My 4 Seater Buggy Project

[pullstart]

Hello All, first time post here. I've been lurking as a visitor for a few weeks learning about all kinds of technical stuff and reading a bunch of awesome builds!

We picked up this buggy a few weeks ago as a road/trail toy and for the occasional trip to Silver Lake. It's an Appletree 4 seater, powered by a dual port 1641 with FOMOCO heads, aftermarket cam, redline intake, single webber carb and it's running a 3 rib bus trans and stock IRS. There are all kinds of light weight goodies on it and I've added the ammo box for some oil and a snatch strap, replaced the speedo cable, valve cover gaskets and belt so far.

I've quickly noticed that our local trail system in Yankee Springs south of Middleville, MI is an absolute riot, but there are some ruts deep enough to bottom out in a few places. I've thought about a 3x3 trailing arm kit maybe over the winter and need to sort out the front end.

With the aluminum beam I don't see any means for adjustment of the torsion springs. Could I remove the set screws, re-drill them higher and put it all back together and add longer trailing arms? Would that eventually tear the beam? Would I need to TIG in some reinforcement to prevent tearing?

Thanks in advance for any input!

Kevin (pullstart in reference to my model 502 Wheelhorse)

little one taking a cat nap on our first road trip

[oldschool5er]

I would suggest you replace the beam with a warrior or similiar with adjusters already welded in. Or get a stock beam and weld adjusters in. The aluminum beam just is not durable enough to be trying to modify based on my experiance with them. In fact I do not believe there are aluminum adjusters you can tig in. Since you are talking a dual purpose Rail I would go 3x3 with good offroad shocks all around. It is better to have it as a woods buggy because it can be used at Silverlake easily also, but if you concentrate on it being a Silverlake duner you will find it very lacking on woods trails like St.Helens area and further up north due to terrain demands. Better a dual purpose woods buggy that just a Duner in my opinion. Lots of michigan trails that are so great, Silverlake becomes so small quickly lol. Nice Rail lots of potential. Sorry I keep editing. One more thing about the aluminum beam, the shock towers are short so you are very limited on shock length if you want to gain more travel and having to tig up all those aluminum mods needed is just not worth it.
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[Dale M.]

Nice looking ride...

Personally I never saw a advantage to aluminum beam except for pretty.... Replace with steel beam with adjusters and be happy forever, and a lot cheaper then goofing with the aluminum one...

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Front-Axle-Beam-Lowered-1949-65-Type-1-LP-p/axle-beam-lp-lowered.htm

Dale
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“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.

"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
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All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[pullstart]

Thanks for the tips guys, my father in law has a king pin setup that he plans on pulling at some point to go A-arm front, maybe I'll casually wait for him to get to work! Maybe with some offers to help... and to help get rid of his junk front end Otherwise there is an old VW guru down the road that maybe I'll swing in and chat some day.

[Derek Cobb]

I think those aluminum beams were intended for extremely lightweight sand or drag cars. Not really a good choice for a heavy four seater woods buggy like yours. one big rock or just a little kiss on a big tree and that'll likely pretzel. Good news is you can likely sell it for good money and use that for a great warrior long travel beam. There are kits to build them if you like to weld.

[pullstart]

Any idea what that aluminum beam might be able to sell for? It would be nice to fund the habit, eh?

[dustymojave]

Aluminum beams are inexpensive and resale value pretty low. The complete assembly may go for a couple hundred. But for the next step up on your car, I wouldn't ditch the whole assembly unless you already have the complete one from the Father-In-Law.

Most all of the pieces off the existing front suspension would work fine on a steel beam. Torsion leaves, trailing arms, spindles, shocks, steering box, etc. will all fit right onto a steel beam. If you go to 3x3 rear arms, I suggest going to a wider beam, like +6 or +8". Too wide is not good between trees in woods. And you would need serious mods or replacement of the trailer to fit. But then with a wider beam, you should probably go for a rack and pinion steering too.

Aluminum beams were never intended for rough duty service, only lightweight sand dune rails only. If you only used it on the street, or only on dunes, that would be fine. But forest trails will cause a very short life span for the beam.

For woods trails, I strongly recommend adding front brakes. No need for anything fancy, just pretty much stock VW drums up through 1965 year model will work fine. Front wheels need to change to 5-lug and tires some sort of treaded from 215-75 to 7.00-15. Hiway tread or extra traction or even 4 or 5-rib implement. Those front tires are nice for dunes or street, but not for offroad.

Cute pic of your little girl. I recommend 4-point belts for her and the rest of you. Not to hold you down, that's the lap belt's job. To hold you back in the seat and to control lateral movement.

The rear shocks are crappy. At least some of the same as the front has would help with bumps.
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Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.

[I Ride Sand]

[pullstart]

And the knowledge keeps on pouring!

My in-laws are all circle track racers, they have piles of 4 point harnesses as soon as I get my butt over there to do some upgrades. The girls have moved to helmets as well, they don't like the wind noise much.

For brakes, I think his buggy might have stock drums as well up front, so another score possibly. I've got discs in the back, so if I pick up a set of rear wheel cylinders it sounds like I'll have a good balance.

With the wider beam, it's 6" overall, or 8 overall... right? 3 or 4 on each side? So a 6" over plus extended trailing arms like a 2.5x1 set would net a total of 8" wider, correct? Would the frame need to be stretched 2.5" at all, or would the tires simply move back 2.5" and that's ok? I'm assuming also that the front leaf springs would need to be extended the same amount as the beam?

