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Humbug44
Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2020
Posts: 10
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 2:18 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Yes bnam - I thought about that too, but the existing shims rotate under an axial load which might end up destroying a very thin shim I think.
If a person had a precision grinding table, it would be possible to replace one of the existing shims with a slightly thicker one. Quite a job though by the time you remove the axle shaft and figure out how to fix it back in place  |
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heimlich 
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 6615
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Just buy a new roller. There's more than just shims in the roller. You have the bearings in there as well. As soon as there is free play that free play shows up in the steering wheel. There is a lot of force on that roller and the hardness of the material show that.
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bnam
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2006
Posts: 2936
Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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What if you got a shim of the right thickness, cut a slot to the center just narrower than the roller’s shaft/spindle diameter and inserted the shim between the roller and the body to reduce the play?
_________________
1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
Click to view image
1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
1952 Citroen TA 11BL |
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Humbug44
Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2020
Posts: 10
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 1:07 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Somewhere in a steering thread, someone asked about whether anything can be done to salvage a roller whose side (axial) play is greater than the maximum allowed (0.04mm or 0.0017").
I have a roller which has about 0.1mm side play - apart from that it's in really good shape. I was curious about how much play at the wheel is caused by the side play of the roller. In other words, how critical is the roller side play?
I sat down and using the steering box gear ratio. found that every 0.01mm (0.0004") side play in the roller causes about 1mm free play at the steering wheel. So, the side play in my roller will cause about 10mm of free play at the steering.
So how bad is that? I have read that up to 15mm at the steering wheel is permissible. A person might argue that if everything else is 'tight', you might get away with a 10mm contribution from a roller like mine - or not depending on your point of view:)
Anyway - food for thought.
Mike |
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bnam
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2006
Posts: 2936
Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2023 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| scrivyscriv wrote: |
| There is enough tolerance between the cap bushing and the shaft to take up a small variation in gasket thickness with no ill effects. |
I’d say a gasket is not even needed. A very thin application of sealant should do, right?
_________________
1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
Click to view image
1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
1952 Citroen TA 11BL |
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scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 2922
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2023 9:36 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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There is enough tolerance between the cap bushing and the shaft to take up a small variation in gasket thickness with no ill effects.
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Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
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bnam
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2006
Posts: 2936
Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2023 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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I just reread this excellent thread. I do have one question - why is the thickness of the paper gasket critical? If the replacement is a bit thicker, wouldn’t a slight turn of the adjustment screw make up that thickness difference?
_________________
1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
Click to view image
1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
1952 Citroen TA 11BL |
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Humbug44
Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2020
Posts: 10
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2023 3:24 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| Thanks go to OKType3Tim - he did all the work. I just quoted his post for my bearing question |
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VDub67
Samba Member
Joined: October 21, 2011
Posts: 143
Location: Placitas, NM
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:05 am Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Way more than I wanted to know but excellent post, Humbug44 !! 
_________________
1967 Beetle that transformed into a Baja - 1600cc with full flow oil and dual ports & 2-barrel Holley/Weber.
After a crash in 1988, body parts were scavenged and now a reincarnation to a sand rail with totally new engine (2180cc with hydraulic lifters and twin 2-barrel EMPI carbs.) Construction is in progress ... |
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Humbug44
Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2020
Posts: 10
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2023 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| OKType3Tim wrote: |
So, on to the Worm Shaft.
I had to think through a way to explain the importance of the bearing and bearing race wear on the operation of the steering box. You may have to put your thinking cap on to follow me on this one. So here goes.
First, here is a well worn but nice looking worm shaft. It is the one that I used in an earlier post to find out the rockwell hardness of a VW worm shaft. There are no flat spots, but in the middle section of the worm it is nice and shiny all the way to the bottom of the worm groove. The bearing races at either end are shiny bright, but no pits or grievous damage.
Here is a set of used bearings which show no pits or obvious damage. However, they just "feel loose", compared to new bearings. They are from one of Josh's units and I just didn't feel comfortable with them. I.E. the bearing balls just seem to have a lot of clearance from each other, which to me is a sign of wear. When you measure the diameter of an individual bearing ball, it is only .0005" (1/2 thousandth) different from a new bearing ball. BUT, with 13 balls in the race, that is .0065" throughout the entire cage. In addition, the holes in the cage are worn enough that I might just be able to pop a ball out through the cage hole. However, I could see someone being tempted to reuse them.
For comparison, I have a new worm shaft that came from the TRW tear down. It is the one that I used in an earlier post to find out the rockwell hardness of the TRW worm shaft. It has some marking from the fact that the shaft was rotated many times prior to disassembly; but this shaft was never in service with any load on it.
And then a new set of original FAG bearings:
After a few attempts I came up with the method shown in this picture to measure the difference in the two assemblies.
[The machinists more experienced than I, may be slapping their forehead saying, "I can't believe he did that". But after trying a couple other methods, this provided repeatable results. And I'd be glad to know if there is a better method. The indicator is hanging out there pretty far, and it would have been better to shorten up the arm. I did have it locked pretty firm, and I tipped the parts stack in and out carefully to not disturb the indicator.]
When I stacked up the used stack of bearings and shaft, the dial indicator showed this reading:
(note that I'm going to be after "difference" reading, not an absolute reading.
Then I stacked up a new stack of bearings and shaft, with the dial indicator showing this reading:
(difference = 15.25 - 4.25) Working out the conversion, the stack of new parts is .14-mm longer (taller).
