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Flat4BRM
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Joined: February 26, 2018
Posts: 22
Location: California
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 Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:13 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Currently rebuilding the box in my '63 T1 (box # 311.415.131) as part of a narrowed-beam install. This thread is absolutely invaluable. Read all 22 pages (to date) and I still feel like I can learn more (as one of the hot-rodding greats Gene Winfield says: "Every day is a school day.")
So a few pages back, Tim graciously provided a list for all the rebuild components. I've been able to source both the grease seals and top cover gasket from Wolfsburg West, and the bearings (FAG #508620B) from VW NOS, but my first question for the thread is: where can I source the shims for the bearings? Were those custom made for the limited run of "rebuild kits", or are they pretty much unobtanium at this point?
My box felt "crunchy" and "jagged" whilst turning (most likely due to worn bearings, as per this thread's info) before teardown, but if I can't get the shim kit, would it be safe / wise / prudent to re-use the bearing race that's pressed into the housing? Furthermore, is there any safe way of removing both grease seals without damaging the housing / shims (was probably discussed earlier...can't recall where)?
Any help would greatly be appreciated. A giant THANK YOU goes out to all the major contributors of info for this thread (Tim, Ray, etc. ...you know who you are 😁)
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1966 L41 113 | 1965 L456 151 | 1963 L380 113 | 1954 L227 113 | 1949 L51 11A |
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sjbartnik
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Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5998
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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The TRW one is bad enough, I can't imagine how much shittier the EMPI one is 
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1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
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OKType3Tim 
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Joined: April 30, 2011
Posts: 279
Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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bnam
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Joined: July 02, 2006
Posts: 2936
Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:47 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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I believe the plastic plugs used on new MC are the same size and fit. I had several spare and they fit.
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1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
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djway3474
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Joined: August 19, 2011
Posts: 2582
Location: The Real NDK So Cal
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:00 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Has anyone checked out the Empi steering box. Every picture I see it has a TRW on it.
Here is a link to an Amazon listing but I have seen this other places.
https://www.amazon.com/EMPI-98-4156-B-STEERING-62-...4356K38NP2 |
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60DoubleTurd
Type 3 Contributor
Joined: May 24, 2003
Posts: 1925
Location: Ca
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:54 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Moving this to the top. I am in need of a rebuilt factory box. I don't have the time to rebuild it myself. Is there someone that you guys recommend? Like "the steering box guy"?
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Frank
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66 L87 Variant Pigalle
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EVfun
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Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5481
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| kwalker wrote: |
| My present box is, I believe, the original box for my 64. my car only has 91000 miles on it. (I got it from the original owner and have all of the paperwork for it.) I don't want to tear it up by driving it without servicing it in case it is low on lube (and the lube is probably ancient & needs to be changed anyway), so I plan to pick up a rebuildable box, have at it, and swap it out for my original steering box while I see what the original box needs. |
It's barely broken in!  My suggestion would be to check the oil level, top up as needed, and clean up the area so you can spot any new leak. Next, drive it a few thousand miles and look for leaks. You will know a lot more about its condition.
When you can it wouldn't hurt to pull the box, pull the top, then turn it over and drain it. Clean out the inside, reinstall the cover and fill with oil again. It's low mile original -- I'd keep it full of oil and not start putting in new parts unless needed. Not much matches the quality of the parts VW approved for their assembly line.
Oh, and on any old low mile car check and keep checking the brakes. Unlike grease, brake fluid finds moisture and causes rust. Plus, most any brake problem on pre- 67 cars mean no brakes!
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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kwalker
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Joined: November 22, 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Tucson, AZ
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| EVfun wrote: |
Is there anything functionally wrong with your original steering box? I ask because these things are pretty tough so if it hasn't been run without any lube or exposed to the elements so water can intrude it may be good. I have recently made the choice to use my '64 box instead of a new one. I posted the stuff below a couple pages back and it seems like a good time to finish the report. |
My present box is, I believe, the original box for my 64. my car only has 91000 miles on it. (I got it from the original owner and have all of the paperwork for it.) I don't want to tear it up by driving it without servicing it in case it is low on lube (and the lube is probably ancient & needs to be changed anyway), so I plan to pick up a rebuildable box, have at it, and swap it out for my original steering box while I see what the original box needs. |
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EVfun
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Posts: 5481
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| kwalker wrote: |
Your response prompted me to go back to the garage and take a picture. Because I could look at the picture, I could read it right side up. I see it IS 311. It is the pre-A version with a single filler hole. Hm, so it may have had grease in it. Thank you.
