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Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild
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EVfun
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

kwalker wrote:
My present box is, I believe, the original box for my 64. my car only has 91000 miles on it. (I got it from the original owner and have all of the paperwork for it.) I don't want to tear it up by driving it without servicing it in case it is low on lube (and the lube is probably ancient & needs to be changed anyway), so I plan to pick up a rebuildable box, have at it, and swap it out for my original steering box while I see what the original box needs.

It's barely broken in! Smile My suggestion would be to check the oil level, top up as needed, and clean up the area so you can spot any new leak. Next, drive it a few thousand miles and look for leaks. You will know a lot more about its condition.

When you can it wouldn't hurt to pull the box, pull the top, then turn it over and drain it. Clean out the inside, reinstall the cover and fill with oil again. It's low mile original -- I'd keep it full of oil and not start putting in new parts unless needed. Not much matches the quality of the parts VW approved for their assembly line.

Oh, and on any old low mile car check and keep checking the brakes. Unlike grease, brake fluid finds moisture and causes rust. Plus, most any brake problem on pre- 67 cars mean no brakes!
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

EVfun wrote:

Is there anything functionally wrong with your original steering box? I ask because these things are pretty tough so if it hasn't been run without any lube or exposed to the elements so water can intrude it may be good. I have recently made the choice to use my '64 box instead of a new one. I posted the stuff below a couple pages back and it seems like a good time to finish the report.


My present box is, I believe, the original box for my 64. my car only has 91000 miles on it. (I got it from the original owner and have all of the paperwork for it.) I don't want to tear it up by driving it without servicing it in case it is low on lube (and the lube is probably ancient & needs to be changed anyway), so I plan to pick up a rebuildable box, have at it, and swap it out for my original steering box while I see what the original box needs.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

kwalker wrote:
Your response prompted me to go back to the garage and take a picture. Because I could look at the picture, I could read it right side up. I see it IS 311. It is the pre-A version with a single filler hole. Hm, so it may have had grease in it. Thank you.
It works great, but I want to acquire and rebuild a spare so I can swap it out and not have my car inoperable for another 5 months while I rebuild the original steering box.

Is there anything functionally wrong with your original steering box? I ask because these things are pretty tough so if it hasn't been run without any lube or exposed to the elements so water can intrude it may be good. I have recently made the choice to use my '64 box instead of a new one. I posted the stuff below a couple pages back and it seems like a good time to finish the report.

EVfun wrote:
Before I start tearing into a box I would rather plunk money down for a new or rebuild box. If I go that route I may go with an older work and sector box. It's going in a buggy that will see a couple thousand miles a year.

I'm holding a reproduction box that doesn't say TRW on it and while it feels smooth when turning the rag joint it doesn't feel as smooth when pushing the arm back, notchy feeling especially returning a full right turn (more so than from full left.) I've been looking for info about this boxes, but only a little here or in other threads and not much recent.

I have an older worm and roller box, the kind with the pipe plug on top designed for oil. I will adjust it before rating it but the roller is turning when I turn the rag joint. The strait STP I filled it with a couple years ago seems to have greatly slowed leakage. A little has escaped out the bottom but it's still mostly covering the roller and is nicely drug over and around it when I turn the rag joint.

I am hoping the experience here, this thread in particular, could offer some info about what problems feel like.


I was not comfortable with the new box and that roughness when pushing on the steering arm. It had a really "mushy" feel about the adjustment setting without the super clear center of travel no play zone I expected.

On my old box I loosed the roller adjusting screw then adjusted the worm bearings so it was smooth with no play (a tiny fraction of a turn on that adjustment.) I then put the roller shaft screw back where it was and adjusted from there. I can see there has been some wear in the worm bearings because the rag joint coupler is not quite strait up and down at the center of the no play zone. I can also notice that the adjuster screw is a bit lower than some, but still has threads to use. The no play zone is a full half turn and you can feel in the slight torque it takes to turn that there is a center range of about 45 degrees of no change in torque. The worm is factory machined to be tightest at the center to allow for wear, it has worn in some around the center, perhaps this buggy was towed behind a motorhome at some point in its past.