Sounds like I'll have to pick up a few more plow accounts this winter!

[pullstart]

[Derek Cobb]

http://www.appletreeauto.com/VW-SUSPENSION/

Lots of options here that fit right into your budget. It's been ages since I did an off-road car, but these folks were solid back in the day.

[pullstart]

Oh right! Yeah, I don't know why I didn't think of Appletree for building a beam, that's where I have a 3x3 rear picked out anyways...

[cbeck]

Here is what you are talking about. Apple tree 3x3 tubular arms and 6" beam with 2 1/2 x 1 arms. sits on wore out 31 in rear and 235/75/15 front. The outside of the fronts lines up with the outside of the rears. The rear sits at 15" to the bottom of the solid motor mount and the front is at 17" to the bottom of the beam. The beam kit was from dan's [looks the same as apple tree's ?]. The front is so stiff it doesn't hardly move with 225 jumping on it. Will be removing leaves slowly to soften it up. the rear may turn out to be too soft, I will know more when engine gets installed. This also does not account for the r&p box and heavy tie rods and ends. With the kits at 1k, you will eat up the other 500 real quick. With that being said, if you are resourceful I am sure you could pull it off for less. P.S. none of this has just bolted on.

[pullstart]

[tripicana]

Some people just remove the leaves...
I think it's a better idea to cut the leaf, and retain the section at the grub screw. You can tack weld the cut section to the whole piece to keep everything lined up.
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foam cowboy hats aren't good helmets.

[cbeck]

More specific... I will be cutting one leave at at time , first from the upper packs, then one from the bottom packs. I will be cutting and tack weld [Only needs to hold long enough to reinstall] with the lowest setting on my welder the grub screw area. Jimmy hoffa stays in town and he removed 2 leaves [the outsides] from each pack. I thought I would not get that carried away on the first attempt.

The kit came with hd spindles [empi?] that have the extra reinforcing cast into the spindle and carrier but still has speedo hole? Cost me another c note to get the bushings installed and reamed with the kingpin pressed in and assembled.

Right after I ordered the kit, dan removed it from his site. Said his chinese supply for the arms dried up. Poor me, he set me up with a set of tweeds 2 1/2 x 1" arms in a timely manner. Also dan answered the phone himself every time I called.

[dustymojave]

Whoa!!!

Let's Ease Up on the talk about removing leaves from the front torsion. I strongly recommend approaching this intelligently.

1st off - The trailing arm beam front suspension in stock condition sits with the arms straight back. Applying weight to the front of the car at the bumper is like picking up a kid by the hands with their arms held out to the side. Their arms will give readily. Longer arms on the front apply more leverage to twist the springs. Raising the ride height for offroad rotates the arms so the spindles push up and reduces leverage on the springs. Like picking up a child by the hands with their arms locked to their side. They can hold their weight.

But an offroad VW hits bumps moving forward, so the leverage is to the rear, thus rotating the arms more readily than applying vertical weight to the bumper when the car is sitting still. The faster you hit the bumps, the smoother the ride.

Then 2nd - Use stock leaves...NOT aftermarket stiffer ones. More and thinner leaves in the stack means softer, fewer and thicker means stiffer.

3rd - VW wide beams use stock length leaves from trailing arm screw to inner anchor or adjuster as stock (in some). Others are shorter in that distance with the inner adjuster closer to the trailing arm end to allow using one set of leaves redrilled just a bit shorter. That shortening makes the leaves a little stiffer. Depends on who makes the beam.

But if you remove leaves, then there isn't enough to fill the hole and things fall apart. The leaves hold the trailing arms in the beam. You don't want your wheel taking off in a different direction than the rest of the car. You can put short pieces of 1/8" or 3/16" strap stock in the stack to replace the leaves taken out. But you should tack weld the stack together when partly inside of the trailing arm or adjuster round block so the leaves won't come apart.

Remember that offroad driving is offroad. The trail is not glass smooth. You need more suspension than in a parking lot.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.

[tripicana]

Also something to consider is mounting your front shocks the other way around. Most the time they are designed to be used with the chrome rod facing down, and may change the valving/stiffness. It also looks like drivers side shock might be bent?
I missed the part about longer arms, so before you go cutting springs, see how the longer arms do first.
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foam cowboy hats aren't good helmets.

[pullstart]

yeah, the driver's side shock IS bent, it's not an illusion I've done some pretty hard wheeling and it was like that when I got it, I can't imagine the impact to bottom the shocks out!

I also did some measuring last night, the front beam is 9" off the ground and the rear frame where it mounts to the torsion tube is 13". That's a good reference I suppose.

so I have a plan, I guess:
For the front I'll keep a leaf spring setup but go with a 6" over warrior beam with 10" towers, 2.5x1 arms, and stock height forged off road spindles. Bumps and limiting straps too, or could the hook and rod setup work with link pins as well? With a wider beam (dual adjusters) is there a stock set of leaves that work or an aftermarket 6" wider with stock spring rate?

I'm torn now for the rear though, I've read that stock early vanagon axles work for 2.5x2.5 or 2x3 trailing arms, but would they have nearly as much travel as a 3x3 kit with the 930 joints? or do you still run 930 joints with vanagon axle shafts? Either way, I'm convinced my stock arms are bent and need replacing but I'm not sure if I can save some coin by going vanagon/shorter arms or if I'd simply be happy spending the extra to go with the full Appletree 3x3 kit. Both ways, I'm surely convinced though it will be better than it is now!

Then I'll need to figure out how to power the car to be able to use all the new inches

[dustymojave]