It works great, but I want to acquire and rebuild a spare so I can swap it out and not have my car inoperable for another 5 months while I rebuild the original steering box. |
Is there anything functionally wrong with your original steering box? I ask because these things are pretty tough so if it hasn't been run without any lube or exposed to the elements so water can intrude it may be good. I have recently made the choice to use my '64 box instead of a new one. I posted the stuff below a couple pages back and it seems like a good time to finish the report.
| EVfun wrote: |
Before I start tearing into a box I would rather plunk money down for a new or rebuild box. If I go that route I may go with an older work and sector box. It's going in a buggy that will see a couple thousand miles a year.
I'm holding a reproduction box that doesn't say TRW on it and while it feels smooth when turning the rag joint it doesn't feel as smooth when pushing the arm back, notchy feeling especially returning a full right turn (more so than from full left.) I've been looking for info about this boxes, but only a little here or in other threads and not much recent.
I have an older worm and roller box, the kind with the pipe plug on top designed for oil. I will adjust it before rating it but the roller is turning when I turn the rag joint. The strait STP I filled it with a couple years ago seems to have greatly slowed leakage. A little has escaped out the bottom but it's still mostly covering the roller and is nicely drug over and around it when I turn the rag joint.
I am hoping the experience here, this thread in particular, could offer some info about what problems feel like. |
I was not comfortable with the new box and that roughness when pushing on the steering arm. It had a really "mushy" feel about the adjustment setting without the super clear center of travel no play zone I expected.
On my old box I loosed the roller adjusting screw then adjusted the worm bearings so it was smooth with no play (a tiny fraction of a turn on that adjustment.) I then put the roller shaft screw back where it was and adjusted from there. I can see there has been some wear in the worm bearings because the rag joint coupler is not quite strait up and down at the center of the no play zone. I can also notice that the adjuster screw is a bit lower than some, but still has threads to use. The no play zone is a full half turn and you can feel in the slight torque it takes to turn that there is a center range of about 45 degrees of no change in torque. The worm is factory machined to be tightest at the center to allow for wear, it has worn in some around the center, perhaps this buggy was towed behind a motorhome at some point in its past.
With the box back on the beam I discovered something else -- it does not leak any oil out of the bottom seal. The leak is entirely from the upper shaft seal, it just fills the little well below it and then runs down if I don't wipe it up. That explains why the box never ran out of oil. I fold up a paper towel and placed it under the worm gear shaft to pick up the oil. It stays there when the steering is turned. If it gets saturated I'll replace it and top off the box with oil.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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kwalker
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Joined: November 22, 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Tucson, AZ
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Your response prompted me to go back to the garage and take a picture. Because I could look at the picture, I could read it right side up. I see it IS 311. It is the pre-A version with a single filler hole. Hm, so it may have had grease in it. Thank you.
It works great, but I want to acquire and rebuild a spare so I can swap it out and not have my car inoperable for another 5 months while I rebuild the original steering box. |
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OKType3Tim
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Joined: April 30, 2011
Posts: 279
Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| kwalker wrote: |
| I have a 1964 Type 1 with steering box 113.415.131. It has the single (oil) plug in the top. |
Not sure about your part number that you listed.
To clarify:
111.415.131--- is early generation steering box. Really large fill plug.
311.415.131--- late/current generation steering box. 1 small threaded fill plug.
311.415.131A-- late/current generation steering box. 2 fill holes closed with plastic plugs
311.415.131 and 311.415.131A are internally the same. Seals are the same. The change is that they went from gear lube to semi-liquid grease. In the rebuilds that I have done, I have used Corn Head Grease in both versions.
This picture shows the top of the early (111.415.131) unit:
(Which, By-the-way, is designed to leak. The surfaces at the blue arrows are a metal-to-metal seal. 60 years since it was manufactured---yes, it is going to leak.)