With the box back on the beam I discovered something else -- it does not leak any oil out of the bottom seal. The leak is entirely from the upper shaft seal, it just fills the little well below it and then runs down if I don't wipe it up. That explains why the box never ran out of oil. I fold up a paper towel and placed it under the worm gear shaft to pick up the oil. It stays there when the steering is turned. If it gets saturated I'll replace it and top off the box with oil.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Your response prompted me to go back to the garage and take a picture. Because I could look at the picture, I could read it right side up. I see it IS 311. It is the pre-A version with a single filler hole. Hm, so it may have had grease in it. Thank you.
It works great, but I want to acquire and rebuild a spare so I can swap it out and not have my car inoperable for another 5 months while I rebuild the original steering box.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

kwalker wrote:
I have a 1964 Type 1 with steering box 113.415.131. It has the single (oil) plug in the top.


Not sure about your part number that you listed.
To clarify:
111.415.131--- is early generation steering box. Really large fill plug.
311.415.131--- late/current generation steering box. 1 small threaded fill plug.
311.415.131A-- late/current generation steering box. 2 fill holes closed with plastic plugs

311.415.131 and 311.415.131A are internally the same. Seals are the same. The change is that they went from gear lube to semi-liquid grease. In the rebuilds that I have done, I have used Corn Head Grease in both versions.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This picture shows the top of the early (111.415.131) unit:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

(Which, By-the-way, is designed to leak. The surfaces at the blue arrows are a metal-to-metal seal. 60 years since it was manufactured---yes, it is going to leak.)
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:40 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Very late to the game, but just to check, I have a 1964 Type 1 with steering box 113.415.131. It has the single (oil) plug in the top.

I see from cross references that the bearings are the same.
Are the seals, worm shaft, and roller shaft the same? I have read the thread through twice. It appears that it is possibly so but have not found it clearly enough stated (maybe just overly cautious). Anybody confirmed it?

The practical guide says to replace the lid of the box if changing from oil to grease. I see in the thread that OKType3Tim recommends changing to CORNHEADGREASE, but are there any special tricks to deal with the single opening top? I guess another motivation to switch from the SAE90 Hypoid oil is the discussion earlier in this thread that they have changed the formulations of oils and it probably would not be a true SAE 90 anymore. (per some comments RayGreenwood said R.E. oils and greases)
Thanks.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:47 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

EVfun wrote:
It isn't quite right, why is the steering coupler clamp bolt spot a long flat on the shaft? Stock was a rounded notch for the bolt that clamps the steering coupler onto the shaft. Replacement boxes seem to have that long clamp area too.


Your observation of the difference is correct.
So, this allows for adjustability of the coupler flange along the axis of the worm shaft. Thus, allowing a single worm shaft part to cover vehicles that have slightly different dimensions for steering column length in relation to the actual location of the front beam. I.E. The manufacturing fit-up of our vehicles isn't guaranteed to be that precise year-to-year, country-to-country. Not to mention 60-70 years of previous owners and repair folks working on your vehicle.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

OKType3Tim wrote:
I guess I'm missing something as to why go to a lot of machining effort when you can just to this:
https://socalautoparts.com/product/worm-drive-roller-style-for-steering-box/
for $35 plus shipping. The worm shaft you can buy for $35 is just fine.

I did not realize you could just get that part. It isn't quite right, why is the steering coupler clamp bolt spot a long flat on the shaft? Stock was a rounded notch for the bolt that clamps the steering coupler onto the shaft. Replacement boxes seem to have that long clamp area too. Still, for a normal street driven restore that should be fine.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

OKType3Tim wrote:
I guess I'm missing something as to why go to a lot of machining effort when you can just to this:
https://socalautoparts.com/product/worm-drive-roller-style-for-steering-box/
for $35 plus shipping. The worm shaft you can buy for $35 is just fine.


