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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16503
Location: Brookeville, MD
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9609
Location: Western WA
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 Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: REAR disc "CALIPER setup HOW-TO" (e-brake/parking brake) |
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Nice tool, I'd buy that, if a pro. Little Water pump pliers work well for one-time. Or 2 or 3, times, heck I only try to fix my brakes every few years 
Any of you guys game to drive 20mph and measure the distance to stop? I just count my paces 2.33 ft/step, 31paces = 72ft. Maybe my brakes are normal.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16503
Location: Brookeville, MD
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Rjhdog
Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2013
Posts: 369
Location: CA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: REAR disc "CALIPER setup HOW-TO" (e-brake/parking brake) |
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I am thankful for your deep dive Sodo and your thought process here Chris on the "why".
Huge thanks- I am continually learning.
I recently replaced both pads and rotors in the rear (small car) and screwed the caliper piston all the way (with a rented flaps tool) in when replacing pads.
My parking brake is marginal and cable is adjusted to 3 clicks to "hand stop". My e brake when pulled tight advances the caliper plate about half way to what appears full extension. See pics:
Could this be related to having the piston pushed all the way in by the tool and not adjusting closer to new pads? |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9609
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:25 pm Post subject: Re: REAR disc "CALIPER setup HOW-TO" (e-brake/parking brake) |
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| dobryan wrote: |
| Sodo wrote: |
| Any of you guys game to drive 20mph and measure the distance to stop? I just count my paces 2.33 ft/step. Maybe my brakes are normal. |
I'm game. Remind me if I forget. They just opened a brewery at the end of my street.  http://www.brookevillebeerfarm.com/ |
Emergency! Pull e-brake 72 feet before the brewery  
| Rjhdog wrote: |
| My e brake when pulled tight advances the caliper plate about half way to what appears full extension. |
Mine goes farther than yours, it goes to about 80%. But certainly it can't go to the stop. Before it gets to the stop it's supposed to auto-adjust, right?
So, how did you get your pads out the very first time? By the footbrake or with the handbrake?
EDIT - oops that's not written well, sorry.
Question re-stated:
So, you retracted the piston, then placed your new brake pads into the caliper. The pads are now appx 1/4" wider apart than the disc thickness. How did you jack the pads out to clamp the disc, "the very first time"?
There are 3 methods (so far)
1) Screwing piston out manually (per UK guys)
2) Pumping the piston out hydraulic with the footbrake
3) By actuating the parking brake 20-30 times. (per smallcar instructions)
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:08 am; edited 5 times in total |
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Rjhdog
Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2013
Posts: 369
Location: CA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:48 am Post subject: Re: REAR disc "CALIPER setup HOW-TO" (e-brake/parking brake) |
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Hey Sodo,
When I originally changed the pads I didn't have to do anything with the brake or e brake. I unbolted the caliper and they slipped out easily.
Since then I can pull the new pads out without difficultly or messing with brakes as well.
???
| Sodo wrote: |
| dobryan wrote: |
| Sodo wrote: |
| Any of you guys game to drive 20mph and measure the distance to stop? I just count my paces 2.33 ft/step. Maybe my brakes are normal. |
I'm game. Remind me if I forget. They just opened a brewery at the end of my street. http://www.brookevillebeerfarm.com/ |
Emergency! Pull e-brake 72 feet before the brewery
| Rjhdog wrote: |
| My e brake when pulled tight advances the caliper plate about half way to what appears full extension. |
Mine goes farther than yours, it goes to about 80%. But certainly it can't go to the stop. Before it gets to the stop it's supposed to auto-adjust, right?
So how did you get your pads out the very first time? By the footbrake or with the handbrake? |
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flomulgator
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2013
Posts: 950
Location: Leavenworth, WA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:22 pm Post subject: Re: REAR disc "CALIPER setup HOW-TO" (e-brake/parking brake) |
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Okay my ebrake works now. Not sure if I posted earlier but I replaced the calipers after discovering that the internal screw mechanism on mine (the Audi V were completely shot. Like, I could manually engage the lever arm all the way and spin the wheel by hand on one side, barely held on the other. I assume it all just rusted out internally.
