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RainierSyncro Samba Member
Joined: February 26, 2013 Posts: 806 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:24 am Post subject: Trying to stop heat transfer from the roof |
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Seattle temps pushed into 90's an couple of weeks ago. I have the headliner out of the Syncro firetruck and noticed the insane heat transfer from the roof. I couldn't put my hand on it. After checking around the boards, I found InSyncro's thread using Lizard Skin's spray-on ceramic insulation. Since InSyncro has been banned, he deleted all his pictures, so not too helpful.
I do like the Lizard Skin CI product, but I've seen YouTube vids of people using FatMat type sound deadening products for the roof. Is there a consensus of one product over another? I kinda think the sound deadening product's backing might get too gooey and peel off in high temps. |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16474 Location: Brookeville, MD
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OddN Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2010 Posts: 690 Location: Northern Norway
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:30 am Post subject: Re: Trying to stop heat transfer from the roof |
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How about adapting the Land Rover safari roof idea:
_________________ 1991 VW Multivan syncro 1,9 TD |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17014 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:04 am Post subject: Re: Trying to stop heat transfer from the roof |
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Lizard skin makes two products. One for thermal and one for sound. They can be applied over each other and would seal the sheetmetal from moisture. You'd probably need to strip out a lot of the interior and at that point, you might want to do all the interior.
I don't believe members can delete photos only upload them. You can link to photos hosted on other servers. The problem is that linked photos for many reasons disappear over time and leave holes in the threads. If you are willing to share knowledge and photos, best to upload them here.
I am using reflectix from Lowes in our camper. Where I could I used multiple layers. _________________ ☮️ |
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J Charlton Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2007 Posts: 1544 Location: The True North Strong and Free
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:26 am Post subject: Re: Trying to stop heat transfer from the roof |
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I suggest that you take a look at using Prodex http://www.insulation4less.com/Insulation4lessProduct-20-Prodex-Total-4-ft-x-50-ft.aspx
We use it extensively in the installation of our hightops. Its IR reflective properties and closed cell foam inner layer does a great job of keeping the interior warm in winter and cool in summer. _________________ NAHT hightop availability May 18 2023 -
Bend Oregon - for Oregon, California- (7 tot , 3 available), Kennewick Wa (6 tot, 3 available), Small Car Performance Fife Wa. (7 tot 5 avail ), Fairbanks Alaska (1 tot 0 avail)
Future availability TBD : Springfield Mass. Staunton Va, Florida, Colorado, Grand Junction Co., SLC probably late 2023 |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:35 am Post subject: Re: Trying to stop heat transfer from the roof |
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The Land Rover Safari roof works. I had the 109 Rover with it.
On my '84 Vanagon I had a 4x8 sheet of plywood mounted on Yakima racks.
it covered the from the rear "D" up to the "B" pillar. The temp difference on a hot Florida day in clear skies was roughly a 20° in the shade of the plywood vs. the uncovered front seat area measured with a IR Gun on the roof sheetmetal.
The lizard skin thermal spray I would use along with the sound deadener.
that is only going to take up small amount of space leaving room to add more thermal material. VW used that horsehair type insulation in the roof. (Don't know what it is made of-just looks like that) you could replace that with the household insulation, but the chance of squeaking hard R foam could happen.
I would also try a "Space blanket" up there as that mylar is fantastic at shielding heat. You could put that between whatever thermal pad you decide on and the lizard skin covering. It works for NASA.
On the outside of the roof - the RV community has a Ceramic paint for the tops of the RV's that might be worth it -if it will give a good finish for the outside. I don't think you want the Fire Truck looking like crap!
Of course, you can always do this.
_________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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elizer Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2016 Posts: 1450 Location: Northern Virginia
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:53 am Post subject: Re: Trying to stop heat transfer from the roof |
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dobryan wrote: |
This does not directly help your issue but this was very effective for me.
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I have a painted blue westy top and This looks like a great idea. How much of a difference does it make ? |
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Christopher Schimke Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005 Posts: 5375 Location: PNW
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:04 am Post subject: Re: Trying to stop heat transfer from the roof |
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If I had the bare inside of a tin roof to work with, I would add a high quality peel and stick sound damper (cheap stuff will come loose over time) to stop the roof from becoming a drum/resonator, then I would add the Prodex to protect from the heat. It would seem silly to only address the heat and not the noise, especially on a tin roof.
And if I was going nuts with the whole sound control thing, I would add a layer of Cascade Audio's VB-4.5 from side to side, front to back making sure to cover every single hole, crack, crevice and seam in an effort to keep noise from traveling up through the pillars into the passenger compartment. This layer would go between the damper and the Prodex. You would need to use plenty of high quality headliner cement to install it since it's slightly on the heavy side. _________________ "Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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tjet Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014 Posts: 3528 Location: CA & NM
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Trying to stop heat transfer from the roof |
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OddN wrote: |
How about adapting the Land Rover safari roof idea:
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That's pretty cool (no pun)
It looks like canvas pulled tightly over some type of rack - I like it. |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16474 Location: Brookeville, MD
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Trying to stop heat transfer from the roof |
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elizer wrote: |
dobryan wrote: |
This does not directly help your issue but this was very effective for me.
