, with the web and the oil galley at the bottom of the web; is for the original .131 versions. And the date stamps on the housings also confirm this.
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Chochobeef
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Location: Ft. Worth, Texas
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| Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:03 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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I took lots of pictures which you can see in my gallery. Just wanted to show some of the important ones that I think others will find useful.
Lets look at what I started with: (yikes, no adjustment left and lots of play)
Disgusting:
Filled with sludge:
Some parts I laid out: (All cleaned up of course, except the cover which is broken)
Here is the old style cover as my other one had cracked and I think was causing lots of play: (part# 311.415.131)
27mm sock turned backwards to install large seal:
17mm socket turned backwards to install small seal: (sorry for terrible pic)
I forgot to take a picture of the shim I used. It was the .2mm thick one under the inner bearing race. Hard to install this one. I suggest freezing it and then banging it in quickly.
The outer race for adjusting tension on the worm gear:
Roller gear installed. Had to adjust the outer race on the worm gear to get the correct meshing of the gears. Was trial and error. Don't want it too tight and don't want it too loose. A few taps, check, a few more taps and check. I don't have the tools to measure the tension but you can visually see when the play is gone and the tension is smooth.
Time to fill it up: (I used 140 gear oil found at O'Reillys)
Adjusting screw shim: (2.21mm found in a second gear box, the previous one was 2.17mm)
Here it is filled up to check smoothness: (very smooth)
Completed Steering Box: (Look at all the adjustment I have now*forgot the nut*)
*edit* Purchased Seals at Rocketseals.com for $20 after shipping.
I ordered 24x37x7 Double Lip, and 16x24x7 double lip. Hope this information helps. Still never found a good source for shims. |
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OKType3Tim
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Joined: April 30, 2011
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Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| Chochobeef wrote: |
So how is it coming?
Going to put this box back together using 140w gear oil. I can post some pics if you want in your thread. |
Chochobeef, feel free to post your experience to the thread. I also have another unit to build that will probably use the cover/lid with the single fill hole. I'm considering to use Rays' suggestion of heating the Corn Head Grease to liquid form and pouring it in.
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OKType3Tim
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
In addition, I realized that the shim in this box is the thickest one in the assortment...which may have assisted in the outcome.
At this point, everything is out of the box (worm and roller assembly) and the box is mostly free of grease. Figuring I have nothing to lose on this box, I pulled a deep 16mm socket (closest to the OD of the seal) and my 2# hammer, lined up the socket and gave it one good smack. Out the other end came the seal, shim and bearing race. The shim is perfectly flat and the bearing race is clean.
I got the idea after mulling over the odd construction that has the seal rest on the shim on one side and the bearing race rest on it on the opposite side. I figured that if I used the right sized socket and tapped it just right, it should all come out the other end in okay shape.
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I duplicated ataraxia's method on shims that are .30 (2 notches) and .35 mm thick (3 notches). My experience is that it is hard to get the .20 mm thick shim(which is the one I documented earlier in the thread) and the .25 mm thick shim out without damage.
To summarize: .30 thick shims and above, can probably be removed using the larger diameter socket method show in this picture. .20 and .25 mm shims you have to take them out using the method described earlier in the thread.
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:47 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| Chochobeef wrote: |
So how is it coming?
I found out that I cannot use the top to my steering box. The casting on the circle ridge part cracked and was moving a bunch. I'm sure this was part of my boxes problem along with worn out seals. I have since gone to the earlier box cover that uses a single square head screw as the fill point. I don't have the part number but basically its the same part number without the letter option at the end.
Going to put this box back together using 140w gear oil. I can post some pics if you want in your thread. |
In Fort Worth...you "should" have very little trouble with 140 weight. I first used 140 weight to slow the leakage on my boxes before I went to thickened dedicated "gear grease"....when I lived in Dallas.
Even in the few times we got down in the 30's in Dallas...140 weight was fine.
However for others reading this....its very tacky when you get below 30F. You may have some issues in Northern climates. Ray |
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Chochobeef
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Location: Ft. Worth, Texas
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:37 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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So how is it coming?
I found out that I cannot use the top to my steering box. The casting on the circle ridge part cracked and was moving a bunch. I'm sure this was part of my boxes problem along with worn out seals. I have since gone to the earlier box cover that uses a single square head screw as the fill point. I don't have the part number but basically its the same part number without the letter option at the end.
Going to put this box back together using 140w gear oil. I can post some pics if you want in your thread. |
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:59 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| Clatter wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
By the way...steel does not work harden.....unless you are literally deforming it...either bending, squeezing, stamping, flexing or.... |
I'm a bit confused...
When the steering worm gets worn, there is a bit of a groove in it,
hence the need to tighten the adjustment.
This would not be considered deforming it - i.e. squeezing or stamping 
It's not metal wearing away - there is a roller.
The worm gear wearing in, seems, to my learning, a good example of an environment where work hardening would take place..
Not trying to argue or be a smart-ass, just not understanding..