After replacing the calipers I found that my cables didn't really work. After getting the old cables out I found some hidden breaks in the cable lining that were allowing moisture to get in. The inner cable was rusted and frayed, It would move one way with force but then fish hook. So I just finished replacing the cables. In retrospect, I could've saved money and kept things stock, but due to other forum advice I purchased the Lokar set:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CONKC4/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I had to mount the bracket to a cross member but honestly I think this setup is superior to the factory, which takes a hard, high friction angle were cable left the housing. These kept the curve in the sheath and it's a straight shot back...these cables are like greased lightning! Adjusting is a little weird but not too bad, I just slipped the block over the VW threaded rod and used the 11mm VW adjusting nut.
Adjusted away and now it holds on must with three firm clicks, held me on a 15% grade with 6 very firm clicks. It may have taken a few hundred dollars and a couple years but it is so awesome to have a parking brake!
Lessons: It didn't work because literally every important part was broken. Rust is the enemy, as usual.
_________________
She's built like a steakhouse, but she handles like a bistro! |
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casey79westfalia
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2003
Posts: 1716
Location: Baltimore
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: REAR disc "CALIPER setup HOW-TO" (e-brake/parking brake) |
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Awesome! I'm in the market for rear brakes and cables so this sounds like the cure. Any pics of the cables installed from under the van? Would like to see the placement of the bracket and cable routing please. Looks like small car has the rear brake kit back in stock.
_________________
66 Westfalia
87 Westfalia Syncro "Phoenix"
88 Double Cab
76 Porsche 914
2014 Audi Q7
2010 Tdi Sportwagen
Currently looking for 62 Double Cab, 66 Westfalia Parts!
(Rear seat and pedestal, bumpers, mirrors)
http://www.baycountrymotors.com
My 87 Syncro Westfalia 1.8t Restoration
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=418933
"Do it the right way, or you'll pay for it" |
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flomulgator
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2013
Posts: 950
Location: Leavenworth, WA
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: REAR disc "CALIPER setup HOW-TO" (e-brake/parking brake) |
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Casey here are visual details of the Lokar system. On a syncro I gained working access by removing the right prop shaft bar and dropping the prop shaft to the ground at the transaxle side.
Up front I slid the connecting block over the threaded rod, the diameters are significantly different. Locked in place with opposing nuts. The further up the rod the block is mounted the straighter the pull.
Next back is the cable mount, i drilled two holes through the sturdy lip of a body cross slat. The mounting is centerline of the vehicle. Ignore the braided hose, that is for an oil cooling system.
Next is left and right cable routing through the mechanical mess in a manner that keeps bend radii large. Aft of these pictures it follows stock routing and mounting.
And finally the brake mounting. Those brakes are actually new refurbs, Rockauto companies don't bother with paint apparently. I eyeball measured the length of spring that would be needed and then with everything disassembled cut the cable spring to length with a Dremel cutoff. Cables needed trimming too but can be a little less exact. If the length of the cut spring is necessary I can measure it.
Hope this helps others!
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She's built like a steakhouse, but she handles like a bistro! |
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0cean
Samba Member
Joined: February 29, 2012
Posts: 1149
Location: California
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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16503
Location: Brookeville, MD
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thummmper
Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2009
Posts: 2015
Location: Meadow Valley, California Republic
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 11:51 pm Post subject: Re: REAR disc "CALIPER setup HOW-TO" (e-brake/parking brake) |
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| this is too hard |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9609
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 7:28 am Post subject: Re: REAR disc "CALIPER setup HOW-TO" (e-brake/parking brake) |
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| dobryan wrote: |
Sodo, Any chance you will be at Syncro Solstice this month in Moab? We can compare ebrakes....and share some good Irish...  |
DO'B back when you were threatening to come I "intended" to attend Syncrofest too .... and was looking fwd to meeting you. But as of May3, my van's not even on the ground. Front suspension rebuild (bearings, shocks, balljoints, powerflex, etc.)