The reason mentioned earlier;

The original part (although it seemed to last a long time) was not designed to withstand the pressures of the roller bearings. It seems these parts are not harden (or not hardened enough). The surface area breaks down over time and becomes pitted due to the harder material of the bearing rolling over the softer material of the shaft.

so the question isn't "where" to get a replacement part...but more of "should" I get the replacement part? Or should I repair/engineer a better one?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:22 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

I guess I'm missing something as to why go to a lot of machining effort when you can just to this:
https://socalautoparts.com/product/worm-drive-roller-style-for-steering-box/
for $35 plus shipping. The worm shaft you can buy for $35 is just fine.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:49 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

DeltaBravo wrote:
Quote:
Another idea... Can the bearing races be turned off and new bearings with races be installed? That could avoid changing the heat treatment of the worm gear.

Quote:
Can you run a weld over the shaft and then put it on a lathe to take it back down to spec?


I'm not a machinist but I'm sure both can be done. But at what cost? If I had the knowledge and means, I could justify doing something like this. But since I don't have either the knowledge or means, I sure this process would cost a bit. But I don't know that either...

Maybe it would be $100.... but prolly more like $300.

Any machinist out there that could shed some light? In the mean time, I'm going to ask my local guy and report back.


Well...

The local Machinist I've used for several different types of engine with great results unfortunately does not have the capability to create the radius needed at both ends of the shaft to support the roller bearings.

There was another place mentioned that might be able to do it, but I've been warned that it might be very expensive. I will reach out to them and confirm.

In the mean time, I put mine back together with all the original parts (replacing only the seals and grease) with the CornHead stuff... And well... it seems ok right now. It moves a lot better. I know that isn't a "scientific" test result but it does feel better. So, I am going to use it for now.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Currently rehabbing a Thing box. I discovered that the adjusting screw with the huge lock ring around it can be removed with the same chainsaw wrench that some are using to install TSIIs in FI Type IV motors. The one that looks like a corn-cob pipe. The exterior of the 19 mm (spark plug) side was for me, at least, a perfect fit in the screw. A couple taps on the wrench shaft with a hammer and off she goes.

Thank you for a great thread!
Andy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Quote:
Another idea... Can the bearing races be turned off and new bearings with races be installed? That could avoid changing the heat treatment of the worm gear.

Quote:
Can you run a weld over the shaft and then put it on a lathe to take it back down to spec?


I'm not a machinist but I'm sure both can be done. But at what cost? If I had the knowledge and means, I could justify doing something like this. But since I don't have either the knowledge or means, I sure this process would cost a bit. But I don't know that either...

Maybe it would be $100.... but prolly more like $300.

Any machinist out there that could shed some light? In the mean time, I'm going to ask my local guy and report back.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Another idea... Can the bearing races be turned off and new bearings with races be installed? That could avoid changing the heat treatment of the worm gear.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Can you run a weld over the shaft and then put it on a lathe to take it back down to spec?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:12 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Cptn. Calzone wrote:
turn them into a stroker crank


Laughing Laughing Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:55 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

I am of the opinion that if we can take the old cranks and build them up with hard Weld and turn them into a stroker crank and then cut them back down the technology does exist although it would be on a radius a bit more tricky to cut back and it would be cutting hard well to
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:21 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

I agree that this is a bearing surface issue.

Which leads me into the next discussion of what to do...

I know there is are links with in this thread to find NOS parts and such. But, if the original parts wasn't holding up to the task, then NOS parts are not going to hold up either.

Maybe get an NOS shaft and have it hardened at the bearing surfaces? idk...what do you guys think?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:28 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Quote:
it could be water intrusion...

But I didn't see any evidence to support that. No moisture, no rust or other signs of corrosion.

My guess, it is a metallurgy issue. Especially since you've mentioned seeing this in a lot of steering gear boxes. I think the surface isn't hard enough (or softer than the bearings) to handle the pressures.


It definitely isn't water, bearing races are like roads, start with a small particle in the grease, and it causes a pot hole, the debris from the pot hole causes more pot holes. The end play may have been too tight and the bearing started grinding into the surface starting the pot hole and the whole process especially since its moving so slow compared to a wheel bearing.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:06 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

it could be water intrusion...

But I didn't see any evidence to support that. No moisture, no rust or other signs of corrosion.

My guess, it is a metallurgy issue. Especially since you've mentioned seeing this in a lot of steering gear boxes. I think the surface isn't hard enough (or softer than the bearings) to handle the pressures.
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