FWIW-
An oil pressure sender fits in the hole for adjusting the box.
You then just grab it with a wrench/socket..
Not that I don't love me some pretty new tools... |
Thats wear....not work hardening.
Actual deforming....is done for example.....by striking it repeatedly with a ball peen hammer to make that deformation. Big difference.
If you are taking a steering work and subje ting it to so much load.....TONS that it is BENDING it.....warping it.....that can work harden it to some extent. But the steering box has neither heat or haeavy deflection loads.
Work hardening for steel.....for example......can be done by a blacksmith with no heat by tqking a piece of steel and pounding it flat, folding it over....pounding it flat again.....deforming it....compacting it.
Shot peening connecting rods is another example of this. Yes it stress relives the surface but also compacts the surtace making it tougher. ....and is a work hardening process. Ray |
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Clatter
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
By the way...steel does not work harden.....unless you are literally deforming it...either bending, squeezing, stamping, flexing or.... |
I'm a bit confused...
When the steering worm gets worn, there is a bit of a groove in it,
hence the need to tighten the adjustment.
This would not be considered deforming it - i.e. squeezing or stamping
It's not metal wearing away - there is a roller.
The worm gear wearing in, seems, to my learning, a good example of an environment where work hardening would take place..
Not trying to argue or be a smart-ass, just not understanding..
FWIW-
An oil pressure sender fits in the hole for adjusting the box.
You then just grab it with a wrench/socket..
Not that I don't love me some pretty new tools...
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| OKType3Tim wrote: |
| Clatter wrote: |
| OKType3Tim wrote: |
I'm still considering that I might use the roller and worm from the TRW unit for this one.
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What of metallurgical sins, though??
Even if it measures to spec,
How to know it's not made of dried toothpaste..?
IMHO, OG German parts, already work-hardened, will not disappoint.
As long as they can be adjusted in... |
A machinist friend of mine has access to a Rockwell Hardness Tester. We tested a used VW worm shaft, and the new TRW worm shaft. Both shafts measured a Rockwell Hardness of 87C. |
By the way...steel does not work harden.....unless you are literally deforming it...either bending, squeezing, stamping, flexing or....a slower method but it,works....heat cycling it at a high level.....like a cylinder head or exhaust system.
The steering box parts would rarely see enough actual flexing deformation to work harden them.....so asong as the steel is not made of cheese (and it still could be crappy steel)....and its surface hardening properly (as you have found).....and if its machined properly (probably the main risk here).....it should be good. Ray |
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OKType3Tim
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Posts: 279
Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| Clatter wrote: |
| OKType3Tim wrote: |
I'm still considering that I might use the roller and worm from the TRW unit for this one.
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What of metallurgical sins, though??
Even if it measures to spec,
How to know it's not made of dried toothpaste..?
IMHO, OG German parts, already work-hardened, will not disappoint.
As long as they can be adjusted in... |
A machinist friend of mine has access to a Rockwell Hardness Tester. We tested a used VW worm shaft, and the new TRW worm shaft. Both shafts measured a Rockwell Hardness of 87C.
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OKType3Tim
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:50 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Yes, I also was successful at getting a .30mm shim out without damage. But I deformed the .20mm and .25mm shims as noted earlier. (Using both your technique and the technique I described.) So it appears that damage to the shims could be less of an issue provided it is thicker. Once you've cleaned out most of the grease, you can get some idea of how thick it is just by visual inspection prior to attempting the removal.
Also the technique is affected by tightness of the fit between the bearing race and the cavity it sits in. The TRW, the race just fell out. Several of the VW units, the fit was right firm. And a couple of the VW units it was really, really tight.
Per the "Notes On the Practical Work, Steering" document, the shim in your picture should be a .45mm shim. Correct?
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ataraxia
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Tonight, I decided to spend a little time trying to figure out the future of a few specimen from my steering box collection. I took one of the partially disassembled boxes and see if I could get the small seal and shim out without damaging the shim.
Two things came into play: This was the first steering box I tried to take apart - I did a decent amount of damage to some critical parts in the process but I wasn't terribly worried about it since I have several more. I considered it part of my learning process. In addition, I realized that the shim in this box is the thickest one in the assortment...which may have assisted in the outcome.
At this point, everything is out of the box (worm and roller assembly) and the box is mostly free of grease. Figuring I have nothing to lose on this box, I pulled a deep 16mm socket (closest to the OD of the seal) and my 2# hammer, lined up the socket and gave it one good smack. Out the other end came the seal, shim and bearing race. The shim is perfectly flat and the bearing race is clean.
I got the idea after mulling over the odd construction that has the seal rest on the shim on one side and the bearing race rest on it on the opposite side. I figured that if I used the right sized socket and tapped it just right, it should all come out the other end in okay shape.
I'm not in any way saying that this is the best method for removing these parts but it was very successful. I've got another beat up steering box so I might try it again just to see how consistent the results are after the 'beginners luck'. |
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