Might be a good time to replicate the "simple ramp test" so disc brake buyers can evaluate both aspects ( driving-braking + parking/safety) of this popular braking mod. My ramp is equal to a 16" 2x4 on a 6 1/2" curb. Also note that a parking brake that (barely) sustains this ramp slope is still a "weak" brake. The ramp test does not qualify a good parking brake, its just my prediction that many disc brakes don't hold for parking, and the simple test is a way to quantify/discuss the paltry-ness.
| thummmper wrote: |
| this is too hard |
Yeah might be better to rebuild drums. But drums have their share of problems. They don't have a lot of braking power in driving but hold in parking. Every few years you have to make sure the auto-adjust is working, etc. And you can't paint them red, and see thru the spokes on your wheel.
Remember it wasn't long ago (in Samba years) that parking brake performance was judged not by whether "it brakes" but by "number of clicks" heard when pulling on the handle. Which you can get any number you want by turning a single M6 nut under the van.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16503
Location: Brookeville, MD
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casey79westfalia
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2003
Posts: 1716
Location: Baltimore
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: REAR disc "CALIPER setup HOW-TO" (e-brake/parking brake) |
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I just got burleys latest and greatest new eurovan rear brake setup. I may be the first to have this setup so Ill post once I have some feedback. Kit comes with emergency brake cables,pads, zinc plated adapter brackets and all hardware,new calipers, new rotors, custom long stainless brake hoses that extend all the way to the body hard lines replacing and bypassing the short hard lines on the trailing arm. Im excited. Ill let burley announce the official news. I dont want to post pics that I have been shown on his behalf but the setup looks sweet. Once I get the kit in my hands Ill post my own pics.
_________________
66 Westfalia
87 Westfalia Syncro "Phoenix"
88 Double Cab
76 Porsche 914
2014 Audi Q7
2010 Tdi Sportwagen
Currently looking for 62 Double Cab, 66 Westfalia Parts!
(Rear seat and pedestal, bumpers, mirrors)
http://www.baycountrymotors.com
My 87 Syncro Westfalia 1.8t Restoration
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=418933
"Do it the right way, or you'll pay for it" |
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flomulgator
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2013
Posts: 950
Location: Leavenworth, WA
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: REAR disc "CALIPER setup HOW-TO" (e-brake/parking brake) |
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Nice!
If the calipers aren't already painted, I suggest painting them. I think the routing of the Eurovan ebrake into the caliper makes more sense than the Audi version. Hopefully the internal mechanism provides a stronger clamping force at less effort too.
_________________
She's built like a steakhouse, but she handles like a bistro! |
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casey79westfalia
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2003
Posts: 1716
Location: Baltimore
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: REAR disc "CALIPER setup HOW-TO" (e-brake/parking brake) |
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Im painting them for sure. Good coat of epoxy followed by some black single stage.
_________________
66 Westfalia
87 Westfalia Syncro "Phoenix"
88 Double Cab
76 Porsche 914
2014 Audi Q7
2010 Tdi Sportwagen
Currently looking for 62 Double Cab, 66 Westfalia Parts!
(Rear seat and pedestal, bumpers, mirrors)
http://www.baycountrymotors.com
My 87 Syncro Westfalia 1.8t Restoration
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=418933
"Do it the right way, or you'll pay for it" |
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wesitarz
Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2012
Posts: 1491
Location: Victoria,B.C.Canada
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: REAR disc "CALIPER setup HOW-TO" (e-brake/parking brake) |
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I finally got around to installing my new Zimmerman rotors and some new pads on my Smallcar rear discs.