[Disclaimer here: I'm ignoring the potential issues of manufacturing variances, in order to make the explanation.]
Let's suppose that you are going to rebuild using the original parts. It would be reasonable to assume that the wear difference is equal on each end. So adjusting the big nut you take out all the slack. (Per Bob Hoover, adjust the big nut first!) So, you have moved the worm shaft .07-mm up toward the steering column. (The other .07-mm being taken up at the big nut end.) If you were keeping the original parts, and just adjusting the settings of both the Big nut and the adjuster screw, then you would need an additional .05-mm of shim to get the "no-play" zone of the worm back to the middle. E.G. if you originally had a .25-mm shim, then you would go to a .30-mm shim.
[in the upcoming post on final assembly, I'll detail more about the "no-play" zone. And discuss issues about more shim vs. less shim.]
So, lets keep the old shaft, but put new bearings on it:
Working out the conversion, we are now just .048-mm short of the full new stack. We got 2/3rd of the wear back just from the bearings! So we have gotten the worm shaft back pretty close to where it should be (or originally was). Final assembly and test will determine if we will still need to change the shim.
SO...What's the point? If you can't measure it the way shown above, and you don't have a new worm shaft!
My point is to share, that just because the bearings and races aren't blown out doesn't mean they don't have wear. And that wear is going to affect you as you try to adjust your existing unit. Adjusting the big nut has to be done, and it is going to take up the wear; but taking up that wear shifts the worm shaft up toward the the steering column. That shifts the center point of the worm shaft, which shifts the "no-play' zone. But you want that "no-play" zone to be located so that the car tracks nice when you are driving straight, with the steering wheel straight, motoring along the freeway at speed. To shift that "No-Play" zone without changing the shims means you start messing with steering wheel orientation and tie rod adjustments.
As always, comments and discussion welcome.
[If this post is not understandable, don't hesitate to speak up and I'll try to make it better. I had to put my own thinking cap on just to write it.  ]
It also will help you to review this:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/practicalwork_steering.php |
Tim - thank you and the other contributors to this post. I realise it is quite an old thread now but it has helped me figure out how to rebuild my Beetle steering box.
Tim, there is an image above where you show 'a new set of original FAG bearings'. I'm a bit curious because the cage on the right bearing has a circular mark running around it's circumference near the bottom of the balls. You mention in another post that this marking is caused by the cage coming into contact with the race due to wear. So I'm wondering if some bearings like the one you show have that mark from new?
Mike |
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OKType3Tim
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2011
Posts: 279
Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2023 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| VDub67 wrote: |
Especially for OKType3Tim -
Excellent writeup and thread. Also, great pictures and diagrams.
I wonder how the steering box for the Type 1 would be different than the one you elaborated on (Type 1).
Also, if you'd kindly take a look at the thread I just posted (https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=10006536#10006536),
can you please tell me how you got it apart? I.e., what keeps the top gear from coming out of the housing? |
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As sjbartnik noted: Type 1 and Type 3 steering boxes are the same noting that early Type 1's are different. And the super beetle box is different.
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I posted instructions on your thread.
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'69 Squareback restoration
'69 Fastback restoration
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sjbartnik
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5998
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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The Type 1 steering box and Type 3 steering box are the same, at least for torsion-bar front end Beetles. I'm pretty sure the Super Beetle box is different.
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VDub67
Samba Member
Joined: October 21, 2011
Posts: 143
Location: Placitas, NM
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Especially for OKType3Tim -
Excellent writeup and thread. Also, great pictures and diagrams.
I wonder how the steering box for the Type 1 would be different than the one you elaborated on (Type 1).
Also, if you'd kindly take a look at the thread I just posted (https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=10006536#10006536),
can you please tell me how you got it apart? I.e., what keeps the top gear from coming out of the housing?
_________________
1967 Beetle that transformed into a Baja - 1600cc with full flow oil and dual ports & 2-barrel Holley/Weber.
After a crash in 1988, body parts were scavenged and now a reincarnation to a sand rail with totally new engine (2180cc with hydraulic lifters and twin 2-barrel EMPI carbs.) Construction is in progress ... |
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Lingwendil
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Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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hsosa1
Samba Member
Joined: January 17, 2005
Posts: 1897
Location: Fontana
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| heimlich wrote: |
| I know a couple people that are rebuilding steering gear boxes. Email me and I will put you into contact with them. |
sent a pm thank you btw my box came off a show bug from the early 2000s. it does have a 311 part number and the stem seems to be a bit taller than a bug box. I also have a bug box that one is beat up pretty bad . the cover is .
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heimlich
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 6615
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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I know a couple people that are rebuilding steering gear boxes. Email me and I will put you into contact with them.
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www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
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Mike Fisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17970
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Rancho Transmission is in SoCal.
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69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
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hsosa1
Samba Member
Joined: January 17, 2005
Posts: 1897
Location: Fontana
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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HI I have a bugbox that I want to have rebuild is anyone on here rebuilding boxes? for a bug. thanks
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Just Cruzin Sur Califas VW Car Club est♤1998 |
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heimlich
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 6615
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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Those are genuine with a little VW stamp on them. I'm surprised how much others are charging for them.
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www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here) |
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OKType3Tim
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2011
Posts: 279
Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild |
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| Open_air wrote: |
| New to forum, so won't let me PM anyone for 1 day. Will contact you as soon as I am able. Thank you in advance. |
I PM'd you with information and you can email me.
Tim
Thanks Everett.
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'69 Squareback restoration
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