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kwalker
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Joined: November 22, 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Tucson, AZ
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:40 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Very late to the game, but just to check, I have a 1964 Type 1 with steering box 113.415.131. It has the single (oil) plug in the top.
I see from cross references that the bearings are the same.
Are the seals, worm shaft, and roller shaft the same? I have read the thread through twice. It appears that it is possibly so but have not found it clearly enough stated (maybe just overly cautious). Anybody confirmed it?
The practical guide says to replace the lid of the box if changing from oil to grease. I see in the thread that OKType3Tim recommends changing to CORNHEADGREASE, but are there any special tricks to deal with the single opening top? I guess another motivation to switch from the SAE90 Hypoid oil is the discussion earlier in this thread that they have changed the formulations of oils and it probably would not be a true SAE 90 anymore. (per some comments RayGreenwood said R.E. oils and greases)
Thanks. |
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OKType3Tim
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Joined: April 30, 2011
Posts: 279
Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:47 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| EVfun wrote: |
| It isn't quite right, why is the steering coupler clamp bolt spot a long flat on the shaft? Stock was a rounded notch for the bolt that clamps the steering coupler onto the shaft. Replacement boxes seem to have that long clamp area too. |
Your observation of the difference is correct.
So, this allows for adjustability of the coupler flange along the axis of the worm shaft. Thus, allowing a single worm shaft part to cover vehicles that have slightly different dimensions for steering column length in relation to the actual location of the front beam. I.E. The manufacturing fit-up of our vehicles isn't guaranteed to be that precise year-to-year, country-to-country. Not to mention 60-70 years of previous owners and repair folks working on your vehicle.
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'69 Squareback restoration
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EVfun
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Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5481
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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I did not realize you could just get that part. It isn't quite right, why is the steering coupler clamp bolt spot a long flat on the shaft? Stock was a rounded notch for the bolt that clamps the steering coupler onto the shaft. Replacement boxes seem to have that long clamp area too. Still, for a normal street driven restore that should be fine.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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DeltaBravo
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OKType3Tim
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Joined: April 30, 2011
Posts: 279
Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:22 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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I guess I'm missing something as to why go to a lot of machining effort when you can just to this:
https://socalautoparts.com/product/worm-drive-roller-style-for-steering-box/
for $35 plus shipping. The worm shaft you can buy for $35 is just fine.
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DeltaBravo
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Joined: February 29, 2016
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Location: Long Beach, CA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:49 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| DeltaBravo wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Another idea... Can the bearing races be turned off and new bearings with races be installed? That could avoid changing the heat treatment of the worm gear. |
| Quote: |
| Can you run a weld over the shaft and then put it on a lathe to take it back down to spec? |
I'm not a machinist but I'm sure both can be done. But at what cost? If I had the knowledge and means, I could justify doing something like this. But since I don't have either the knowledge or means, I sure this process would cost a bit. But I don't know that either...
Maybe it would be $100.... but prolly more like $300.
Any machinist out there that could shed some light? In the mean time, I'm going to ask my local guy and report back. |
Well...
The local Machinist I've used for several different types of engine with great results unfortunately does not have the capability to create the radius needed at both ends of the shaft to support the roller bearings.
There was another place mentioned that might be able to do it, but I've been warned that it might be very expensive. I will reach out to them and confirm.
In the mean time, I put mine back together with all the original parts (replacing only the seals and grease) with the CornHead stuff... And well... it seems ok right now. It moves a lot better. I know that isn't a "scientific" test result but it does feel better. So, I am going to use it for now.
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673255&highlight=
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=674097&highlight=
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cellobus1
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Location: East Tennessee
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Currently rehabbing a Thing box. I discovered that the adjusting screw with the huge lock ring around it can be removed with the same chainsaw wrench that some are using to install TSIIs in FI Type IV motors. The one that looks like a corn-cob pipe. The exterior of the 19 mm (spark plug) side was for me, at least, a perfect fit in the screw. A couple taps on the wrench shaft with a hammer and off she goes.
Thank you for a great thread!
Andy
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DeltaBravo
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EVfun
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Another idea... Can the bearing races be turned off and new bearings with races be installed? That could avoid changing the heat treatment of the worm gear.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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