On the install I retracted the caliper piston all the way in (with bleeder open),then installed the pads & caliper. I then pumped the brake and pulled the parking brake several times. I ended up with a very soft pedal. I didn't touch the parking brake adjustment. I re-bled each corner and got no air bubbles out. I was then thinking maybe I got air into the master when I did a fluid flush by slowly pumping the pedal. On the re-bleed I did a one-man pump-pump-pump on the pedal then placed a big cinder block on it,then cracked the bleed open.
Next I decided to re-set the piston. The pads were already lined up on the rotor,but I wanted to re-set everything again. Took the pads off and retracted the piston and moved it back to 52mm from (20 for the rotor and 31mm for the pads) the edge of the caliper, this time using Never-Seize intead of Loctite brake lube. I wanted to make sure the piston was moving easily. Got the pads and caliper back together and did a final bleed.
Next I hit the nut on the parking brake cable balance bar with PB-Blaster and heat from a propane torch. Finally got it moving and I tightened the adjuster to give me approx. 3 clicks on the parking brake.
The pedal is much better and firmer now.
Edit: A short while after my rear discs were originally installed by a local shop, I fiddled with the parking brake cable equaliser/balancing bar so that it pulled more evenly instead of cocked to one side. Pretty sure I would have adjusted the nut as well. The pedal feel and braking was improved enough that I sent an email to Smallcar telling them what I had found.
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hardway
Samba Member
Joined: January 03, 2012
Posts: 416
Location: Fidalgo Island
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| Posted: Mon May 06, 2019 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: REAR disc "CALIPER setup HOW-TO" (e-brake/parking brake) |
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In my experience all of the parking brakes that are actuated by pushing on a disc caliper piston with a short arm by a cable work fairly poorly. My A4 Golf parking brake is inadequate from the factory. The only advantages to this system are simplicity and cost.
Many cars with rear disc have a drum as part of the disc and dedicated parking brake shoes. Porsches, Benzes and both of my BMWs are this way, and they work fine. The shoes are self camming and the levers are longer for higher mechanical advantage.
The move to electric rear parking brakes is partly due to the increased clamping load that can be achieved on the pad by the electric motor and reduction gear. Newer BMWs have dispensed with the parking brake shoes now that this simpler system has adequate clamping power.
If I were trying to fit rear discs on a T3, I would fit a drum in disc system or an electric parking brake system. The former is a known commodity that is dependable. This is my opinion after after 30+ years as a master technician and shop owner. |
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Syncro Jael
Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2013
Posts: 2204
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: How to setup Smallcar REAR disc e-brake (parking brake) |
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| Sodo wrote: |
Discs (especially vented discs) are better than drums for stopping power. Especially on long downhills, higher speeds, and the heavier GVW that of bigger engines have offered our old vans. You can carry more stuff, and stop. They handle overheating better.
I started this thread IN HOPES we can get theSamba minds together to "publish" a method on the forum, HOW to get a disc-parking brake to work. Some members out there have WORKING disc parking brakes. How did you do the initial setup of the caliper? I composed this subject title carefully to be searchable to Samba members with rear disc "upgrades". I respectfully ask to keep this discussion to Rear Disc parking brake setup. |
Sodo, I just installed the Burley Rear Disc Kit that they offer. It was a very simple installation. Everything fit perfectly and the parts were well packaged and arrived flawless.
I did the bleed first then set the parking brake. The kit came with new parking brake cables that fit very well. I just had to adjust the nut on the handbrake steel bar up about 1.5".  Talk about a great kit!
These brakes are great. I have a very steep driveway that the rear drums struggled to keep the van from rolling in reverse. Not these! They hold firm. I even tried to back down the hill in reverse. It would almost kill the engine before I could get it to move. As soon as I pushed the clutch in, it stopped immediately.
The park brake begins to engage on the first click. Three clicks will easily hold and yanking the park brake lever up quickly will almost lock them up.
Once I get them broken in and finally adjusted I will report again.
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat) |
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