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I have a painted blue westy top and This looks like a great idea. How much of a difference does it make ? |
It makes a large difference to my uncalibrated skin. With the original color there was a lot of heat radiating into the top bunk with the top up and it was uncomfortable to be up there on a hot sunny day. With the white top section there is no noticeable heat radiating in.... No actual temps were recorded though. Next time you are around a white Westy park side by side for a while and check out the differences... _________________ Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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newfisher Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2012 Posts: 1764 Location: The wet spot--Oregon
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:07 am Post subject: Re: Trying to stop heat transfer from the roof |
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I had the entire outer roof skin of mine coated with Line-x bedliner. While masked, I shot it with base and clear to match the van. I also have a full length and width roof rack with solar, yak box, sand ramps etc creating a similar effect like the Rover above. It makes a huge difference driving at freeway speeds and drops the interior temps. |
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bobbyblack Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015 Posts: 4333 Location: United States, Iowa
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:09 am Post subject: Re: Trying to stop heat transfer from the roof |
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I have also been wondering about this. My wish list includes solar, so I further wonder how something like this would affect the heat/radiation inward to cabin. Anyone with experience? Does the black make it hotter coming down, or does the air gap mitigate?
_________________ '87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:20 am Post subject: Re: Trying to stop heat transfer from the roof |
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tjet wrote: |
It looks like canvas pulled tightly over some type of rack - I like it. |
It's aluminum like the rest of the Landrover.
There are also 4 vents that you can open on the roof underneath it on some models. You can see the two bulges in the safari roof where the air vents are at the front. The accessory list is somewhere near 4000 items so some Rovers have them and some don't. The original seats were just a piece of plywood and foam covered with vinyl. _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them.
Last edited by Steve M. on Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Trying to stop heat transfer from the roof |
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bobbyblack wrote: |
Anyone with experience? Does the black make it hotter coming down, or does the air gap mitigate?
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The air gap while going down the road helps a lot. Sitting still it does help, but not like having the air blowing any heat off the roof. The black will absorb the heat, how much it radiates through the solar panel you would have to measure with an IR gun to find out.
Like I said the difference on my roof with the 4x8 sheet of plywood was roughly 20° in the shade under it to the bare metal section without the shade. I think it would also depend on how high off the roof it is, you want some air gap but you don't need it up so high it becomes a parasitic drag on the aerodynamics. mine was positioned so the leading edge was at the "B" pillar. It did get air under it while driving, but a lot of air gets thrown up and over by the angle of the windshield so in effect not bringing it all the way forward to the front of the roof it allows the air to flow over the top of the plywood as if it were the roof. It's not perfect aerodynamics, but it helps not being all the way forward where it would catch the air. If the Westy guys would make a cover to fit over the empty cargo rack it would maybe help the aerodynamics and mpg. _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Trying to stop heat transfer from the roof |
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RainierSyncro wrote: |
Seattle temps pushed into 90's an couple of weeks ago. I have the headliner out of the Syncro firetruck and noticed the insane heat transfer from the roof. I couldn't put my hand on it. After checking around the boards, I found InSyncro's thread using Lizard Skin's spray-on ceramic insulation. Since InSyncro has been banned, he deleted all his pictures, so not too helpful.
I do like the Lizard Skin CI product, but I've seen YouTube vids of people using FatMat type sound deadening products for the roof. Is there a consensus of one product over another? I kinda think the sound deadening product's backing might get too gooey and peel off in high temps. |
painting the exterior white will help a lot over the darker colors, makes a huge difference, really huge differeance. _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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bobbyblack Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015 Posts: 4333 Location: United States, Iowa
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Trying to stop heat transfer from the roof |
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Steve M. wrote: |
If the Westy guys would make a cover to fit over the empty cargo rack it would maybe help the aerodynamics and mpg. |
Ya, that one! I've been wondering where the guys who want something 'new' to try selling on the classified's are on this... would be simple. A fiberglass cover that has a few lockdown clamps that grab the cargo strap loops. Add some seals so that those of us who keep scratching our heads on "how does the water not get into the front of the pop-top at the canvas" from the cargo area's obvious meant-to-not completely seal to the van not-a-seal rubber bottom strip (meant to let the water from the weep holes drain out the edge somewhere).
-bobby _________________ '87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Trying to stop heat transfer from the roof |
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Got a sheet of reflectix cut to the pop top size.
It's held down with small tabs of velcro.
When I'm done with it , it rolls up into a cloth bag tube.
Works very well. _________________ T.K. |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Trying to stop heat transfer from the roof |
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bobbyblack wrote: |
Steve M. wrote: |
If the Westy guys would make a cover to fit over the empty cargo rack it would maybe help the aerodynamics and mpg. |
Ya, that one! I've been wondering where the guys who want something 'new' to try selling on the classified's are on this... would be simple. A fiberglass cover that has a few lockdown clamps that grab the cargo strap loops. Add some seals so that those of us who keep scratching our heads on "how does the water not get into the front of the pop-top at the canvas" from the cargo area's obvious meant-to-not completely seal to the van not-a-seal rubber bottom strip (meant to let the water from the weep holes drain out the edge somewhere).
-bobby |
It would be very easy to make. Adding a seal to it would complicate a simple idea and one more thing to replace in future years. Perhaps better to modify the drain holes to a drain line routed to the side of the cargo fairing so water does not drain back to the tent?
I think it should be a yearly exercise in removing the cargo box to check for rust forming under it and clear out the debris that collects under there. _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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RainierSyncro Samba Member
Joined: February 26, 2013 Posts: 806 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:10 am Post subject: Re: Trying to stop heat transfer from the roof |
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Sounds like some good ideas here. I don't plan to do anything with the outside of the roof (tintop), just inside. I'm also considering a color change to something darker, so more heat absorption.
The van has a regular headliner above the front seats and sort of a hard flexible fiberboard for the back half. I guess the fiberboard is stiff enough support some of the thermal blanket stuff without needing to glue it to the ceiling. This would be done after applying something directly to the roof.
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:15 am Post subject: Re: Trying to stop heat transfer from the roof |
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Well you have half of it open. You can try out some of the ideas and see how it fairs against the rear half in preventing the heat coming through.
I wouldn't go to a darker color, that heat is just going to absorb into the metal body, you'll be leaving skin on your door handles! _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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