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Van attempts start w/ ignition ON--switch is good
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OhBetty
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:57 pm    Post subject: Van attempts start w/ ignition ON--switch is good Reply with quote

Good Evening All,

Did not see any existing threads on this topic, so thinking it might be a weird one...

Strange symptoms after a few month's downtime: as soon as I turn the key (ignition in the ON position and not yet START), the starting motor kicks and the fuel pump runs (constant. not the 1.5 seconds)... but the van does not start (not sure I should expect it to).

I have tested the ignition switch (and tried a replacement) and there is appropriate continuity. The wiring at the ignition switch seems to be appropriate.

Any thoughts on where I should be looking?

Van had issues prior to the latest bout of downtime. Over past several weeks, I have replaced: starting motor, ignition switch, distributor cap, spark plugs and wires, and fuel pump relay.

Appreciate any thoughts!
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Howesight
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Van attempts start w/ ignition ON--switch is good Reply with quote

If the problem arose after you replaced the ignition switch and the starter, I think that you may have incorrectly connected the wiring to the starter and the starter solenoid.

Here's a pic from the Bentley:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



I think your wires at terminals 16 and 50 are mixed up.
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OhBetty
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Van attempts start w/ ignition ON--switch is good Reply with quote

Howesight wrote:
If the problem arose after you replaced the ignition switch and the starter, I think that you may have incorrectly connected the wiring to the starter and the starter solenoid.


Sure, thanks Howesight. I should clarify that I replaced the original starter with the GoWesty gear reduction starter, which only comes with one connection to the solenoid. So, I'm not sure if this would still be possible...

And would this also trigger the fuel pump to run constant like I am experiencing now?
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OhBetty
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Van attempts start w/ ignition ON--switch is good Reply with quote

Tonight I also tried disconnecting the ignition coil and pulling the power supply relay... And it still attempts a start as soon as the ignition comes on...

So this should mean that any problem is forward in the van, correct? Is there any Circuit 50 connection for the red and black wire between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid?

From what I can tell with wiring diagrams there does not appear to be?

Appreciate any thoughts from the group. Cheers
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Van attempts start w/ ignition ON--switch is good Reply with quote

As a guess I'd say at least part of the problem is under the front driver seat. How about a photo of what is wired up there?

If you still have the hard start relay installed then it is probably playing a role as well. How about a photo of it too?

Mark
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OhBetty
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Van attempts start w/ ignition ON--switch is good Reply with quote

Hey, many thanks Mark. Very grateful to see you chiming in here... Means I'm in good hands and talking to a true expert!

I did my best to clean up the previous owners Aux setup and thought I was back to stock under the drivers side (picture below). And connections have not been adjusted since difficulties began.

And per the hard start relay... I did install one of Jay Brown's hot start relays recently. Is that what you're referring to? At the moment, I'm going around it (excluding it) until I can isolate this problem. But, glad to provide pics if you still think worthwhile...

Many thanks, Mark. Really appreciate any thoughts here.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Van attempts start w/ ignition ON--switch is good Reply with quote

Hard to tell from the angle of the relay but go ahead and unplug the red/black wire from the relay. Then try the key and see what the starter is doing now.

Mark
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OhBetty
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Van attempts start w/ ignition ON--switch is good Reply with quote

Thanks Mark. Pulled the Red/Black wire and, unfortunately, no different reaction from the starter.

Included below is a slightly better picture of the relay attachments (red/black wire pulled to the side)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Van attempts start w/ ignition ON--switch is good Reply with quote

Ok, leave that red/black unplugged for now. In the engine compartment at the relay box there is a 2 pin connector plugged into the front edge of the box. Should be a red and a red/black wire. Pull that connector away from the relay box and try the key again.

Mark
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OhBetty
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Van attempts start w/ ignition ON--switch is good Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
Ok, leave that red/black unplugged for now. In the engine compartment at the relay box there is a 2 pin connector plugged into the front edge of the box. Should be a red and a red/black wire. Pull that connector away from the relay box and try the key again.


Yep, same reaction from starter
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Van attempts start w/ ignition ON--switch is good Reply with quote

Leave that unplugged for now too. Open the engine compartment wiring box. Inside should be 2 round 7 pin connectors. One of those will have a red/black wire in it. Separate that round connector and try the key again.

That is all the ideas I have for now. If the starter still cranks the engine with the key merely on then it is back to the dash wiring.

Mark
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Van attempts start w/ ignition ON--switch is good Reply with quote

Ok, one more thing. Look at the dash fuse/relay panel.
Make sure NOTHING is plugged into relay socket position #2 as it is not used in 86-91 Vanagons.
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OhBetty
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Van attempts start w/ ignition ON--switch is good Reply with quote

Yep, thanks Mark. There's nothing at the #2 relay plug and disconnecting the 7-pin circle connector didn't change anything either...

Sounds like it might be in the dash. Really appreciate any initial thoughts you might have here... But, I'll admit that I'm getting weary and tempted to take her in to the pro's (and save my Samba capital for another day Wink )
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 7:42 am    Post subject: Re: Van attempts start w/ ignition ON--switch is good Reply with quote

How about pulling fuse #18 from the main fuse/relay panel.

Mark
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OhBetty
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Van attempts start w/ ignition ON--switch is good Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
How about pulling fuse #18 from the main fuse/relay panel.


Thanks Mark. I'm at it again... But symptoms continue. Starting motor runs constant as soon as ignition is turned to ON (and not yet to START). Even with #18 fuse removed.

The further we move forward, I'm starting to think I might have two problems on my hands since the engine is still not running under these conditions.

Appreciate any thoughts you might have for troubleshooting. Thank you so much!!!
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jbrent12
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:57 am    Post subject: Re: Van attempts start w/ ignition ON--switch is good Reply with quote

My first post ever. Sorry for being a lurker and I apologize if I have any ethical screwups.

I have a 1990 vanagon (since new) and had a very bizarre problem when new. To make a long story short we eventually found that a 12mm piece of wire had fallen down into the fuse block (imagine a straw standing in an empty glass) and if you know that the fuse block is really several layers of copper then picture that straw (wire) wobbled around the glass hitting various sections of the layers of copper. One time my wife had driven to work, parked the car, locked the door and was 10 feet away from the van when it tried to start!! The dealer eventually replaced the entire fuse block gave us our 4th starter and all has been well for 25 years.
Best of luck to you.
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OhBetty
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:51 pm    Post subject: RESOLVED: Van attempts start w/ ignition ON--switch is good Reply with quote

jbrent12 wrote:
One time my wife had driven to work, parked the car, locked the door and was 10 feet away from the van when it tried to start!!


Ha! That's pretty wild! Thanks Jbrent... Funny that you should post bc i was just on my way back to report the good news:

Betty (our van) is UP AND RUNNING AGAIN... I ended up taking her in to a shop here in town and, I haven't quite figured it out yet, but the culprit has something to do with the SeatBelt/Brake sensor light on the dash to the left of the steering wheel.

When this sensor lighting is hooked up, we get strange symptoms at the ignition. We tried replacing from another parts van and problems persisted. So, for now, we are leaving it unplugged and things work great!

If anyone has an explanation, please feel free to chime in. Otherwise, I think I might chalk this one up to crazy wiring by the PO and save for a rainy day to fix...
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Van attempts start w/ ignition ON--switch is good Reply with quote

That was the whole point of asking you to pull fuse #18 since fuse #18 is where power comes from for the seatbelt/brake warning light module. I wonder now if you pulled the right fuse.

There are different versions of that module for different years of dash wiring. Perhaps the wrong one got installed.

Mark
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Alan Brase
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Van attempts start w/ ignition ON--switch is good Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
That was the whole point of asking you to pull fuse #18 since fuse #18 is where power comes from for the seatbelt/brake warning light module. I wonder now if you pulled the right fuse.

There are different versions of that module for different years of dash wiring. Perhaps the wrong one got installed.

Mark

I had something similar happen on my 87 Wolfie Westie. I pulled the connector from the ignition switch and jumped the battery wire to the black. (Ignition) The starter immediately ran.
I worked thru the diagram and found the symptoms stopped if I pulled the connector from the double light assembly in the dash module. I was happy enough with that fix that I never pursued the complete repair.
this particular car sat unused in Iowa for several years and has had several problems with corroded connectors including one that kept the pump from running. Still connected but the copper no longer connected. On nice thing about living in SD!
Al
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Van attempts start w/ ignition ON--switch is good Reply with quote

That relay under the seat..... that's the relay for house power isn't it?
Nothing to do with starting the Van.

Dave
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